Global Warming 'sceptics'

Oh climb down off your soap box, Barnesy, its getting to be repetitious.

Believe what you like in the papers and the elctric media. Everything is fiddled with to fit each ones particular agenda.

Hi Barnesy

I admit to being a skeptic. But I am also prepared to pitch in and do what I can.

Why am I a skeptic? Because I still vividly recall in the 70's the same hysteria that said we were about to enter another *Ice Age*. Looks like we averted the Ice Age and managed to warm things up a little. :)

In the Jimmy Carter era we were also told that the world's supply of fossil fuels had another 10 years and then it would be exhausted.

But I have done the carbon reduction thing and now have low energy globes, skinny shower heads etc installed.

Like you, there are some irreplaceable icons similar to the ones you mentioned that I'd like to think might be around for my kids kids to enjoy as I have. So I do what I can to help.

Jack

Barnesy,

I watched it, the scientist who had the gig with the Cig co and Oil Co was extraordinary... to say the least. He openly said he didn't know where the funds came from!! He must think the viewers are utterly stupid!

Anyhow,we see ourselves as reasonably responsible and have a low personal carbon footprint as such. Low energy consumption lighting, no A-C,Solar hot water,tank water storage etc. The 4wd is the least moral thing we own but at least it runs on LPG.

Good luck

Greg

An interesting viewpoint Barnesy.
It takes guts to be passionate about something enough to take some flack.
I don't know enough about it to add to the debate.
I have just one question though.
What is your photo of?
cheers,

4tysumthing

I must admit I am a sceptic, and I dnot work for oil, or coal etc company.

So much of the rporting is only the bad news. eg, glaciers in NZ are growing - some parts of Antartic are getting colder, rising sea levels will help, not kill the GBR
This is hardly ever mentioned

I agree with all that. People think greenies are backwards but in reality the green movement are the ones who just want to preserve what we have. To do that we must allow the earth to finction like it always has. The great barrier reef has already suffered masive bleaching and there will come a time when it will be totally bleached, then we may see a reason to move on something. To be honest I actually think we are accelerating into a brick wall, the green type people want to hit it at as slow speed as possible, the rest of the world wants to keep the pedal to the metal. I think we are going to find out the hard way as I just dont see us/the world really making enough change to make a real difference. I know we all know this but china builds all of Australias power plants every 9 months. So I say we do as much as possible with light globes, water saving etc, but in the end it wont really get to the core of the issue and it aint going to save the planet. To really save what we have and let the earth reach equilibrium with the massive amounts of gasses we have already released, we should probably stop emitting for a few hundred years or possibly thousands. That will never happen therefore we will in the end screw ourselves over and loose what we treasure in the end. Human nature is to do nothing untill the night before (a lot like my years at school). Like Dr Karl says, most of us and our decendants will die because of climate change. Dr Suzuki (spelling ??) also said "dont worry about the earth, the earth will be fine, its us we have to worry about", reflect both of those comments back on the green movement vs capitalists and you could say the people who dont want to change in response to climate change are very selfish and self centred while the worried people want to lessen and help preserve our race. Is all this true? I am not sure anyone can prove it right now, but we are doing the experiment, check this space in 50 - 100 years.

My bottom line?

I wouldn't trust oil companies as far I could throw 'em.

Why?

Since 1971 until March 2005, I worked as an employee or contractor to BP Oil, Shell, Exxon Mobil, Alinta, Pertmina, Indian National Oil and Gas, Japanese Gas Corporation and ThaiOil and thay all have one thing in common.

They have no morals other than profit. Profit is king.

Bilbo - "The Deepthroat Hobbit"

I honestly don't give a rats quoit. I truly don't. Call me what you will.

This recent obsessive fervour, fanaticism and zealotry by ill informed laymen (ie: the general public) in regards to CO2 emissions doesn't stir a hair on my body. Neither does any other form of religious fundamentalism either. I consider them exactly the same.

Environmentalists are the new hell, fire and brimstone preachers. "cast out the sinners!!!!" "REPENT!!!!" "the end is nigh!!!!"

I will continue to enjoy driving my V8's, burning wood fires and having hot showers for as long as I feel like without a skerrick of shame or guilt as I am an 'atheist'.

It's the pure hypocrisy that gets me. Let he who is without sin cast the first stone.

It would seem that something is up. It is fairly clear what a factor could be - ie humans.

What isn't clear is that it all points warmwards. It could likely go cold as it could hot. The Thermohaline Cycles have slowed down before. It took an *awful* long time to get them started. About 100,000 years. They also vary a lot in the middle. The last century, hell the time since Christ is a very small blip of time to be extrapolating trends over IMHO.

Depending on who you believe, smoke causes warming, or reflects warmth. Opinions vary.

So... going "all in" with a tiny % of GDP on the CO2 front is, to me, bleep in the wind to put out a bushfire. But it will make the government quite rich at the expense of us lot. Which is nice for them.

So the upshot to my mind is - 4.2 or 6.0 Turbo diesel as it's all something of a moot point!

Tim

I'm just hoping I end up with a water front property ... lol

:-)

And which big industry was it on Mars that caused that planet to have a 'global warming' ?

The earth regularly goes through warm and cool periods. We are not even within a bull's roar of the NORMAL swings in global temperature. And by the way, CO2 is like a fertiliser to plants they thrive on it ! The more CO2 in the atmosphere the more the little animals on in the oceans multiply and build up limestone deposits locking up the CO2 for another billion years. Learn some basic facts of meterology and geology !

"100% of reputable scientists and published scientific research agree that global warming is happening"...and 100% of reputable scientists say and published research say it isnt caused soley by human activy...but rather its a cycle the earth goes thru....

isnt this amazing.... we now have 200%, where 50% on each side disagree....when did 50% plus 50% = 200% ...i mustve been wagging school that day

Hi Barnsey. I rather remember some exchanges a few months ago when we pointed to some of the industry connections covered in detail on last night's program.
Member 1, Kiwi and V8 's responses 's are classic. They are exactly what the oil company/cigarrette lobbies set out to do, to muddy the waters with enough paid scientific "doubters" so that when legislation is eventually enacted it will be watered down (pun intended) so it tries to take a middle of the road position in the name of being even handed. V8, your response isn't that of an atheist, it is that of Pontius Pilate washing his hands and saying it isn't my business.
I thought the section showing how spin doctors controlled the debate by language manipulation was interesting, especially their succesful campaign to equate "green" and "environmentalist" with "radical. I had never heard of Mr. Luntz before. Wonder how Andrew Bolt is feeling this morning?

Hi Barnesy

I totally support your comments. I wish I had written what you wrote but I didn't.

The real test is - are we prepared to look our grandchildren in the eyes and honestly tell them we are doing the best we can do to preserve the environment for their future.

Regarding scientists, my adult son and my brother are both scientist in their own right having completed post graduate degrees and they are currently working in their chosen fields. Although I am a very working class guy, I sometimes get the chance to talk with scientists. I am completely convinced that all of the scientists that I have met are ordinary men and women with no hidden agendas trying their best to do what their science tells them is the right thing.

ABC and SBC programs have reported how some scientists were deceived by tobacco companies into doing bogus research and how their findings were falsified . e.g. a report something like "I have not identified what is in tobacco that directly causes lung cancer" could be falsified to "Scientist confirms that there is no link to smoking and lung cancer"

I have no doubt that the big international corporations, especially oil companies, have conned some scientists in a similar way to those conned by the tobacco industry.

That’s my soap box speech for the day.

Cheers
Phil

Take Heart Barnsey

At least this year will be seen as the year that golbal warning became a mainstream belief , and there is some hope , if we look back to the year 2000 computer bug , when a massive (now 1/2 forgotten ) effort was put in across the
world and hence a big problem was greatly minimized.

Robin Miller

In the 1970's I was teaching primary school children. Dr David Suzuki was a huge hit with me.
Holes in the sky ?
Net result was that we had parents ringing up asking what kind of nutcase was teaching their kids ? What was he on ??
I was quietly taken aside and politely told to shove it.
How the world turns.
In the 90's an environmental scientist was telling me that with just a few degrees rise in sea temperature, passengers at Brisbane airport would have to take a boat back to the city.
Yesterday a guy who cuts grass for a living was expounding his environmental theories to me. One sentence started with.."You know that CH2 gas that makes a hole in the ozone..."
Huh ?
Oh well, at least he's convinced that somethings not quite right :)))))))))

Whilst agreeing we are stuffing up the planet faster than it can repair itself there are a couple of KNOWN facts that cause a little "grey" area with global warming/sea levels etc.

1) We know that central Australia was once a seabed (Does this imply sea levels dropped and may be again rising as part of a natural cycle?

2) The length of time we have been studying the climate versus the age of the Eart. We know we have had an ice age etc previously, That certainly wasn't caused by humans (Not to say we aren't hurrying the process up)

3) The climate in regions has changed over long periods of time. (Palm Valley didn't spring up in a desert, It was there when the desert "moved in"

4) There is a natural occuring stone bank near Whyalla, I will get pics next time I am out there. The best way to describe it would be that it looks like the ballast after train lines are ripped out. It sits a good 3-4 metres above the natural ground level and is probably several kilometres long. What caused it? It is apparently left from when the sea level was 3-4 metres higher than what it is today.

We haven't been studying long enough to really know what is going on, we are guessing/estimating

Or perhaps Palm Valley, sea fossils in the desert and these stone banks were all placed there by the oil companies to "trick" us.

Barnesy
Mate I too love our Country, our Earth, it's our only home , so I also am aware of the Global Warming, Now I agree with Willem's comment to you so won't come at you with sword drawn, he took good care of that,
I think I have tried to explain to you before that this period the Earth is going through is just one of many many times it has had Ice Ages and Warm ages , It is a very slow process and this period would have begun about 18,000 y/a, What you seen on TV was what you wanted to see and go blind and deaf when someone mentions "Natural Event". There has been times when Australia was Frozen, times when Central Australia was Tropical , best that you have a look at some of the links here on my website
Site Link
Now I'm not saying they are right or wrong but the past events don't lie.
As for the reef , well there was a time when it didn't exist at all and it will dissapear again , I have read a lot in the past couple of years about Volcanoes and Impacts and it is amazing how tough our planet is. Humans are so small and minute in comparision to the universe , we don't get a say Barnsey, Man is here yesterday,here today and gone tomorrow but time will go on ,

It is a bad start to the debate to say that "100% of reputable scientists and published scientific research" say that global warming is caused by human activity is clearly wrong.

Mankinds' efforts are puny in comparison to the sun. Yes, we are going through a period of warming but so too has the world done so in the past along with sustained cold periods.

As for the legitimacy of four corners--it just does not exist!

ANYONE who thinks otherwise that global warming is CHANGING our planet at a far greater rate than natural cycles has rocks in their head. And heres why.

There is so many natural forces in play that have not been brought to the attention other than global warming im suprised.

We KNOW co2 causes warming. we KNOW we make lots of the stuff. we KNOW the planet is warming, 100 000 thermometres cant be all wrong.

We have diminished the power of sunlight by raising more dust in the air in the last 40 years by ( I cant remember the figure but its suprising) somewhere between 8 and 14%. Less powerfull suns rays evaporate less water at the oceans surface, = less rain.
More dust in the air also creates more small particles of water droplets to rain. But theres less moisture, so the droplets are each smaller = LESS RAIN. You think thats all a croc? Look at Horizon (BBC) and look up global dimming.

and all these effects have more and more impact on each other in a further negative way.

In my OWN opinoin, so dont roast me on this, is that we are in for a tough time! Its just going to get worse and worse. We need to stop all CARBON based energy emmisions now. THEN we may be able to get back to a standard weather pattern in 40 years.

Thats the problem isnt it. Governments and Corporations dont look that far ahead.
And it seems that the change in climate no matter were you live, adversly effects you. No one seems to benifit from it.

Interesting to see so many opinions and so many ways of arriving at them.

Although everyone is fully entitled to their opinions, the fact is that some opinions are right, others are wrong, and others, at this stage of our understanding, are not yet able to be evaluated.

If one cares about scientific truth, one tries to research issues and come to an informed opinion. To do that requires effort and dedication. There is a vast amount of completed and continuing climate research. The overwhelming majority of research papers point in the same direction. Not guesses, not opinions, but evidence-based findings using the Scientific Method.

The great majority of scientists, including the most accomplished and highly regarded ones are in general agreement about climate change. They may differ on minor details, but they are as one on the main issues.

Before siding with a minority scientific opinion, one needs to examine carefully the reputation, credentials and motivations of the proponents. To do otherwise risks being hoaxed, or simply finding an excuse to accept what pleases and comforts rather than what is.

The debate on 4 Corners reminded me of the Creation Science vs Evolution debate. A few minor scientists with deeply vested interests plus ignorant hangers-on vs the whole body of scientific knowledge about our origins.

Truth matters. Unfortunately, in the end, opinions don't.

G'Day all.
Don't know if anyone else has seen this before or not .There is some interesting reading here predictweather.com/ ... makes you think. Just click on (Global warming)
Cheers Boldjack

Barnsey
getting a bit thin this subject , go to this web site and READ IT

The 1991 eruption of Mt Pinatubo in the Philippines was one of the largest in the past 100 years. The injection into the stratosphere of 14-26 million tonnes of sulfur dioxide led to a global surface cooling of 0.5°C a year after the eruption. The climatic impact of the Pinatubo aerosol was stronger than the warming effects of either El Niño or human-induced greenhouse gas changes during 1991-93.

Site Link

The various threads and opinions in this post highlight exactly what the documentaries over the past few years are saying, including Monday night, SBS broadcast shows over the past while, An Inconvenient Truth etc etc.

Where scientists are concerned there is complete agreement on the causes and effects of global warning. I'm talking about scientists whose expertise is in the area of climate change and with a history of research published in peer-reviewed journals etc, not a "Professor" who hasn't published for 15 years and is trotted out by oil/tobacco companies.

The different and divergent views most of us see are through the various media forums, and from politicians who don't want to accept the scientific facts.

The science is overwhelming, which is much, much more than I can say about what we get to see, hear or read most of the time.

Remember Rule 1 of journalism:
"Never let the truth get in the way of a good story"

Alastair