Deep Cycle no good says Autolec

Hi there Toytruck, totally different to what my sparkie told me. Keep discharging and charging a normal battery and it will die in months. How true this is I have no idea, like you am only going what sparkie told me just before xmas when my dual battery controller bleep itself. I took the chance and ran everything off my normal battery for the week, same as you laptop, fridge, etc and didnt have any trouble starting the next day admittedly my waeo is only a 50L so wouldnt pull as much power as yours. Maybe speak to some one else from 4wd shop , but I am sure you will be informed on here on your requirements but sounds like crap to me ??? Regards Steve M

heya,

"deep cycle batteries as they do not like to be recharched" (sic)

get a new car sparky?

thats just complete nonsense.

Im no electrical techy, but what he MAY have been inferring is the long charge required to restore deep cycle batteries to full capacity. Many normal car charging units go into 'float' before a deepcycle is truly recharged. If you have proper circuitry, this is not an issue. (Anything from a solar shop will suit, but not all parts designed to charge car batteries will.)

I had a (australian) link explaining all this, but I cant find it. you'll have to Google it yourself.

meanwhile, go see someone else who knows what their talking about. I got all my storage and charging from a solar shop, not autolec.

cheers
richo.

For what it is worth and for the items you intend to run of your second battery I would go a Deep Cycle, long slow draw is what a Deep Cycle loves. On the other hand if you intend on having a winch run from it, you will destroy it fairly quickly as a Deep Cycle cannot handle High current draw that is required for winching. If your running a winch and still want Deep Cycle characteristics then you should possibly look at a Hybrid, Deep cycle qualities with high CCA to handle winching........AGM batteries have a reputation of being good for this purpose.....Batteries is a bit of a black art....

I've only ever used cranking batterys as auxilliary. I guess it depends on how much you're gonna flatten the battery, and how often.
Most of our camps are overnite or 3 days max.- and a large capacity cranker is more than enough to run fridge and camp flouro, before a recharge with the engine.
The auxilliary is the same size & capacity as the cranker, so I switch them around about every 6 months, just to make em both work
Also, having the auxilliary as a cranker- it's there as a back up if the main one dies (to crank the engine or excessive winching etc). I understand DeepCycle don't like high discharge??
Mine are rated at 710 CCA (wot's that in AmpHours I dunno)

Deep Cycle is the way to go for the purpose you describe. Within deep cycles, I prefer AGM batteries. A bit more expensive, but there a many benefits. Som good easy to understnad reading on them here.

www.fridge-and-solar.net/agm.htm

Some other good info on this site as well. No relationship, just a very satisfied customer.

I use 2 x 720cca, 90 a/h sealed lead acid calcium batteries in the cruiser and another one in the camper when thats plugged in, through an anderson plug.
They are all identical which i think is one of the secrets.
They are connected together without a battery isolator system.
The fridge cuts out at about 12v, so always heaps left in there for starting if they get that low, but generally i try not to let them get below about 12.2 v.
I have a permenant digi voltage readout mounted in the dash which goes 24/7 so i can see the state of the batterys at all times, as i have a 110 waeco running 24/7, and this consumes much power especially in the hot weather.
I have a jaycar 3 stage 12 amp charger hard wired into the system and I just plug it in every night to maintain them at there best, despite what running i have done for the day, i always start the day recharged.
When you have a heavy draw load running in your rig 24/7 you become very battery contious, as a matter of habit.
They have been going now for 12 months and all ok so far, but I dont expect to get a long life out of them, maybe 2 years tops, but they are reasonably priced.
I was concerned that so much charging may dry them out and they cant be refilled, but my battery man told me that the manufacturer had done a test where they flattened one down to 11.4v and charged it up again, 400 times without loss of acid, and besides he said, if they dont last they have a 2 year warranty, bring it back and I will replace it NP. I think he is interested to see how they last as well, knowing what i am doing to them.
We nearly alway camp as a group at which one of us will have a genny (a quiet one LOL ) ( they also work when its cloudy LOL ) going or if on our own i always have one on board just incase i need it or are staying for more than 24 hrs.
This may not suit your needs, but its what i do and it works for me.

Cheers Pesty

Hi Toytruck,

First let me say that I'm no battery expert - but I did do some research before installing a dual battery system and a battery in my camper-trailer. For the type of use you have described it would be hard to go past an AGM battery, they take deep discharges better than conventional and deep cycle batteries, and recharge a lot faster. On the down side they are more expensive, and when at home are best recharged by a 3 stage charger (also expensive).

If you search for AGM or dual battery you will find a ton of info on this forum. Try this link as a starter. www.fridge-and-solar.net/agm.htm

Cheers,
Jezza

Others have already covered the question of deep cycle V's cranking batteries - for your applications (except one of them!) I agree that deep cycle is the way to go.

The one exception - NO HAIRDRYERS!!!!!! A hairdryer run through an inverter will typically require 50 to 100 amps at 12volts, which is not far short of the current used by the starter or a winch. You will need to run the engine while hair drying and even with the alternator contributing, you are asking a lot of the battery, especially a deep cycle one.

I suspect that your auto electrician may have been answering a different question, but I'd be looking for different sparky anyway. (The solution to SWMBO and the hairdryer may require a more sensitive solution!)

John

Hey Toytruck

Cant help but I do have a question. Have you any figures re power consuption of your 80l engel. I am thinking of buying the 80lt cf model and although engel state 0.5-4.5ah I was just wondering if you had any real figures.

Peter

Sounds to me like typical 12v rubbish.

One side will tell you his advice is total rubbish and that you are wasting money etc etc , yet plenty of people do exactly as this bloke says , with no problems. So ? Who is correct ?

Never fails me that so called "experts" can never seem to REALLY agree when it comes to 12v.

What to do ?

What are you comfortable with and what is your budget ?

As I said , and I think it was Pesty above , PLENTY of folks use the same cranking battery for both main and aux. Most will change between them regularily to keep them in good order.

Me . . . I have a Deep Cycle as my Aux battery in my CT.

Why ? Sounded good at the time , and the price was right.

I am no accredited expert, but it is my belief that the problem in using a deep cycle in a car is that when flat, a deep cycle initially needs a low rate of charge until up to 11.5 or so volts or the numerous plates will warp.
Of course a car alternator tries to whack high charge into a flat battery.
So it is the characteristics of the charging system in a car that is the problem.
Deep cycles love solar as they only get a small rate of charge.
I have tried Spiral cell Optima, which leaked after 4years, and now have a 95 A/H AGM which is N70 ZZ size. I am very happy with it as it takes quick charge and is good for slow drain, or can be used for winching. I am told they do not like engine heat but mine is Ok after a year.
Regards Philip A

Toytruck,
I have been using an Exide extreme n70 as an auxillary battery in my 80 series for 4 years now. It runs through a Piranha dual battery management system although I recently upgraded the Piranha to the latest DBE180s+ system. Never had a problem. Running waeco cf40 of it which will run for about 4.5days before the low batt kicks in, also running a waeco 8lt cooler, uhf, IPF Spots, rear camp light and 200watt inverter . I had a Powercrank battery originally but it fell apart internally causing the cells to boil over making a mess (never buy one of them, you can squeeze them and hear the thing bubble away).
I also use an Exide Extreme as the starting battery and that one has been in the car for 6.5 years now.
I also heard that with deep cycle ones they need to be fully discharged reguarly and then fully charged which in a vehicle can take anywhere from 4-8 hours.
Rob

My experience with deep cycle batteries (NOT "AGMs"), has not been too good and I've vowed I won't have one again (for the type of travelling we do at any rate). My understanding of a true deep cycle battery is that they were designed for things like "go-fors" (old people's preferred mode of transport). In this scenario they are great. Pop or Nan plugs the go-for into the 240volt socket in their front room overnight using the dedicated power supply unit. Next morning they have a fully charged battery and can hare-off round town, to the bowlo and post office etc. After a full day of low-current, constant draw, they rock up back at home and re-plug into the 240 volts again. Too easy!!!

In a 4x4 it's a bit different. You're asking the alternator to re-charge the battery during the day (in most instances) while you are on the run and it is still powering-up the fridge and other gear. The alternator is NOT capable of bringing the battery up to 100% during the course of the day. Over an extended period of time (weeks or months) of being on the road, the DC will eventually (and prematurely) kark-it.

However, there is one possible solution to this which I don't profess to know a lot about, but am trying to learn about. The Arrid Twin Charger is (apparently) a great device. It is like a "normal" battery charger with 20amp output, but uses 12 volt input instead of 240 volts. It may be that this type of charger might be capable of fully charging a DC battery during a day's driving. The new rig I just bought a few months ago, has one of these in it and I'm still trying to ascertain what it's capabilities are.

Hope this helps....

Check out exide web site, or prob any other batt maker. just read in faq's there about deep cycle batts and their uses. It'd be interesting to see if the companies all hold the same view. All the best.

I guess the first question should be, Are you intending to isolate the two Batteries from each other or are you going to leave them as they are (Parallel using both Batteries to start the Cruiser)
I only ask because it's not to clear in your original post.

Your answer to this could change a few things.

Regards
japmel

Toytruck,
Theres a reason why wet cell deep cycle batteries only come with a 6 month warranty.
If you're driving every day, then twin cranking batteries is a good option.
I now parallel mine permanently, but thats another story :-)))

Cheers
phil

Hey Toy',
I am an Electrician and ended up going cheap- just to see what happened. I purchased an Apollo Yuasa 96 Amp hour from Apollo Batteries in Seven Hills NSW for $165.00 and fitted a Piranha battery controller. I run a Waeco CF50 and an Led light. In Summer I can set up camp and not start the car for four days (car windows partially open with partial shade) Minimum. I have had the same battery for four years now and has only needed a top up of water. As for charging, All I did was buy a Projecta CHARGE AND MAINTAIN 6amp charger to top the battery when 240v was around.(Caravan park for clothes washing on the way to the next possy') With a nice days driving to my next port of call it has always charged well off the alternator in my patrol and am actually a bit dissapointed that I haven't had a problem with lack of 12v( was keen on getting solar to play with) power. I think you should look for another energy source for some of your needs (reduce 12v appliances) Or consider spending some big bucks on solar. (to keep some of the power you need going back into the battery) Remember the fridge will not pull as much power over a 12 hr period at night as apposed to the day when you could have solar panel or panels replacing what the fridge uses. At the end of the day you need to work out how long you really need the auxillary power to last before you can properly ascertain what combination of power generation would best suit.

Hope this helps,

Oop's forgot to add that the Apollo Yuasa Battery IS a deep cycle wet cell unit!

sssh....must be something better to talk about thant batteries

Hi Toy Truck

After 20 yrs of Aux baterys and many destroyed, a lot depends on your battery usage patterns, charging system, and battery location.

Unfortunatly all those that swear by this or that do not spend the tine to qualify their comments at to their usage patterns etc as above and this is critical !

I Have Destroyed that many lead acid deep cycles its not funny

Most aux batteries do nothing for 2 months, but not 100% charged by car charging system, then gets flogged on a camping trip cause you parked your arse for 3 days in 1 spot, deep discharged to 10%SOC then rapidly charged on the way home.
Only to be repeated in a few months time.

One I put in new, used the veh as a commuter for 6 months, then went camping and had to buy a new one on the way out of town?.
With Deep Cycle for good life needs
1) Slow charge
2) Slow discharge
3) Not below DOD 55% charged
4) Fully recharge and a nice float (most veh will not fully recharge 95% maybe depending on Veh but 100% nah
They would last better if they were continually floated by solar etc.
Or if you were camping 1 night and moving on as not over discharge each day then not so bad.

for most of us the reality is, we do the ignore then cane our battery method

Now ask the hard question what max DOD (Depth of discharge) is recommended for good life, The last time I last asked for the hard figures was told to 55% Charged for a Deep cycle and for a normal Starter was 65% charged )

Wow pick op 10%

So look at the math

100AH at 95% SOC (by car), with 55% max reccomended DOD if you want some reasonable sort of life= 40 usable AH and I thought it was an 100AH deep cycle battery !
With a starter while its DOD is worse in my experience under these conditions it handles the abuse better.

My preference is a Delkor Calcium Starter or Marine, as they also have good underbonnet heat tolerance

The other choice is definatly the AGM with 1 provision, not under the bonnett of long distance travellers, heat and long periods at high charge voltages will cook them.

If you travel up the coast 3 hours then camp for a few days then go home then fine

If you want to travel arround Aus in 4 weeks with big days then you will stuff them quick.

Had 3 under the bonnet of the Cruiser 100 series
(I am often behind the wheel for >10hrs)
1) Odessy stufffed in 9 months
2) 2x Lifelines both stuffed in 12 months

Wellll! thats blown a thousand bucks

Gave up and went back to the delkor

Otherwise AGM great battery Good # of cycles at high Depth of discharge , low internal resistance so recharge them quickly, but it is the low internal resistance that counts them out as a long distance driver under the bonnet battery

Because as the Batt temp rises charge voltage needs to be lowered then after the batt is fully charged needs to be floated at 13.2V @ 25oC at 55-60oC float voltage needs to be much lower (Yes tested the temp in despiration)
Most modern Veh charge at approx 14V pop in a few drives From Brissy to Rocky without an Over Night cool down and its taking a hammering

So

What are you usage patterns, battery location and charging methods / voltages

My 2c worth - go the best of both worlds - Delkor m27 marine battery, n70zz size. Really well built, can stand for a very long time, doesnt mind the odd bad discharge, and always seems to charge up fully. And you get leak proof sealed and aux posts as a bonus. About $ 140 odd last time i looked.