SA, The Solar State

"Now lets just hope the other states have the sense to follow SA's led.......I doubt it though" right..if they have their heads screwed on ...correctly

"right..if they have their heads screwed on ...correctly"

ie, not cross threaded!

Pete

Where did you get that from Footloose? I know they are exploring the idea, hadn't heard anything more than that.

Ahh, top secret sources...access to movers and shakers etc....

Actually I saw it on TV a few weeks ago. :))))

There was another report that WA would do ok in that area also, as their main towns are close to hot rocks and they had existing technology.

This is a link to a page which has SA's state of play on geo thermal hot rock technology. The map is interesting to non residents :))

Site Link

Geodynamics is the company - publicly listed on the ASX.

If this can be developed as a large scale power generation project, then it paints an interesting future. I'd heard nothing about it before catching an article on the TV.
And yet I've been bombarded by proponents of nuclear (which, by the way, I'm dead against...) and solar (which seems to be expensive for the average established household). Geez, I even see shots of wind generators, rows and rows of...interesting from a distance( but not in my backyard) machines.
Is it my cynicysim or is the Govt sitting back and throwing a few bucks at different technologies and saying , there ya go boys, see what you can come up with ? Or is there just no presently availiable technology that we can go forward with ?

Mark,
You've just hit the nail on the head with this one. First let me say we need to explore all avenues of renewable energy, not just solar. And I am a fan of the correct application for solar energy.

Now,
The energy used to produce the lead, zinc and sulphuric acid for the batteries need to be factored into the payback along with the CO2 produced. That's without mentioning the lead and zinc dust and other nasties that must be removed from the exhaust gasses produced during the smelting process.

Then we need a special room to store our batteries at home. More cost in the construction, design and approval process.
Also, how many home owners do each of us know that has the skill and inclination to service and maintain banks of storage batteries?

Then there's the solar panels, the too require energy to produce, give off CO2 in the production process and produce waste products that must be dealt with.

Now, on to what the man from BP Solar mentioned.
How long will a set of static lead acid batteries last? Providing the owner truly knows how to look after them they'll probably last at best maybe 10 years. That'll take the payback way beyond 25 years as the man from BP Solar mentioned is best case!

On to the solar panels,
We need to look at the output versus time curve for the panels. I'd be very surprised if the majority of panels have half the output at 15 years they had when brand new.
Again our payback is going way beyond the 25 years under ideal conditions!

True payback period?
Who knows, probably closer to 75 to 100 years by the time we buy a set of batteries every ten years and take into account panel output degradation, replacing them on a planned basis.

Solar is excellent, it's emerging and needs to be explored, invested in and supported but right now today it's just a small expensive part of the greater solution.

There are far too many "experts" extolling the virtues and short payback periods of solar energy. They're telling me if I only increase my mortgage by $50,000 over 25 years I'll reach energy nirvana! Umm, sorry mate I won't.

Geoff

Geoff,
Century Yuasa manufacture a 560 amp hour 2 volt cell for Telstra.

These are used in telephone exchanges as back up power. As they are a stationary cell, Century warrents them for a period of 15 years.

You *don't* need batteries to have solar on your house - there's the grid connect systems that feed excess electricity into the grid when generation exceeds consumption (e.g. during the middle of the day while it's sunny and no-one is home), and draw electricity from the grid when consumption exceeds generation. Such solutions make much more sense for the average punter.

You only need the batteries in the system if you're looking to go off-grid, avoid blackouts, or are remote and have no grid access in the first place. These systems CAN have a positive environmental effect.

Stu050,
Thanks mate, I am quite familiar with the Century batteries our friends from Telstra use and the great warranty offered.
My point in this area is they are well maintained by people who actually know what they are doing. The batteries are stored, maintained and used according to certain guidlines and thats what makes them work.
The average home punter?

Scubaroo,
I am familiar with this system and yes, it does work to an extent. What I was speaking too is the proliferation of "experts" appearing in the media asking Joe Punter to throw a cool $50,000 on the mortgage for a payback of 25 years and the promise of energy nirvana. That isn't achievable, yet.

Gents, I truly appreciate your comments. I took a great deal of time and trouble to write a wholistic response to the Solar debate.

I'm trying to supply a little balance to the solar debate.

Geoff

Have you seen Thursday's forecast ? Biblical flooding apparently.....

building my ark here

My thoughts entirely Offy - Mike Rann - Government - pollies - promised by 2014 ? Oh sure.
Ciriously.... when economic advantage is offered to the average punter (as opposed to a 'good feeling') then we will see some takeup..... its a lot like rainwater tanks saving our water..... its cheaper not to have one.

oops, that should read '...I would'nt believe...'

Mr Rann is all talk and smiles and little else.
SA doesn't exist beyond the metropolitan area and they are haven't funded any major projects outside of that area. At least he's extending the tram line down to parliament house and the Torrens. What an absolute waste of taxpayers money.
Woops sorry, off my soapbox now.

Mr Rann was part of the government that sent SA broke with the State Bank fiasco. Give him a chance and his government will bankrupt SA again.

send us broke again?...nah spending $$$ on the new tramline, new underpass on anzac highway, a part time one way freeway with exits to the right and not giving a decent north south 100 klm long freeway across adelaide, building a new city on a flood plain, etc etc...all makes sense to me....:)))))

that lot couldnt organise a peeesup in the brewery...:(

Yeah ya got to tip ya hat to that one-way freeway idea!!!! I remember it being sprouted as the first of it's kind in the world. Gee, wonder why?! Another gr8 idea and money well spent (not) was the National Wine Centre.

South Rd though has got to be the biggest joke of all, it's an embarrassment.

Meh, glad I dont live there anymore and moved to the future.

James Lovelock (he came up with the Gaia model that is now pretty well universely accepted) also has recently said that it is too late. He feels that global warming is now irreversible no matter what humans do. He forecasts massive changes that will reduce human population to about 500 million. Now there's a cheering thought.

mfewster

The prediction is that with Global Warming the weather patterns will move south. If you move the Goyder Line south you will understand the effect on agriculture in SA. It will be devastating for primary industry and the economy.

Storing water in rainwater tanks will not provide sufficient water to grow crops. It will take pressure off the dams and the Murray. In my home in SA I have two 5,000 gallon rainwater tanks and that is sufficient to run the house. If every home in SA had a similar setup it would take a lot of pressure off the dams.

I am now living in the top end and there is no problem with water shortage up here. At the moment with the rain we are getting the ground is never dry and the wet season has only just started.

mfewster, I'm interested in why you say "No need to factor batteries etc into the equation" when this has always been the main issue with solar maintanence costs. If it wasn't for replacement costs of batteries, then the viability of solar systems would more than likely be acceptable to most.

Bear in mind that any increase in electricity prices MAY relate to an increase in battery/copper/lead/water prices which could effect solar systems in the same way eg. Prices of certain batteries seem to be going up at the moment.

Andrew

No need for batteries as the DC voltage generated by the solar panels goes into an inverter which turn it into 240 VAC and feeds directly back into the grid.

You are not storing the solar generated electricity; it is sold to the grid; when the sun goes out you are then buying electricity from the grid.

The highest loads in SA are during the day when industry is running and the temp rises leading to all turning on their ACs; this also coincides with peak generation from solar systems.

I have begun doing a little research on this. Many web sites say the energy payback time for most units varies from about 18 months for a small unit to about 6 years for a medium sized one. The costing is harder to find but mostly around the 15 years mark.

Trying to find info on Germany's system, much of it is in German of course. But the whole of the country uses this systen of 'full cost rates' of companies buying the power that housholders don't use then the house buying it back when they need it.

They too lament the initial costs for the houshold but as electricity costs will rise sharply. But more importantly, the more solar units that are sold brings the costs down a lot, solar will be cheaper to buy. The concensus appears to be a 5% reduction in the cost of solar every year for the next 15 or so. Going by that it would make a $20 000 set up cost $5 000 in the year 2021.

The Germans work out a cost benefit for the household of amount of energy produced over the life of the unit and pay them accordingly, don't know the details. Adjustments are made for newer householders installing newer and thus cheaper units, they receive a reduced rate. The 'pioneers' aren't penalised.

Nobody (well almost) disagrees that at some stage in the future all of our energy will have to come from renewables, whatever source that is. This system appears to be working in Germany with 80% of people approving. Japan have a good system apparently, I haven't looked into that yet. SA want to adopt a similar system. A move in the right direction it would seem.

www.solarbuzz.com/Links/Government.htm

Barnesy

Barnsey!

you have solar power? ...work out the sums mate.... it takes too long to pay back......so what you say...we need to protect the enviroment....i ask agian..... do you have solar...you dont rely on outside power or other energy or infrastucture from governments???

try it....go fit it to your house !!!!its impractical and unless your rich very very uneconomical to do so....so what you say...Do You Have It..if not why not?

thanks for that....so i take it this system is only used for generation back into the grid(and maybe limited daytime supply only) as there is no storage for night-time use etc. :-)

Andrew

sorry, just read the posting below after i had posted :-)

Andrew

Hi,
Umm, what would be returned to the grid without energy storage?
Exactly how many solar panels would be required to return power to the grid with an optimistic 4 Peak Sun Hours per Day in South Australia. Note: Four Peak Sun Hours per Day is probably an annual optimistic average for Broome and places North!

Don't forget that at 3 years less than the 13 year pay back period your solar panels will at best be producing 50% of the energy they produced when new! ie, At 10 years of age they'll run at half throttle!

"I understand that gas/liquid transfer systems can now be used to store electricity generated by solar systems in large scale applications and that this technology overcomes the battery problem. I have only second hand reports on this technique and can't vouch for its claimed effectiveness."

This statement sounds seriously like a consultants description of a lead acid battery!

As I said in a different way, do your homework. Solar is a great but emerging technology. It is not cheap on a serious mass scale, as in country wide.

Thanks for your input,

Geoff

"just don't expect a battler like me to fork out"

I think we're in the majority, Ray.