Electronic Rust Prevention Systems

Hey Rob
Can you explain how they help resale? A mate of mine is buying a new nissan and he told me the same thing, I guessed at the time it was the salesman that told him that.
But isn`t fitting one like saying....hey look I take my car on the beach. Would seem to me to be a bad thing for resale

Cya
Stu

Thanks Doug,

I am acutely aware of engine cooling problems after blowing turbo in a Jackaroo a few years back. I'll be looking into the Engine Saver for sure.

Im.away
Good one mate, it's so simple and to fit and very effective,

Hi again Doug,

The guy who services my 4WD vehicles also fits after market turbos. My vehicles have always had them standard, but my guy was talking about Dencos in glowing terms. Apparently he has fitted a few in his time.

Hear we go not 3 posts in and Doug T has once again tried to hijack a thread, Doug T if you don't have any thing intelligent to say about rust prevention I suggest you start your own thread,You could call it gee I talk crap.
As for rust protection luckily in the top end we don't have water problem, so if the boat goes in the harbour the sprinkler goes under the car on return home.

Steve T
Who the hell do you think you are , I get the big impression you have got a BIG MOUTH and a BIG HEAD, in fact if your mouth was as big as your head we would all be happy , I have just as much right as you to answer or include a subject in a post, all I do is state the facts as I see them and learnt them by experience as does all other members and visitors, you should carry a shovel with you , so much crap flows from your gob it's unbelievable.

Hey Doug T
The forum rules state and I quote : We advise it is better not to respond to a post if you cannot offer a constructive response.
Just for the record I didn't say you didn't have the right to post your answer to the thread question, all I said is you didn't answer the thread question.
So the forum rules state that your not aloud to include a subject to the thread.
As`for you stating the facts as you see it, well there is not one word in your posts above that remotely sound like electronic rust prevention systems.
So for the 3rd time this week you call me names and insinuate that Im something I'm am not, and hijack a thread.
So my challenge to you sir is start another thread were you and I can have it out, all you have to do is prove me wrong on all the topics you have challenged me on.
Do you think your man enough, because last time I gave you a challenge to prove me wrong you didn't respond.
As I said start this on another thread.
Cheers Steve

Mr Steve
to start with it was not your post, it was Im,away, he stated in his post

One of the "page sponsors" that crop up frequnetly on this site and this forum is ERPS. ERPS sell electronic rust prevention systems. Now I know that there are a lot of people out there that have fitted these and will swear that they work because they take their car into the sea and they don't have rust blah, blah....
Well I'm here to advise everybody that is thinking of getting one of these that THEY DO NOT WORK! They cannot work. I am a corrosion guy. For a living I ensure that bried gas pipelines do not turn into big rusty holes in the ground. I know the theory of corrosion and I know that these things can't work.

Now I didn'y agree or disagree with him ,I have no experience with the product, my reply was not meant to be an answer but a comparision of other Sponsers , So I added a couple of good ones on the website and then to justify the mention of Denco I told my experience with Denco .

The forum rules state and I quote : We advise it is better not to respond to a post if you cannot offer a constructive response.
So why are you responding to this post , Ive seen not a thing from you prior to my post so it seems you must be judge and jury,

Your statement :
As`for you stating the facts as you see it, well there is not one word in your posts above that remotely sound like electronic rust prevention systems.
I dion't see anything from you either except an attack on me ,

you: Do you think your man enough, because last time I gave you a challenge to prove me wrong you didn't respond.

I have given you my reply.
I don't think I have caused any problem except for some reason but to upset some Richard-head who has a to high of an opinion of himself and feels he has the right to enforce rules and regulations , So as far I'm concerned you can go and get St"""d and I won't be wasting anymore time on you .,

I might have to order the low-fat variety soon!

Andrew

Naaaaahh !!!! They taste like crap :))))

I'll wait for Mad Dog and his Jaffas if you're going to get all health conscious on me.

Andrew and Gramps
Geez you blokes are game, talking about something else in Im.away's ERPS post , The Post Policeman in the NT will tear strips of you for that,

Convict Doug

LOL it's OK Doug. We were getting bored up here anyway



Bring it on !!!!!!!

Hahahahahaha

With these systems, the "Anodes" are pads that are placed in varying places on the body of the vehicle. They are insulated from the steel of the body itself and therefore, at best, they are capacitively coupled. Under these circumstances, current does not flow. For these to work there has to be current flow at the site of the corrosion. So in addition to the current not flowing, the "Anodes" are probably nowhere near the places where corrosion might occur.

Now, if the vehicle was immersed in water, or buried in soil and the Anodes were electically connected (immersed) in the water or soil (not insulated from it), and if the Impressed current controller was connected to the body panels, then it would work.

In a buried pileline for example, the current actually flows from the Anode, through the soil and into the pipe at the locations where there are defects in the coating. The pipe itself is hard-bonded to the impressed current device, thus completing the circuit. It is not capacitively coupled, it is direct coupled.

Electrical systems in vehicles use the body as an earth return path and the earth is hard bonded at the battery. So the tyres have nothing to do with a vehicle's electrical system, the body does. And Electronic Rust Prevention devices are not connected physically on both sides of the circuit.

And for those that think that the ERP systems that "pulse" do in effect give some current flow, remember this, when a pulse "collapses" the current flow is in the opposite direction - thus negating any perceived advantage. And of course, current flow in the opposite direction also promotes and accelerates corrosion.

They don't turn the car into a capacitor. Very small areas of the body, where the pads are attached, exhibit capacitance. Now tell us how this works. How does capacitance protect the metal surfaces? I've at least come up with the theory on how they don't work. You can contribute by giving us the theory about how capacitance works.

So far as the screws are concerned, all ferrous metal is capable of corroding. Corrosions cells, literally down to the size of molecules can occur on uncoated metals. So the screws in the plastic are rusting because they are ferrous and they have corrosion cells on them. Additionally, they are not being protected by the zinc in the steel of the vehicle's body.

The ones on the body are probably luckier. If they got sprayed when the car was built, then they have the coating protecting them. If they are unpainted then they are most likely benefitting from the zinc compound in the steel of the vehicle itself. This zinc will sacrifice itself to protect the screws too. After a longer period you might end up with lovely clean screws and rusted metal all around them. (Hands up everybody who has seen this!)

Additionally, some of the screws may be fairly basic, ferrous metal with few additives. Others may have zinc or similar alloys incorporated into them.

Do some homework. Look up the Galvanic Table. Any metal lower on the galvanic table will happily sacrifice itself to protect a metal above itself on the galvanic table. So zinc treated steel in a car body will happily sacrifice itself for screws made of materials higher up the Galvanic table than Zinc.

As for the surf club vehicles:

They get washed. They generally get changed over while still quite new. They rust - even if they have an ERP device attached.

Mate, you don't have an open mind, you have one that is closed to the very science that proves that ERP's can't work.

who says they do?? i know it says they do in the add but it also says kanowna bell minesite does as well....................... the truth is they tried them and they didnt work and that was years ago

>>> "Mate, you don't have an open mind, you have one that is closed to the very science that proves that ERP's can't work" <<<

Hmmm,,,
Anyone see the irony in this statement??

Send an email to these people and tell them they're imagining that it works:

Through Their Eyes
“Like most Surf Life Saving Clubs, our 4WD rescue vehicles are on the beach almost daily. The results have been very satisfactory and our vehicle is in far better condition than we would have hoped for”.
Matt Blair
Mobile Officer
Sunshine Beach Surf Life Saving Club



“I inspected seven of the lifeguard vehicles and observed that there was little corrosion and that the ERPS system was giving better protection than its competitors”.
George Done, B.Sc.Applied Hons. (Industrial Chemistry)
Orchid Beach, Fraser Island



“Since fitting of the ERPS system we have saved time and money and it is obvious that our essential vehicles will remain in service for considerably longer than would otherwise have been the case.”
George Brown
Secretary
Tugun Surf Life Saving Club



“Since fitting the ERPS system to my vehilce I know I have saved heaps in maintenance costs and the ute is looking good.”
Brett Higgins
Professional Fisherman
Tweed Heads, NSW



“My 1982 Dual Cab Hilux has been on the beach and through a lot of salt water and I am pleased to say that no rust has appeared.”
John Gorman
Gormans Removals



“ I have no idea how or why it works and I couldn't care less, I just know it saves me a fortune in maintenance .”
Paul Gibson
Professional Fisherman, NSW



“ERPS is the best anti-corrosion protection that we have ever used at Couran Cove resort, and we have tried just about everything.”
Mike Heidemann
Fleet Maintenance Manager, Couran Cove Resort

Cheers

MT

Hi Mark,

I see that these were taken directly from testemonials page of the ERPS website. I particularly like this one:

“I inspected seven of the lifeguard vehicles and observed that there was little corrosion and that the ERPS system was giving better protection than its competitors”.
George Done, B.Sc.Applied Hons. (Industrial Chemistry)
Orchid Beach, Fraser Island

If the ERPS unit doesn't work and the competitors don't work, One rust spot less is all it takes for the ERPS one to appear be better than its competitors. It's a play on words.

People, we have all noticed that fewer cars on the road are rust buckets like they were in the "old days". I come from a seaside town where rust was referred to as "Geraldton Cancer". But you look around Geraldton today and the only cars showing any appreciable rust are the really old ones and the ones that never get a wash.

Vehicle manufacturers are using better metal compounds and far better coating techniques and compounds. That is why people are getting much longer life out of their vehicles when it comes to rust. That is why vehicle manufacturers offer 5 or 6 year penetration guarantees against rust. The people in the testemonials above are making subjective observations about cars that probably weren't going to rust anyway. And let's face it, if you've spent a pile of dough on a rust prevention gadget, you are going to believe it's working.

The only testemonial above that even purports to use science is by dear old George who "observed" that the ERPS is better than its competitors. Observed and scientifically tested are two entirely different things.

My Jackaroo was six years old when I sold it. Not a trace of rust on it. Lived its entire life outdoors - no carport or garage - in a seaside town. And no rust protection device!

Come on you nay sayers. Let's have some hard science about how it is that they work. And here's something for you to ponder while you are at it....

If as they say, the ERPS system works by applying a positive 450V potential between the stick-on pad and the vehicle body, how do you protect the owner's vehicle from coating disbondment? OK, you guys have some science to back the operation of these units. You should know what disbondment is and why disbondment occurs and at what voltage it occurs. So how do you stop it? If your units work, all the paint in the immediate vicinity of the Anodes should fall off the vehicle. Why doesn't it?

I'm waiting....

i hope my eyes arnt decieving me and there is still a mentally competant adult that puts credence into testamonials adverts. heck these things have been around for years> pick up an old mag and you will see long discredited crap that has the glowing testimonials of "satisfied" customers
Ford Letters
My fuel economy changed from 4.6 km/L to 6.5 km/L with two Hiclones. I then experimented with the placement of the Hiclones and eventually got 7.35 km/L.
Ford Courier 2.6 Lt EFI

12% gain in fuel economy doing 140km per hour up the centre, 21.08 % gain in fuel economy in normal motoring.
Ford Falcon 1986 6cyl

I have noticed an increase in power and whilst driving around the city on gas, my range has increased from 320km to 380km per tank.
Ford Falcon 4.0 Lt EFI/LPG

here are just some of the ones pulled off the hi clone website - do you think they work too?
Heres another one form a Pay day lender of all places.
Terrific! I never knew that online transactions could be so amazingly quick and handy. I was always doubtful about the authenticity of these online fund-transferring services. But it was simply mind blowing when I logged on to faxlesspaydayloansonline.com it was so simple, I just filled up the form and submitted it online. It took hardly one day to get the funds transferred to my account. Thanks a lot for simplifying things for people like me.
Carey

And heres another take on anecdotal testimonial

Anecdotes are unreliable for various reasons. Stories are prone to contamination by beliefs, later experiences, feedback, selective attention to details, and so on. Most stories get distorted in the telling and the retelling. Events get exaggerated. Time sequences get confused. Details get muddled. Memories are imperfect and selective; they are often filled in after the fact. People misinterpret their experiences. Experiences are conditioned by biases, memories, and beliefs, so people's perceptions might not be accurate. Most people aren't expecting to be deceived, so they may not be aware of deceptions that others might engage in. Some people make up stories. Some stories are delusions. Sometimes events are inappropriately deemed psychic simply because they seem improbable when they might not be that improbable after all. In short, anecdotes are inherently problematic and are usually impossible to test for accuracy.

and last but not least what Wikkepedia has to say about testimonials
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Testimonial

I agree with you.. but I guess the next comment is that because you drive a Toyota, then that is the reason you have no rust :-)

Lifesavers here in Queensland use them and they do make a difference.

Cheers

mark T

Ok alloy c/t... I've got the piece of paper to say I'm a rustologist. Where's yours?
To be exact I've done the Australian Corrosion Association' s corrosion monitoring course. I also use extensively a reference by Peabody that covers all of this stuff. What do you use? I do this for a living. What do you do?

As I said, I get to se a lot of hardcore scientific data and evidence about corrosion, why it happens and how it is treated.

What rust proofing company do I work for?...none. If you read my posts you would see that I test buried gas pipelines for a living. I am what is called a corrosion protection technician. I don't have vested interest in any protection systems of any kind.

The real one's that I work on have been in place for 25 years and we simply maintain them. The real ones use the principle that the fake ones aspire to. That's how I know they don't work.

Tell us what your qualifications are and we can give your comments some credence. You argue that the American units have been banned from advertising that they cure rust. Yep, and because they say they can PREVENT rust - they can't. Full stop.

OK so you've asked me to declare my vested interests. I have. Now, what are yours? And What about Mark T? By the way, do you guys still believe that the earth is flat?

Now that is a new beaut bullsheet degree that I or anyone else has ever heard of ,,,"rustologist " dream on ,keep reading ,play the net with your bull and just make sure the "piece of paper" is actually big enough to wipe your anus with ,, don't need fake pieces of paper as a "qualification" ,, as stated previously , the only part of any electronic rust prevention system banned in the US + Canada is adverts to "cure " NOT PREVENT ," ERGO , it is not illegal to have or sell an electronic rust PREVENTION system , the only people who actually discredit the electronic systems are those who have a vested interest in chemical systems which as stated in a previous reply are a $$$$$ draining system due to the constant renewal required ,, spray on any chemical or even natural coating you damn well like , drive on the sand long enough and you have sand blasted it off , the electronic systems work from the inside out NOT as a coating that can and is pierced and worn away and needs constant renewal. PS , pray tell me and all the others on the forum how one gets to be a "rustoligist" and for the record have you ever actually seen the Moonie pipeline which "ooh no " is protected from rust ELECTRONICALY.

Geez fella, what are you on? All pipelines are protected electrically (as opposed to electronically). Most of the pipelines I work on use impressed current systems. These systems work by having an Anode buried in the soil near the pipeline. The Anode is connected to the positive connection of a Transformer/Rectifier Unit (TRU) or similar. The negative side of the TRU is connected directly to the pipe being protected. The circuit is completed by the passage of current from the Anode through the soil to the pipe.

Sacrificial systems work in a similar manner. A buried sacrificial Anode made of Zinc will hold a steel pipe between approximately -1.2 Volts DC and -1.5 Volts DC. (When measured witha Cu/CuSO4 reference cell). Again the current must also pass through the soil to complete the circuit.

Corrosion is both an electrical and chemical reaction. Corrosion prevention is also both electrical and chemical, with the objective being to reverse the corrosion process using electricity connected in the correct polarity. Impressed current systems do this by using a source of electricity, be it Mains supply, Solar supply or whatever, which is converted to the appropriate DC potential to constantly supply current to impede corrosion. Sacrificial Anodes use materials that also create current flow as the material decays, thus sacrificing itself to protect the structure you are interested in. Both methods need a complete electrical connection to work.

So I reiterate, because there is no return path for the current with the ERP systems, the electro-chemical processes of corrosion are not halted. These systems are trying to emulate the impressed current systems I have been describing. The problem is, one thing is missing - current flow.

If you really want to get technical, another problem would arise if the ERP systems really worked. To maintain a piece of mild steel in good order, it must have an Off Potential of no less than -0.85V and no more (ideally) than -1.100 V. During the chemical process that is constantly occuring under these optimal conditions, hydrogen is produced and essentially forms a very thin film between the coating and the steel. If the potential being applied to prevent corrosion exceeds -1.100 V, the hydrogen builts up more than is desirable. If the build-up is excessive, it causes the coating (in this case the paintwork of a car) to disbond from the metal. This then reduces the effectiveness of the coating. If ERPS are correct when they state that they apply 450 V to the vehicle and IF current was really flowing the hydrogen buildup would be immense. The resultant disbondment would be worse than the rust you are trying to prevent.

Take or leave my qualifications mate. I have them. I used the term rustologist for a bit of levity in what is becoming a bit of an angry thread. If you had read my last post to you you will have seen that I used my correct title of Corrosion Protection Technician in the third paragraph. You, on the other hand, have still not told us how it is that you speak with such authority. At least Mark T has been upfront and told us what his background is. He just believes in the concept for vehicles. Fair enough, but he's also wrong.

I put this thread up in the hope that many readers would see the wisdom of not purchasing one of these systems and spending it on something more worthwhile. I have absolutely no vested interest in any form of coatings, protections or otherwise. I actually paid for a coating protection system for my new vehicle and can't even remember what the brand name of it is. It was part of an entire package that protected the vinyl, leather, plastic and metal of the vehicle, so I got it.

I'm not even sure if it is a Land Rover product or an aftermarket product.

And no, I've never worked on the Moomba line. I may do at some time in the future. I work on various lines in WA. The most significant being the Dampier to Bunbury NGP. This pipeline by the way, is also protected using the miracle of electricity, just as you say the Moomba line is. Amazing eh?

Anyway, you are clearly an angry little person who would like to see people waste their money on these useless devices, so I make an exception for you. I would encourage YOU to go out and buy one because YOU deserve it.

Gosh, I've just read between the lines of your post. If I haven't worked on the Moonie pipeline, then I'm not qualified! I'd better arrange a field visit ASAP, so I can rise to level you expect of me. Obviously the Moonie pipeline is the benchmark by which all other pipelines must be judged.

I also feel I must correct you on this quote from you...

"the only people who actually discredit the electronic systems are those who have a vested interest in chemical systems which as stated in a previous reply are a $$$$$ draining system due to the constant renewal required "

So far, looking at the replies to this thread, I don't believe we have had even one respondent who agrees with me that has links to any form of coating products. I can't see Davoe in Nullagine making a quid from them in a town the size of his. And I know Doug T drives escorts for oversized loads. So don't accuse me of making sweeping generalisations mate...you're the Master of them.

interesting info. As a laymen i would run along the gas pipeline between Norseman and widgiemooltha and came accross (I forget exactly) but it was a cathodic protection inspection or something thingy and i thought to myself maybe these rust protection systems DO work but all explained now

Can I also add that I can't see that such a low current would even be strong enough to complete a circuit from the pads attached inside the rear quarter panels of my wagon back through to the unit mounted on the inner guard right beside my battery.
For my fridge I have to run 6mm cable to eliminate the majority of the voltage loss for my fridge in the back.
And with an ERPS they can run a 2mm cable all the way to the pad at the back which must only be carrying an initially minute current. Over that distance the voltage would have to drop until it is just about non-existent.
How do I know this?
Because I can leave my Landcruiser unattended for 6 or 8 weeks with the ERPS working the entire time, and there is no difference in the cranking speed of the engine and it will still start immediately.
There are 8 of these pads mounted around my vehicle, which would have to add up to something substantial in terms of current draw.

My guess is that the only thing that my battery could run continuously for that amount of time without draining the battery would be an LED, and the minor amount used for retaining the memory in the stereo.

Still 17 years out of one LED on the ERPS unit says something about their resilience of their LED's to the hostile environment found in a hot and dusty engine bay.

Cheers,
Brett

This just goes on and on... at least it's not what fridge is best.

Salt water is very conductive electrically.... that's what makes things go rusty faster in salt water than fresh water. When your car goes rusty it is a passage of electrons that causes the rust. EPRS and other systems use very little current.. your starter will turn over easily.. your battery won't miss it. It doesn't need a lot of current to work as the rusting process is current at an incredibly low rate.

Paint work.. a rust prevention system won't stop your paint oxidizing.. in fact for it to work it relies on your car having a good coat of paint all over.

No I'm not a rustologist, nor a gynaecologist for that matter. I am an auto electrician who went on to study electrical engineering and no I don't have an EPRS. I built my own capacitance unit and have it on an old classic car I restored. My Disco doesn't have one because I turn them over every 3 years on lease.

And by the way, I have nothing to sell as I am now semi retired, and have not worked in the automotive industry for over 10 years now. And I have never sold electronic rust proofing systems.

That's it, I'm going to bed.

I hope we can argue over the outcome on the NSW election next time I log on.

Cheers

mark T

I've heard that an unexpected side-effect of this is that you also don't get attacked by Vampires. Lucky eh?

Fizz,

That is why vehicles in Pitt St have a higher rate of rust that vehicles parked in Oxford St.

Wayne

And no I have no vested interest in promoting these systems, In fact had never heard of them before buying the Nav.
Ian

Hi Ian.

I don't know whether you are technical or whether you have access to a multimeter, but if yoy are, and do, try this.

Measure the voltage between the battery's +ve terminal and -ve terminal. Now measure the voltage between the battery's positive terminal and each location on the mudguards, where the device is connected. Same or very close to being the same? Also, try this: Measure between the -ve terminal of the battery and each of the above points. 0 volts or so damn close it doesn't matter?

For your device to work, the reading you get with the second test must be at least 0.85 V more negative than the -Ve connection of your battery. If it isn't, nothing is happening. Now, can someone tell me how to make the car body 0.85 volts more negative than the negative battery connection (that is hard connected to the body anyway)?

Additionally, measure between the -ve battery terminal and any part of the car body that isn't coated - nuts, studs, brackets, whatever. 0 Volt difference? I'll bet that's what you see. Remember, if there is no difference between the -ve terminal of the battery and any other part of the body, nothing is happening.

Mate, you have device that does nothing on a vehicle with quality steel and coatings that isn't going to rust anyway. Do yourself a favour. Go to some car yards and look at vehicles of same make and age. Most, if not all, will be in the same condition as yours.

Im.away,
The DC voltage reading on the bodywork of the vehicle with my cheap multimeter is minus .06v WRT battery negative. It is a long way from your requirement of - 0.85v, however it does show that something is happening. Without a CRO I cannot tell but it could have an AC signal on a DC level. Most multimeters cannot read high frequency AC waveforms and that would explain why the voltage reads low. An AC voltage biassed to a negative DC level will give you an average negative DC level not able to be measured without proper equipment, but will provide the neccessary voltage and current you state is needed.
By the way, if current does not flow in a capacitively connected system I would like to know how a radio, television, computer or anything electronic works at all !! Also cars in caryards have had the rust patches fixed.
Until I find a website that provides the technical information on how they work etc and I can prove the designers are wrong, I will have to take the word of the manufacturers, and combined with the indications on my vehicle will continue to assume they work. With 35 years experience on sophisticated electronic systems I have learnt that non techos would prefer to believe that things beyond their comprehension are just not possible, and therefore could not possibly work.

I bet you don't even watch Startrek?

Ian

G'day again Ian,

Your results confirm my suspicion...nothing is happening. Let's assume that you are right about the AC superimposed over the DC system of the car. The first thing to remember is that Cathodic protection only works when the current flow is in the correct polarity. So for one half-cycle you may be getting some benefit, but for the opposite half cycle you will undo anything that you have achieved. So AC is no good to you. In fact, we go to great lengths to mitigate the presence of AC signals on gas pipelines.

Now take the example of the capacitive coupling. No current actually flows through the capacitive connection. Capacitors charge, they don't conduct. That is why they have a dielectric compound between their plates - to insulate the plates. While a capacitor is charging you do get a current flow of sorts - from both sides of the circuit to the plates of the capacitor. Once charged, this pseudo-current stops. The charge across the capacitor is equal and opposite.

To get the current flow again, you must short out or reverse the connection to the capacitor, which of course makes the current "flow" in the reverse direction. Again, this defeats the requirement of a CP system to be of the correct polarity. So in a nutshell, the instantaneous charging of the capacitor might give a milli-fart of protection, but then nothing, nil, nada. Pulsing or AC connections give equally as much protection time as they give damaging time. Remember..a reverse connection promotes corrosion.

With regard to your question about radios, tv's etc. Don't forget that many of the capacitors in these devices are being used in AC situations. In a CP system we are strictly talking DC. Capacitors used in DC scenarios are more often than not used to filter ac ripple or smooth out uneven DC amplitude from a DC signal. They do not pass current across their plates.

Now to address the 60mV shift you did see. It is more than likely just the volt drop across your leads. As you say, it is well short of the potential required to ensure preservation of metal. The natural potential of the steel itself is higher than that (about -0.55V to -0.65V when measured with a Cu/CuSO4 reference cell to soil). Natural potential is what you would see if you buried a piece of steel in soil, leaving just a small piece exposed that you can connect a meter to. On the other side of the meter you connect a reference cell which is placed in the soil also, allowing the circuit to be completed. All metals have a natural potential, it simply varies from metal to metal.

So from what you have measured, and what the accepted understanding of the corrosion process is - and this knowledge has been around for a very long time - your device is doing absolutely diddly squat. In fact, if you cock it up, you might actually get it so wrong that you could well promote corrosion. You did, after all, say that your particular system is hard-bonded in your vehicle - not capacitively coupled. Just imagine if your system goes wrong and starts to resistively allow a positive connection to your points of attachment. You'll end up with two holes in your car! That's if your battery doesn't keep going flat first.

I have to say, for a person who says they have been involved with sophisticated electronic equipment for 35 years, you seem to have little understanding of electrical fundamentals. And by the way, I don't get the Startrek thing? I've watched it. It's Sci-Fi. So What?

Go ahead, take the word of the shysters. They have to make a living too and they rely on people like you to unerringly believe in the bulldust they peddle. Like I said, I live at a seaside town and the last 7 vehicles that I have owned have not shown even a single trace of rust and not one of them has ever had one of these ERP Devices.

Whatever makes you happy. Like I said, I was trying to warn people who may have been thinking of buying one of these things. Some will read my posts and believe me and hopefully not waste their money - and some will take the word of the ERP system sellers (with absolutely no detailed science to support it) and buy one anyway. At least I have offered an alternative.

I don't know how much credence you give to Dr Karl, but he thinks ERP systems are a crock too.

Hi again,
Give me a break! Voltage drop across the leads? Not likely in a high impedance multimeter measuring volts. As I said I am in the dark as much as you on how these things work or not. There are many different scenarios which could be expounded on the workings of these things. Until I see a circuit or a detailed explanation to analyse I must believe my observations on my own vehicle.
Do they actually work using cathodic protection? I doubt it. As you said, you need a reverse voltage to that generated between steel and water or soil for them to work. (i.e. cancel out the naturally generated voltage.)
"The natural potential of the steel itself is higher than that (about -0.55V to -0.65V when measured with a Cu/CuSO4 reference cell to soil). Natural potential is what you would see if you buried a piece of steel in soil."
Your words!! My car does not have any part of it buried in soil, ever! I hope! Therefore it does not have a naturally generated voltage to cancel out. If you applied a DC voltage across junctions in a car body (especially different metals) you will induce corrosion. Have you ever seen wiring in a house that runs on DC. Always very corroded, Hence the use of AC in modern day housing. Zero corrosion. Maybe an AC voltage induced in the bodywork of a car helps to cancel the DC component produced by using the bodywork as a battery return path. Maybe it has something to do with eddy currents induced into the metal; who knows. If you would care to grab hold of an electric fence you may change your mind about current flowing in a capacitor. 10kv on your fingers and earth on your toes can make you jump. It comes from a capacitor and can travel 300 ks along steel fence wire but you will feel it. Boy will you!!
It appears that you don't get the gist of an AC voltage on a DC level. In effect it is a varying DC voltage below (or above) 0V. Whether your Rustologist?? quals (your certificate appears to show that it was a 1 day course and I note you have a lot of course notes to refer to) allow you to comprehend this appears doubtful (I notice you didn't publish your electronic certs) .
To sum up 1. I believe it works,
2. I believe you are qualified in what you do (cathodic protection in pipelines) and you are correct in what you say
3. I don't believe cathodic protection it the method in use, and
4. Therefore you are not qualified in ERPS systems.
Cheers,
Ian
Ref Startrek
Its a story so far advanced in technology that most non techos will not believe it can happen and therefore wont watch it.

This starting to get tiresome, but here goes, point by point....

Volt drop across the leads. Unless you are telling me that your leads have no resistance, then yes there will be a volt drop across the leads. It's bloomin' Ohm's Law for goodness sake. I concede that I did not include that there would also be some resistance in the earth path via the bodywork and between them that would account for the very small potential difference between the battery and the chassis that you saw on your meter. However, you infer that the voltage you see might be AC. Now you should know that your meter is reading the RMS value of an AC signal if it is present as you suggest. You would also know that the Peak to Peak value of an AC signal is 1.4 x the RMS value of the AC signal. So if you are indeed reading an AC signal of 0.06V, the maximum value of that AC signal would be 0.06 x 1.4 Volts or 0.084 volts or 84 millivolts. That is 10% of the value required to protect steel. Whatever you're seeing, it's doing diddly squat.

You ask "Do they actually work using cathodic protection?" I tell you what, you do a Google and see if there is any other system out there (electrical that is - we know coatings and the compounds in the steel make a difference) and come back to me with the answer. Why don't you email ERPS and ask them for the clear, unequivocal theory behind their product? You're the one disagreeing with the accepted principles of protecting steel, not me.

My reference to the natural potential of steel was made so that you would understand why you need to shift the potential of the steel to at least -0.85V. You see it initially has to be more negative than the natural potential of the steel or nothing happens. So in effect need to shift the potential of the steel by at least -0.3 Volts. And that is the absolute lower limit.

"Until I see a circuit or a detailed explanation to analyse I must believe my observations on my own vehicle." Right, how much more detailed do I need to be? Hell, you've almost done the course! For a circuit, do a Google on "corrosion cell" It really is corrosion at its fundamental level. Then Google "cathodic protection" and have a read. You will see how cathodic protection can prevent the formation of corrosion cells. As far as your car goes - how will you ever know if it wasn't going to rust without your device? It seems a bit like eating shark cartilage all your life to prevent the arthritis you might never get.

You are partially correct about why we use AC these days rather than DC. There are other reasons including the effect of I squared R losses (sorry I don't know how to put the superscript in the formula using this forum), ability to change the voltage easily using transformers, Ability to use higher transmission voltages and so on. But AC has no place in protecting metal. In fact in the cathodic protection field it was once believed that AC induction in CP systems was innocuous - i.e. had no overall effect - but now they aren't so sure. The current thinking is that the presence of AC signals superimposed over the DC potential can actually be damaging. The guy who employs me is currently attending conferences in the United States where papers are being given on this very subject. Now if you do the reading I have suggested, we should be able to agree on one thing - you can only protect a piece of steel electrically by applying a DC potential that is opposite to the flow of current produced during the process of corrosion. So if we examine just one cycle of an AC signal, the negative half cycle may well assist your cause, but for every negative half cycle there is a positive half cycle and this will promote, even accelerate corrosion. There's no other way to look at it - AC cannot stop corrosion.

Yes, in DC wiring systems there can be significant corrosion and this is why choosing whether you have negative earth or positive earth is critical. It is also why vehicle manufacturers constantly try to improve coating systems. And when manufacturers start offering long "penetration" guarantees, you know they've got a handle on it.

"you may change your mind about current flowing in a capacitor. 10kv on your fingers and earth on your toes can make you jump. It comes from a capacitor and can travel 300 ks along steel fence wire but you will feel it. Boy will you!! " Well for starters, electric fences and CP technicians have a long, non-harmonious relationship. During our annual surveys I average about three or four whacks and no, it ain't fun. But it also has nothing to do with the argument. All that is happening when you get whacked by an electric fence is that the electrons race through you to meet up with the protons. The current flows away from the capacitor, through you, not the capacitor. Then the capacitor has to recharge via the controller circuit so the whole thing goes in reverse. Read that carefully....reverse...reverse....you cannot protect metal if you keep doing these reversals!! You can't let go of the capacitor thing can you? OK let's examine the capacitor model. If you connect a DC source across a capacitor - say a battery - we both know that electrons will accumulate on one side of the capacitor and positive charges (call them what you like but they were protons in my day) will accumulate on the other side of the capacitor. This can only occur on a one-to-one basis, one electron per one positive charge. Eventually the charge across the capacitor will almost equal the potential of the battery. As you know, this happens quite rapidly. So for just an instant the electron flow to the negative plate is actually current. But its not current flowing through the capacitor. Ok, now the capacitor is charged - now what? As soon as the capacitor is charged, current flow ceases except for maybe an infinitesimal leakage across the dielectric. So we are back to the old "no current is flowing, how can we protect the steel?" scenario. So to have current resume to flow, all you can do is either short the capacitor out in which case the electrons and positive charges go back the opposite way to meet each other or reverse the connection of the source, which has the same effect. Net result? Current flowing in the wrong direction But not through the capacitor) and thus aiding or promoting corrosion.

You may wonder why I keep harping about no current going through the capacitor. It's because most of the ERP Systems advertised today state that this is how they connect. To protect steel you need a current loop. The current leaves the source, goes through the anode ito some sort of conducting medium such as water or soil, flows into the pipe which is hard connected to the other side of the source. I'll say it one more time, a capacitor does not conduct current, it merely builds in charge until it is saturated, at which time all current flow in the circuit stops. The only way to get it to flow again is to keep increasing the source voltage - but you have to stop eventually, or reverse the polarity. Then current flows the other (wrong) way. The net result is as much protection was achieved as promotion of corrosion was achieved.

Now for this "In effect it is a varying DC voltage below (or above) 0V." Yes! Yes! and in the -ve direction it's fine, but as it goes in the positive direction it's working against you.

"your certificate appears to show that it was a 1 day course and I note you have" ....blah, blah. No, it wasn't a one day course and yes there weren't a hell a lot of notes - it's pretty simple stuff (although you don't get it). Why do you want electronics certs? I thought we we talking about protection systems? For the record: Joined PMG's dept 1973 as an Apprentice Telecommunications Tradesman. In-house training until promoted to Technician in training in 1974 and went to Fremantle Technical college to do the Diploma in Electronic Engineering. From there, qualified as a technician, then Technical Officer. In 1987 I switched to what was The State Energy Commision of Western Australia as a Communications technician and eventually became an Engineering Officer. This is when I first got involved with pipelines. In 2001 I struck out on my own and started a computer consultancy which I still have although as I did more Cathodic Protection work it was clear to me where the money is.

I could dig up documentation for all of this, but what's the point? You and the other Luddites have your beliefs - even if the fundamentals you apply are completely wrong - so it wouldn't matter what else I said or posted, you wouldn't take any notice anyway.

This is absolutely my last post (pun intended) on this matter as you clearly DO NOT GET IT. I can do no more for you.

As you say booring!!!!

peak to peak voltage is 2.8 x RMS No wonder PMG had trouble with phones!!!

Ohms law on .06 v and 10megohm input impedance chr!!st my calculator cant even work out how low that is. 0 Fn volts!!!!!!!!!!
Maybe you should do a Google. There are many electronic rust inhibiting systems out there
Spent a bit of time researching on line last night. Most of the systems that I found use electrostatic voltage on the steel to provide protection, NOT cathodic protection ( I seem to remember suggesting something like this B4).

"So the system operates by applying one of the principles of electrochemistry - that an oxidation reaction can be slowed or retarded by creating a surplus of electrons to the metal from a supplementary source.
That means that every possible seam, spot-weld, bolt, screw or panel that's earthed to the vehicle is protected from corrosion by this surplus of electrons. Parts that would be impossible to coat - like the inside of your exhaust pipe, the roof gutters, multi-folded panel seams - all come under the influence of this electronic field"
---
"The Rust Evader® module attaches to your regular car battery and draws about as much current as your cars clock. Over every 8 second cycle it emits a surge of "free" electrons throughout your vehicle to the very places your car has lost its protective paint and coatings (through stone chips, scratches, and abrasions) and "shields" these exposed areas from harm. The charge is too small to be noticed, however the free electrons interfere with the rusting process and retard rust and corrosion significantly."

Another one says they use a combination of cathodic and sacrificial anode process i.e they have a small aluminium strip that is sacrificial and needs to be replaced.

"An adapted version of CP has been developed enabling protection in atmospheric conditions without a constant electrolyte. This technology, Directed Cathodic Protection (DCP) makes use of a clever combination of both sacrificial anode and impressed current technologies. Instead of relying on the electrolyte (water) to provide a path for electrons to flow towards the anodes, a current is impressed onto the vehicle forcing the electrons to flow though the metal and towards positively charge anodes. The anodes corrode (sacrifice) and the corrosion process is interfered with."

From 4WD Monthly.
"Obviously, there's only one way to fully evaluate the CounterAct system, and that's to fit it to a vehicle and monitor any future corrosion. We're doing that right now but the fact is, that the longer you look at this technology, the deeper you dig both scientifically and from folks who are already using it, the better CounterAct looks. They don't promise to rid your life of rust forever, but if it can be retarded to the degree we believe is possible, then there isn't a four wheel drive in the country that wouldn't benefit from a CounterAct fitment."

CounterAct's electronic rustproofing systems have undergone extensive testing under rigorous conditions in both the lab and field. All Lab testing of CounterAct electronic rust prevention systems is done to recognized standards in prominent facilities that offer subjective conclusions that leave no room for doubt.

Independent Testing by: LACOR Corrosion Laboratory(UFRGS)
Porto Alegre, Brazil, 12-9-1987
Stds: ASTM D 1654
American Analytical Laboratories


Kent State University
Kent, OH 44242, 6-28-1990

Queensland University of Technology
Brisbane, QLD, Australia 4001
5-5-1995
Laboratory Report # HC1213

ETL Testing Laboratories
Div. of Inchcape Testing
Cortland, New York 13045,
4-9-1995
Certified Test Report No. 561472
Stds: ASTM D1654

New Zealand Standards:-
AS/NZS 4251.1
Electromagnetic Compatibility
Certified Test Report No. 91051
2nd November 1999
Tested at: EMC Services Pty Ltd

Quality Control : ISO 9002

---
"If the paint of a motor vehicle is damaged then the metal can become exposed to a number of elements that combine to damage or rust the metal.
The CAT rust prevention system protects your car by forming a "field" of electrons around your car as an invisible barrier.
Should the metal of your car become exposed to the elements (paint weakness or scratch.) the "field" provides the electrons sought by the water and salts that are "attacking" your vehicle, thereby leaving your car intact and rust free.

The CAT Rust Protection System has been thoroughly tested in laboratories internationally
Stringent tests were carried out between 1989 and February 1991 in England in all weather conditions.
These tests were undertaken by Mr Donald Harrison C.B.E., D.F.H., M.I.E.E., C.E. who is an eminent Physicist, a member of the Institution of Electrical Engineers and a Chartered Engineer.
He has carried out physics and nuclear research at the Atomic Energy Establishments at Harwell in England and Wintrith in England on behalf of the British Government
Mr Harrison was subsequently Deputy Chief Scientist at the Department of Industry concerned with scientific research programs in Industrial and Government Research Laboratories and is very highly regarded by his peers in his field of physics.
Successful tests were also carried out in Australia by nationwide E.T.R.S. Metallurgists in 1991 and Material Insights Pty Ltd, Metallurgists, in 1997. C.R.I.Q. Laboratories in Québec, Canada in conjunction with expert scientists in this field. These scientists also carried out significant successful testing in 2000.

I guess these experts mean nothing to you but unlike Fitch and Hiclones they are happy to publish their independent testing results..

And I guess their qualifications are better than ours!!

Anyway cheers --- no more!!! finished --- done alldone.
good verbal joust!

Have another soon
Ian

You're right about the peak to peak V, I got carried away and should have written just Peak, because I was only interested in the "good" half cycle anyway.

It's been fun. The folks out there can make up their own mind. But I will pose this question for the readers: If these things really work, why doesn't the auto industry universally adopt them? They have bugger all in them in the way of components and would cost nothing to make so to speak, so you would expect to see them popping up in cars everywhere as each manufacturer tries to outdo the rest, particularly the upmarket models.

G'day Robak,

I'm not the least bit worked up mate. I'm taking the opportunity to dispell each of the myths as they arise - although, that said, there isn't any more that I can say now so I won't be continuing after this.

I was actually hoping to not have to go too deeply into the theory, but some people obviously need to see the details before they cast off their beliefs.

I note with interest that the guy who questioned my quals, without disclosing his, has gone very quiet.

But as you say, it's time to let it go. The more sensible visitors to this site will hopefully save themselves some money.

Cheers,

Im.away

Wrong Im.away ,I just think it totaly laughable that someone who calls themselves a "rustoligist" continues on +on +on over a subject that has been proven to be of beifit ,that being electricaly charging metal can and does inhibit corrosion ,, rustoligist indeed,LOL . reminds me of a printed note found under the windscreen of my car from our garbo advising of a change in pickup routine ,signed "your local Garboligist"

Now I'm no chemist or electrician but I do know know that rust is simply a chemical reaction.

It would be easy to prove that EPRS works by simply stating the chemical formula of this reverse reaction.
(4Fe + 3O2 = 2Fe2O3)

Electrical protection works on boats, bridges and pipes because there is an electrical circuit. This does not happen on a car (unless its immersed in salt water).

Perhaps there is a chemist amongst us that can help.

R.

Sorry robak, I can't let this go...I'm having too much fun. This clown "Alloy c/t" has now proven on three occasions that he either can't read or only sees what he wants to.

So, Mr Alloy c/t I am going to type this really slowly because I know you can't read very fast....

WHAT ARE YOUR QUALIFICATIONS? You seem to desire being the sole arbiter of this argument so BACK YOUR POSITION UP WITH YOUR QUALIFICATIONS and some theory about how the ERPS's work.

Come on Mr smarty pants. It's a simple question...What are your qualifications?

Hey robak, what do you reckon the odds are that he STILL won't answer the question?

ImAway ,,The only clown I see is a "rustoligist" ,, you your simple minded self has stated that E.R.P.S does not work ,yet in the same sentence you state that electrical rust prevention systems Do work ,IE : pipelines / ships ect ect , as for qualifications ,any and all can and do make them up on the net , and it is my belief that yours are just that, RUSTOLIGIST roflmao!!

Alloy

I think your missing the main point (on purpose or otherwise) of his arguement.

Electric protection works when there is a circuit. (like pipes, boats)

ERPS does not have a complete circuit.

Just for anyone who is interested, you can see a couple of my quals at the links below. I've deleted my surname and address because frankly, I think Alloy c/t is unbalanced and would probably start some sort of hate mail thing if he could.





See robak, I told you he wouldn't answer the question. Wha?t's the bet the next thing he posts will accuse me of faking these items (above)

" dispel each myth as they arise " ,, as stated previously , any man and his dog can fake /produce so called qualifications on the net , you win the bet ..

Yeah, whatever, you twit.