Anderson Plugs - Soldering?

Submitted: Sunday, Mar 25, 2007 at 20:31
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I am wiring up 12V to my van and expect high current draw as I am using a Arid battery DC/DC converter.

I note the Anderson plug connectors have capacity for large diameter copper cable input. I was going to solder the copper cable into these, but I have heard crimpring any wire is better than soldering as fatigue can occur (if soldered) if the connection is subject to movement.

The Anderson connectors are fairly large. Has anyone successfully crimped of soldered these?
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Reply By: FZJ 80 - Sunday, Mar 25, 2007 at 20:38

Sunday, Mar 25, 2007 at 20:38
I crimped and soldered mine. Use a small blowtorch or similar to heat the connector and use plenty of solder, Can't go wrong.

Greg
AnswerID: 229680

Follow Up By: Go-N-Grey (WA) - Sunday, Mar 25, 2007 at 20:47

Sunday, Mar 25, 2007 at 20:47
Thanks, that's exactly the answer I didn't want to hear!

I a terrible at soldering, spent some time on the gas stove this afternoon filling up connectors with solder, and then plunging the copper into molten solder for other parts of the wiring and was roundly criticised by my BOL for not "tinning" the copper 1st! and I made a hell of a mess.

Much happier crimping, but get scared when I can pull the crimps apart when I try to tow the van :-) with the wires!
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Follow Up By: Member - Russell H (WA) - Sunday, Mar 25, 2007 at 21:07

Sunday, Mar 25, 2007 at 21:07
Believe it or not, a solder joint is more likely to fail than a crimped connector. Go to any electrical supplies shop and buy some Conductive Paste. The paste is an amalgum of conductive metals. Dip the copper into the pste and then place into your lug. Crimp with a suitable tool and it will never fail.
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Follow Up By: Member - Duncs - Monday, Mar 26, 2007 at 10:55

Monday, Mar 26, 2007 at 10:55
A quick tip on soldering

Bakers flux.

I could not solder to save my life until I started using this stuff. It is like super glue for copper and solder.

Duncs
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Reply By: Philip A - Sunday, Mar 25, 2007 at 20:39

Sunday, Mar 25, 2007 at 20:39
All Auto electricians have a Humungous crimper that will do this.
Regards Philip A
AnswerID: 229681

Follow Up By: Go-N-Grey (WA) - Sunday, Mar 25, 2007 at 20:59

Sunday, Mar 25, 2007 at 20:59
Thanks, need to follow that up to a lecy with the LC and cable.

Nothing like a good crimper, still fiddling with the useless connectors for my satelite TV setup (F!?) , that fall to pieces every time I use them.

Nothing like a good BNC connection and a near hydraulic crimper for a reliable commercial grade connection.
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Reply By: disco1942 - Sunday, Mar 25, 2007 at 20:43

Sunday, Mar 25, 2007 at 20:43
If you have an Arrid Twin Charge battery charger, then its maximum output is only 20 A maximum. At this output current they are probably 85-90% efficient. This means that the maximum input current will be in the range of 25-28 A. This makes an Anderson plug a complete overkill. You only need a flat 12 pin plug or a large round 7 pin connector. Both of these have pin ratings in excess of 30 A. By using one of these you will have a simpler trailer hook up. Why go for the extra complication of a two cable hook up?

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AnswerID: 229682

Follow Up By: Go-N-Grey (WA) - Sunday, Mar 25, 2007 at 20:54

Sunday, Mar 25, 2007 at 20:54
Thanks,

The wiring diagram I have for the Arid shows a separate connection for 12V fridge throuht the plug.

I expect as you say the Arid to draw less than 30 amps, but I am worried about the extra load of the caravan 12V fridge which draws 200w at 12V which is nearly another 18 amps on top of what the Arid will draw.

I put 100Amp cable from the battery to the plug, and it is fairly thick, and will just fit into the Anderson plug, but I suspect the Van wiring is fairly thin!
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Follow Up By: disco1942 - Sunday, Mar 25, 2007 at 21:02

Sunday, Mar 25, 2007 at 21:02
If you use the 12 pin plug then pin 8 is for the battery charger and pin 9 is for the fridge. See http://nz.msnusers.com/Caravanersforum/Documents/Documents%20folder%2FTrailer%20%26%20Van%20Plugs%20W95%20Rev%201.doc

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Follow Up By: Go-N-Grey (WA) - Sunday, Mar 25, 2007 at 21:47

Sunday, Mar 25, 2007 at 21:47
Van came with large 7 pin conector (which required an adapter to suit the small 7 pin fitted by Toyota) and a Anderson plug.

Have successfully towed a van with fridge for 20 years with the small 7 pin plug, but did note that plug became hot when using the 12 v fridge, and there was no battery in the van, but also did note the fridge didn't work to well when on the road, and the lights in the van certainly dimmed when fridge was switched on.
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Follow Up By: disco1942 - Sunday, Mar 25, 2007 at 22:09

Sunday, Mar 25, 2007 at 22:09
A few vans back the plug (small size) became more than hot - the fridge pin actually welded itself in the socket. It took two of us 15-20 minutes manipulating the plug to break the pin to get the plug and socket apart. These small pins are only rated for 5-7 A and I had rewired the van with 6 sqmm wire which gave me nearly full fridge current. Since then all my vans have had 12 pin plugs whether I have had a battery charger or not using pin 8 or not.

If you are using small plug pins and the plug is not getting hot then your wiring to the fridge is too light. The fridge will also not be running near its design capacity. I would suggest that anyone wishing to run their fridge on 12 V whilst travelling to use plugs with the larger size pins and rewire the tow vehicle and van with heavier wire if they are relying on 12 V to keep the fridge cold on long trips.

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Reply By: Go-N-Grey (WA) - Sunday, Mar 25, 2007 at 21:04

Sunday, Mar 25, 2007 at 21:04
I am impressed with the follow up here following my first post.

Within minutes of posting this topic, I had most of the answers I need, and although I have been touring exploring Oz for 25 years, I have learnt there is alway room for improvement and more knowlege if you ask.
AnswerID: 229691

Reply By: Gronk - Sunday, Mar 25, 2007 at 21:08

Sunday, Mar 25, 2007 at 21:08
I used anderson plugs for a batt charger connection in the CT and soldered them as the wires were "only " 6mm2....

If the wires are too small for the lug, then crimping is a no no, as there will be a void left after crimping, which means the full surface area of the wire is not being utilised and in worst case scenario, a hot joint can develop...

Used to do a fair bit of soldered lugs years ago and didn't tin the wires 1st, but tinned them as they were inserted ( slowly ) into the lug..
AnswerID: 229692

Reply By: Keith_A (Qld) - Sunday, Mar 25, 2007 at 21:11

Sunday, Mar 25, 2007 at 21:11
Hi GNG - the pros all say CRIMP only. ( I used vice grips then a nail punch.)
The main reason for using anderson plugs with heavy wiring is to minimize voltage loss. There is a simple formula - but here is the site. Site Link
Also read 'Electrics: wiring woes' article plus the items on fridge wiring.
...............................Keith
AnswerID: 229693

Follow Up By: Gerhardp1 - Sunday, Mar 25, 2007 at 22:56

Sunday, Mar 25, 2007 at 22:56
Sorry, Keith, all the pros do not say crimp.

Many Pros crimp because it's quicker than soldering, therefore it's a shortcut designed to save them time and money. They say it so often, in the end they believe it themselves.

My anderson plugs are soldered only, not crimped - on the advice of my autolec pro.

Have never had a breakage on a soldered anderson plug. When you crimp these things, dirt gets in and corrosion soon has the strands of copper breaking and the connection deteriorates.

I am not advocating soldering every electrical connection - in some situations where wires are thin, I don't solder.

But for Anderson plugs I don't crimp.
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Follow Up By: Member - Kiwi Kia - Monday, Mar 26, 2007 at 14:59

Monday, Mar 26, 2007 at 14:59
Gerhardp1, NEVER solder ! That is old technology and totally discredited. With electrical wiring that requires certification it is not legal to solder. Anyone who says solder is not a 'pro' in my opinion as they are lacking in general trade knowledge. If there is extra space in the terminal then use a crimp sleeve first and insert that into the screw terminal. Solder will not allow proper flexing and cracking will occur if subject to vibration. Also, as solder is soft it will slowly 'flow' under screw pressure and need retightening periodically. If you are lucky you will catch a loose terminal before it overheats but if you do not then the terminal may overheat and self destruct. As far as corosion is concerned you will get almost nil on a crimp join but soldering flux is corosive. If you are worried about corosion then coat the crimp sleeve area with pertroluem jelly or similar (just like battery terminals).
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Follow Up By: Gerhardp1 - Monday, Mar 26, 2007 at 15:55

Monday, Mar 26, 2007 at 15:55
I don't buy that either Kiwi Kia - If soldering is totally discredited, why is every electronic device on earth soldered - eg your motherboard on the PC you are using to write on here, the router , the switch if you have one, the circuit board on the hard drive, etc, etc

Methinks solder still makes the world go round. Never seen an electronic device with every connection crimped and never will.

You also state contradictory information - you say solder is brittle and will crack, but you also say solder is soft and will require re-tightening of contacts.
Copper has the very same characteristics - it is soft, and will crack when subjected to vibration. I have seen many crimp connections that have become loose and many that have been overcrimped to the extent that the copper wires have been fractured, causing the connection to fail.

I still say solder the anderson plugs. Corrosion won't happen from the flux as you heat it sufficiently to burn all the flux out of the join. You also have at least 8 B&S wire in the 50amp plug so there's a decent size of copper.

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Follow Up By: Member - Kiwi Kia - Monday, Mar 26, 2007 at 18:08

Monday, Mar 26, 2007 at 18:08
Hi Gerhardp1, Perhaps I was not quite clear, soldering on surface mount items on pc boards is totally different to something that is 'standing off' a pc board or something hanging free. The wires that pass between a stack of pc boards are always on plugs and crimped - never - soldered. Even the wires on a commutator are squeezed into slots and not soldered. All electrical cable connections that carry significant current are in lugs or sleeves that are crimped. Electricians did not change to crimp lugs because it was a handy thing to do, they did it because electrical regulations do not allow it any more as soldered joints fail, overheat and can cause fires. I pointed out that under pressure the solder will 'flow' over time and the resulting loose joint will overheat and could cause a fire. If you have seen a crimp connection fail then it was because of mechanical damage by someone who certainly was not a 'pro'. Unsuported copper cables if subject to vibration can and do work harden and break but this is easily fixed by suporting the cable. If you heat a join to the point where you burn out the flux then you have overcooked it and will leave an ash deposit which makes a high resistance join - which overheats etc..... etc etc. Sorry Gerhardp1 but solder is definitely not best practice for many good reasons.
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Follow Up By: drivesafe - Monday, Mar 26, 2007 at 20:53

Monday, Mar 26, 2007 at 20:53
Hi Kiwi Kia, I think you are comparing Low voltage regulations with Extra Low Voltage application.

Most vehicle manufactures use both crimping and soldering to secure wire in different applications, including for moderately high currents, so there is no reason for NEVER soldering.

Furthermore, if a circuit is designed correctly then there should be sufficient protection in place that will go open circuit before any section of the circuit could carry anywhere near enough current to cause enough heat to melt solder and the insulation around the wire will also be in trouble by that point.

Cheers.
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Follow Up By: Member - Kiwi Kia - Tuesday, Mar 27, 2007 at 07:08

Tuesday, Mar 27, 2007 at 07:08
Hi drivesafe, thanks for the comments but I do know all the regs (I do certification) I was only using that example to show that there are researched reasons why you should avoid soldering any electrical connection on cables. Flat components can be soldered ok. I have witnessed many low voltage and extra low voltage melt-downs and burn outs around soldered joints but fair to say that badly crimped joins or loose terminations also do the same thing. Over current circuit protection is usually rather crude and ineffectual unless you spend heaps of bucks on electronic monitoring devices. Fuses work fine on short circuits but will happily carry enough overload current to become so hot that they melt their surrounds before failing. I probably do go on a bit but I get annoyed when some one says that this is the way that 'pros' do it. In my book they are not 'pros' if they still solder plug terminations. As far as I am aware soldering cable terminations has not (or should not) been taught at any trade school for at least 30 years.
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Follow Up By: drivesafe - Tuesday, Mar 27, 2007 at 07:37

Tuesday, Mar 27, 2007 at 07:37
Hi Kiwi Kia, I’ve never heard of any reference to soldering not being safe to use in Extra Low Voltage applications for fixing cables to terminals and as the manufacturer of these terminals, Anderson Power Connectors, specifically states that they recommend soldering or crimping, I can’t see them leaving themselves open to any potential legal challenge by stating soldering was a recommended means of securing the cable to their terminals if there was a genuine problem with doing so.

As for “over current circuit protection is usually rather crude “, this would only be the case where the circuit was not designed properly in the first place.

Have said that, I will agree that the incorrect use of both fuses and circuit breakers is a problem where people set up their own wiring but this form of incorrect use will have effects on the whole circuit not just any solder joints.

Cheers
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Reply By: Member - Phil G (SA) - Sunday, Mar 25, 2007 at 22:43

Sunday, Mar 25, 2007 at 22:43
Yep, a good quality crimp is better than soldering. But an poor quality crimp falls apart. Because I don't have the flash crimp tools, I tend to crimp and reinforce it by soldering just the tip.

Main problem with soldering is if you overdo it, and the solder creeps up the wire, away from the connector. It then becomes susceptible to breaking from vibration.
AnswerID: 229707

Reply By: MEMBER - Darian (SA) - Monday, Mar 26, 2007 at 07:50

Monday, Mar 26, 2007 at 07:50
Solder only with mine and no issues to date, but can appreciate the flexing issue, if present. My cable is reinforced with outer shielding (poly irrigation pipe I think), so the ends don't bend much at all. When soldering, I just sit my terminals on the edge of a gas ring - when really hot, I pick them up with the pointy pliers and run the solder in - it pools at the bottom - I then poke the wire in and blow them cool.
Love the Andersons - great engineering - ultra simple but effective.
AnswerID: 229734

Reply By: Gronk - Monday, Mar 26, 2007 at 08:53

Monday, Mar 26, 2007 at 08:53
The anderson lug needs to be "full" of cable.....in other words the size of cable ( core size ) needs to be the same as the lug..

If it is, why not solve all discussion and crimp it 1st then solder it 2nd !! Just heat it as normal and fead the solder in ( small resin core solder is easiest )
AnswerID: 229751

Reply By: Sand Man (SA) - Monday, Mar 26, 2007 at 08:57

Monday, Mar 26, 2007 at 08:57
Folks,

IMO the cable entry size on a 50amp Anderson connector (grey) is way too big to just whack in a cable, then crimp, or solder.

What you should do first, is take a single strand of copper conductor wire from a piece of stranded 240 volt electrical cable and wrap the end that is going into the Anderson connector. The tin the end with solder by heating with a small blow torch and a good quality resin cored solder.

Place the connector in a vice between a couple of pieces of wood to limit conductivity and gently heat the connector end with the blow torch.
Half fill the cable entry port with solder, then plunge the tinned cable in, keeping still and allowing the assembly to cool.

Now you will have a good quality, low resistant joint that will stand up to anything you give it.

The "secret" is in wrapping the cable with another copper wire to increase the overall diameter of the cable end, before tinning. Just something I "picked up" at Trade School many many years ago.

Yes, it is possible to crimp the cable if you have the right crimping tool but a soldered joint, done properly, will be as good, if not better. If I was crimping, I would still pre-wrap the cable first, unless the cable diameter was close to that of the conductor's cable entry port.
Bill


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AnswerID: 229753

Reply By: Gronk - Monday, Mar 26, 2007 at 10:20

Monday, Mar 26, 2007 at 10:20
Or if the cable size is approx 1/2 the size of the anderson plug, double the cable over itself and feed it in to take up the slack and solder ( this method is still not recomended to crimp as all the void won't be filled )
AnswerID: 229769

Reply By: The Fox - Monday, Mar 26, 2007 at 11:33

Monday, Mar 26, 2007 at 11:33
Where's Derek on this one?

What does the manufacturer recommend?

I crimp only and some are around 10 years old with no problems. But i do take care to support the cable as near as possible to the plug and try to limit the flexing and weight supported by the crimp.

Trevor
AnswerID: 229789

Follow Up By: drivesafe - Monday, Mar 26, 2007 at 20:38

Monday, Mar 26, 2007 at 20:38
Hi Fox, check out my full post below but to your GOOD question, the manufacturer, Anderson Power Connectors, recommends both soldering and crimping.
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Reply By: 62woollybugger - Monday, Mar 26, 2007 at 12:05

Monday, Mar 26, 2007 at 12:05
The reason low voltage wiring should be crimped not soldered, is because of the heat produced due to the high currents under short circuits will melt the solder.
As a guide, the short circuit current of a battery is around 7 x the AH rating, ie. a 100AH battery can supply 700A. Any wiring after the protection device, fuse, circuit breaker etc could be soldered, but never solder any connections between the battery & fuse.
AnswerID: 229794

Follow Up By: Keith_A (Qld) - Monday, Mar 26, 2007 at 17:21

Monday, Mar 26, 2007 at 17:21
A second reason is uniformity. The electrical contact of solder joints can vary depending on the skill and equipment of the person. A crimp tool should produce a uniform electrical contact, for a given wire/plug combination. To avoid the variability inherent in soldering abilities, many agencies stipulate crimping to ensure uniformity...................................Keith
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FollowupID: 490600

Reply By: drivesafe - Monday, Mar 26, 2007 at 17:45

Monday, Mar 26, 2007 at 17:45
There is no advantage or disadvantage as to whether you solder or crimp Anderson Terminals as long as either form of fastening is done correctly.

If you by genuine Anderson plus, the data sheet that come with them describes the recommended procedure for both soldering and crimping and and if the manufacturer states both means are recommended then there is no reason to argue the pros and cons of either method.

I have been working with Anderson products for many years and I personally use both methods and have never had a problem either way.

Crimping is more convenient but must be done correctly so to both secure the wire tightly but at the same time not to split the terminal wire housing, which is very easy to do.

As for soldering, it’s nearly always an available way to connect the cable to these terminals while accessing the correct crimps may not be.

As for the size of wire, if you buy the standard 50 amp housing, the terminals supplied with them accept up to 16mm2 cable and as posted above, this size cable housing may be a bit large for the wire used in some application. If you are going to be using a few Anderson plugs with thinner wire, you can order the 50 amp Anderson plugs with smaller or larger cable housings in the terminals and they should to cost any more that the standard 50 amp plugs.

One additional point, Anderson recommend using resin core solder but as is posted above, the use of Baker’s flux will improve the solder join but if Baker’s flux, paste or liquid, is used, it MUST be cleaned off after the joint cools as it is corrosive at room temperature while while resin core flux is not and does not have to be cleaned off.

Cheers
AnswerID: 229854

Reply By: Ken - Monday, Mar 26, 2007 at 21:18

Monday, Mar 26, 2007 at 21:18
Like all processes the right tools and technique are critical. The use of other than than the correct crimping tool, with the correct jaws, will produce a poor joint, worse than soldering. Some of the tools mentioned earlier in this thread would not produce a satisfactory, low resistance, reliable joint !
I suggest more people have adequate soldering equipment than have crimping equipment.
There is absolutely nothing wrong with soldering although the use of Bakers fluid is entirely inappropriate for electrical work where copper wire and tinned connectors are used. Residue from this acid based fluid is nearly impossible to remove and in a short time will corrode the cable.
If, as one post warning against soldering claims, the cable is drawing enough current to melt the solder there has to be a problem, in which case if the solder melted and the circuit was opened it would surely be a good thing wouldn't it. In this imaginery and highly unlikely circumstance, the connector and or the cable becoming hot enough to melt solder could not be considered normal operation.
Ken
AnswerID: 229900

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