Saturday, Dec 16, 2006 at 14:09
>What would you like me to do ?
Understand that "The Law" is not always right, just or moral and inflicting degrading, harsh punishments upon people who have been convicted under bad law is wrong. I offered the Nicaraguan law as an example.
>The article originally placed in this post was about a
>prison not about the legal system that created the
>prisoners.
The two are inseparable in The West. It make no sense to discuss the penal system unless one appreciates the general operation of the legal system.
>Now how about responding to some of my points. Namely that
>the conditions in the prison they describe are unpleasant
>but not inhumane.
I'm not at all sure you're correct in that statement. I suspect they are in breach of a number of UN conventions to which the USA is a signatory. But without a lengthy checking process I cannot be certain.
>We lived in worse when we were in the Army and we had
>committed no crime.
Yes, I've lived in worse too and many people both in Australia and the Third World also do but that is no reason for us to do the same. In some countries people are stoned to death but I don’t believe we should adopt that practice either. People who are in the care of the State should be treated decently.
>Prison is meant to be a deterrent to criminals not a
>holiday
camp. Do you not agree with making prison extremely
>uncomfortable to deter repeat offenders ?
The deprivation of
liberty is meant to be the deterrent NOT the conditions inside the prison. Which may go some way to explaining why the USA has the highest per capita prison
population in the world. If you treat people like animals they will behave like animals. Are you aware that the USA also has a number of children serving life sentences in adult prisons because a decision was made to "try them as an adult" - perhaps Joe would relish some 14 year olds. Harsh prison regimes simply do not work; Russia is only a little behind the USA in it's per capita prison
population and has some very harsh regimes indeed.
The "Hang 'em & Flog 'em" brigade always seems to have this notion of prisons as being "Holiday Camps", yet few of them have ever been into a prison or even talked to people who have.
>What is your solution?
There isn't "a solution" and anyone who thinks there is is simply deluding themselves. Crime and punishment has been a complex issue for every society for thousands of years and any notion that Joe's regime is new or innovative is foolish - harsh prison regimes have been tried many, many times in the past all over the world and they simply don't work. They do, however, engender both a sense of resentment and isolation in the offender as
well as debasing the society which imposes them. You stated you had been in the army: as you will know the forces
well understand how to motivate and encourage personal development within individuals and they don’t do that by denigrating them – they do it by encouraging people to realise, appreciate and develop their personal worth, abilities and position within their “community”.
Certainly, some people are just plain bad and will _never_ be rehabilitated, most are not and society will have a better chance of turning them around if it equips them with some of the educational and social skills they need to operate at a basic level in everyday situations.
>How would you maintain the human element for flexibility
>but ensure that a fitting sentence was awarded for a
>particular crime ?
Good question.
I would ensure judges had much more exposure to the society "normal people" live in - most judges have grown up and lived their working lives in privileged conditions.
Where possible the victim should have a greater input into the process - Victim Impact Statements are a good thing.
More imaginative punishments could be used - eg. vandals could be ordered to clean graffiti or rebuild damaged buildings.
Time spent in prison should be more productive. If we want people to "improve" then we must encourage them to develop a sense of self worth and achievement. Teach people some skills, improve their education, give them a sense that if they try they _will_ find a worthwhile place in society. Breaking rocks whilst chained up won't do that. Anyone who has ever trained a dog will tell you that you don’t do it by being cruel to the animal.
>Instead of offering stumbling blocks to other points of
>view how about offering solutions.
"Offering stumbling blocks" is a normal part of the debating process and not one to be described negatively, it is simply counter argument – hopefully a process we may all learn from.
Prison doesn’t work: NSW = 64% re-offending rate within two years, UK = 58%
Site Link
www.nao.org.uk/pn/01-02/0102548.htm
The following are two quotes from a
young man called James who spend a lot of time in prison – his story is worth reading:
reducingreoffending.blogspot.com/
------------ Quote 1 -------------
The C-FAR Life Change programme consisted of an 11-week residential course where I undertook a tough structured regime of education, life skills training and one to one mentoring with a designated trainer. We also tried out new things that I had never thought possible before, such as
camping expeditions on
Dartmoor, caving, kayaking and much more, all of which taught us team work, how to communicate, leadership and trust. It was also great fun and a really good life experience. All the trainers and mentors at C-FAR treated the other ex-offenders me like real people and not just like criminals. This taught us to believe in ourselves so that we could change our lives. All we needed to do was learn how to do it and put this into practice. For the first time since I was 10 years old, I was happy with myself and how I was changing and thinking.
------------ Quote 2 -------------
I really cannot stress enough how important it is to have
places like C-FAR. Prison “DOES NOT WORK”. Although it is a punishment, it does not do anything to teach offenders the skills they need or provide the information to become a positive contributing member of the community and to start working on their futures. As a prisoner you are just locked in a cell and faced with violence and segregation, all of which is scary, often forcing people to build mental walls or become more violent simply to survive. This never helped me at all.
----------------------
Finally; keep in mind that prison is not such a remote possibility for many of us as we might like to think yet we don’t see _ourselves_ as “criminals” only other people. There was a thread on this
forum the other day about the risky things people had done during their lives – I think some of the incidents described could have landed people in prison in the right circumstances. How many of us have never stolen something? How many have never driven when over the limit? (Kill someone whilst at 0.05% and it’s 4 years – at 0.049% and it’s not!?).
Mike Harding
mike_harding@fastmail.fm
FollowupID:
470683