Pastoral land access - Lake Everard

Rang the new manager he seems obliging but being new on the property he is going to check with the owner.
I am now waiting to hear his reply.
I had all good intentions of dropping of a slab on the way through but dont intend to use that as a bribe.

Cheers
Paul.

Sorry me again.
Thinking about your comment of having it in writing I feel this is a very good point for anyone else arranging for such access.
I know I will next time.
On talking to the new manager on Lake Everard he did mention that generally there is a form that is used for granting access to this property.
I guess the old manager was not interested in the extra paperwork.

Paul.

Yeah Paul , paperworks an issue for them , we are afer all imposing on here time and in each case I have done what I can to minimze things , like give them toll free return phone number or being sure to supply stamped self addressed envelopes.

Robin Miller

I worked on Lake Everard Station in the late 80's. I called in a few years back to say g'day to the current tribe and found the place to be ob beer rations. ie 2 beers per person per day...................so not sure if the slab would go down well???

Anyway we always let people thru but to answer the question about doing it without permission...............bad form and trespassing imo.

I feel it should be the other way round if you are not a member of an afiliated club access should not be denied but maybe harder to get.
If a club does the wrong thing they then have a body to follow up on.

It has always been beyond me how those that pay a pittance for the rights to graze there animals only and are such a major cause of land degradation and breed more feral animals than domestic ones complain about others. Most of the stations around Kalgoorlie are either lightly stocked or destocked leaving it to the ravages of goats and roos. While they concentrate on extorting money out of Mining companys.
OK thats my daily complaint

Hoooo, Davoe, don't get me going about pastoralists and prospectors in WA,,,,,,,,,,,

Bilbo

Was working with a prospecter from MB and didnt he fire up about them.
damn Cocky was extorting favours out of us for parking a dozer close to a windmill. Thing was it was originally a mining bore and apparantly we had every right to tellhim to get his mill and trough out of there
- doesnt stop them to - more front than John Martins

I disagree with you Paul about clubs having concessions etc. Its got nothing to do with 4WDriving. To me its got everything to do with having a look around, and I can do that on foot, 4WD, Camel, Quad Bike or Horse.

I agree with you Davoe, Pastoralists seem to have to much power and control. I think I could meander around a lease without interfering with stock etc.

Here's the SA legislation:

Pastoral Land Management and Conservation
Act 1989

48—Right to travel across and camp on pastoral land

(3) Subject to this Act, a person may, with the consent of the lessee or the Minister, travel across pastoral land (otherwise than on a public access route) by means of a motor vehicle, a horse or a camel and, in the course of so travelling, camp temporarily on the land.
(4) This section does not give a person the right to camp—
(a) within a radius of one kilometre of any house, shed or other outbuilding on
the land; or
(b) within a radius of 500 metres of a dam or any other constructed stock
watering point on the land.
(5) A person who proposes to travel across or camp on pastoral land in the manner
referred to in subsection (3) must first seek the lessee's consent to the proposal and the lessee may refuse that consent if of the opinion that it is necessary to do so for the purposes of the safety of the public, the management of stock or the carrying out of rehabilitative work on the land or for any other good and sufficient reason.
(6) If the lessee refuses to consent to a proposal under subsection (5), the person may seek the Minister's consent to the proposal.

I can just imagine asking the Minister for his consent ... which Minister is that anyway?

That Andrew, is a very good question.

It's a she... Hon GAIL GAGO MLC

but is that hard info to find ...

" target="EOF" class="lbg">Site Link

Paul could always request her approval if approval is not forthcoming.

The land is leased.
Theres no reason why Lake Everard couldn't inpose a fee which most people would be happy to pay like the $10 fee to travel up the Borefield track near Camerons Corner.

You would have to do some homework and find out what sort of lease it is under but the way it used to work was someone could be granted a pastoral lease but that was all it entitled them to , they could not stop access to geologists for example.
Cheers

The Bore Track from near Cameron Corner was very nearly closed for good, because people wouldn't do as they were asked to do by the owners, & that was drive around the bog holes & not ruin their track.

Hi Andrew

As per pauls issue these are tricky , and answers don't come without time and committment and some cost.

I have tried to get people interested but so often its just talk, and have had to develop my own senarios.

For example I have been beach driving in victoria which is generally considered not legal, but as usual there is more to any situation than the obvious - I go prepared , and don't act in a confrontational way, and don't go anywhere without a defendable position in case it was to be tested.
Same applies to closed off road reserves of which there are many, many in Victoria.

There is a lot you can do under the common law , and some groups like upmart , which I have attended conduct common law courses and have some interesting angles although a lot of people dismiss them as B.L.Rs

While I have spent some time resolving these issues for my own needs I would not hesitate to support a serious push by any sensible group to get us all more up to speed on these issues

Robin Miller

Hi Robin,

Here is a page from the WA Government on the subject of roads:

www.dpi.wa.gov.au/crownland/1784.asp

It is a little relevant to Paul's question, in the sense of discussing Common Law situations.

Of course, they have not updated it with Native Title implications.

Also, I have never tried looking up DLI records in WA to find out what roads have been surveyed but it oculd be very revealing or quite disappointing.

Cheers,
Andrew.

Andrew

So basically most outback roads in WA fall under the Local Government Act.

Seeing as the Ngaanyatjarra Council now describes itself as a SHIRE and may be already Incorporated as one, I wonder how long before more restrictions are put in place to use roads or tracks throughout the desert regions of WA.

We had better make a move to do our travelling soon.

Too many laws and tiers of government in this country. It will all bog down in RED TAPE one day.

Cheers

Robin, other than at Portland, where can you beach drive in Victoria?

There are issues surrounding that that mean you can't discuss them openly Shaker.

I believe that you can't at Portland either, but you have access to many dunes off the beach.

There are places you can get just a little bit without any issues, as per picture in my pictures of Walkerville, Sandy point etc.

Robin Miller

We just received a very irrate note from a pastoralist who took great offence to your reply here Bilbo. I quote:

"This attitude is exactly why pastorlists are getting tougher and tougher about access. As this bloke thumbs his nose and drives off where he feels like in the process for all he knows interfering with station stock & activities, he has managed to piss the pastoral lease holder off so much no one genuine will ever get in again...Some seem to be trying to apply the same rules to all states , when in fact all states are different. The mining right thing is not quite as simple this Bilbo makes out."

The pastoralist also commented "This post simply puts a bad taste in my mouth about what can be encouraged on open forums to other normally nice sensible 4 wheel drivers."

As you can see this sort of action/comment is harmful to the reputation of travellers and decision makers who read such comments/hear these stories are likely to share this pastoralists concerns. If you want your comment deleted Bilbo I can do. Just let us know. Otherwise, we can leave it as is, with my comments and the feedback we've received included.

Michelle,

My comments are based on 20 years experience prospecting IN WESTERN AUSTRALIA. I've driven up to many pastoralists station houses and declared that I will be on thier leased area. My approach has been something like,"G'day mate, I just popped in to let you know we'll be on your ground at such and such a place doing a bit of prospecting. If there's any thing we can do whilst we're out that way, we'd be happy to help".

Following such an introduction on many occasions I've been abused with comments such as, "You F@##**$$ng prospectors are all the bl@##$*y same, you rock up here very winter, come on my land, wreck my fences, steal my sheep, let yer dog run amok, leave yer crap everywhere and than p**s off and leave us to clean up the mess" etc, etc.

I've even been shot at - but that was 18 years ago!

After 20 years of 50% of pastoralists with such attitudes I've given up being 'accomodating'. The law says that all I have to do is NOTIFY the pastoralist that I will be on his pastoral lease. That's all I have to do. I do not need his permission. After being subject to insults regarding my parentage, after being told I'm a disability pensioning, dole bludging Pom because I'm a relatively young, self funded retiree, is it any wonder that I too have an "attitude" - just like he does.

I've suffered all of this after repairing gates & fences for 'em and pulling thier utes out of bogs.

Consequently, I now do what the law says I have to do. No more, no less.

I'm fully aware of the hardships that pastoralists endure from idiots on pastoral land. My comments were meant to indicate the extent of the law. They were not meant to encourage people to run amok on pastoral lands. I assume that everyone is as cognisant as I am of the difficulties of running a station.

I'll be nice to them when they are nice to me. In the meantime I remain circumspect about the attitudes I see out there.

Michelle, it's your forum, not mine, you do what you have to do. But if it was me, I'd put the guys post up in this thread and also another thread solely devoted to the topic on pastoral land access. It will do only good for 4WDers to read and heed what pastoralists have to put up with.

However, I'm afraid that "the Miners Right in WA" is as simple as I've stated - with the obvious covenants about staying away from mills, dams and farm structures, collecting wood and use of tracks. These things should be readily apparent to any thinking person. So this comment,,,,,,,,,,,"so much no one genuine will ever get in again..." is an indication that if this particular pastoralist is in WA then we have a misunderstanding of Mining Law and Pastoral Lease Access.

You can even give him my email address. I'll give him my phone number. I don't beleive in "the anonimity of the internet".

Your call Michelle.

Bilbo

Bilbo, the point raised here is that you have suggested to all and sundry that it is reasonable to misuse the law to get around access issues by getting a mining permit - even if one has no intention of mining. I understand that you do have a genuine desire to access pastoral land leases for mining activity and the law allows you, but that's a different matter to what this Post is about. I just don't want to see this post misconstrued to indicate that for someone with no intention of mining, that loopholes exists to be flaunted, nor would we ever want ExplorOz to be linked to such suggestions. That's just misusing the law and is no good for the reputation of 4WDing. Ideas of this nature are definately not condoned by ExplorOz.

No such thing as a loop hole - just the law. Some people think they are aove the law but they aint.
I personally have seenPastorists leave there land to the ravages of goats, dogs, excess roos etc while having it totally de stocked and living off extortion from companys trying to find mineral wealth-------- Sympathy - I dont think so! thelease gives them grazing rights not god gven rights or above the law rights

Firstly, thanks to Davoe for his knowledge and his support. Like me, Davoe is involved in the mining industry in Western Australia.

I could expand on Davoe's comments but I won't, not here. That would lead to a flaming war between a so far, anonymous pastoralist, Michelle and myself.

Michelles, this is your forum. If you feel that my comments do your forum a disservice, then delete the comment. No hard feelings.

But when you do delete the comment, bear in mind that you will be perpetuating the myth that, in Western Australia, a pastoral lease holder has the power to deny access to thier leasehold land. This is what the Pastorlists and Graziers Association (PGA) have wanted since the leases were granted 90 years ago. No Western Australian government have ever given them that right and they never will. But some pastoralists behave as if they actually have that right. That creates conflict.

It will be interesting to see what happens when these pastoral leases expire in about 7 years (?). I would hazard a guess that 90% of them will not be renewed.

Bilbo

Also noteworthy, is that others on this forum have suggested that they would not pay for a permit to traverse Aboriginal Land. Indeed, some have admitted that they have traversed the same land without paying for a permit and done so intentionally. That action is actually breaking the law and not simply using it to advantage.

When those comments were made, I didn't see Exploroz coming down hard on them, pulling posts and censoring contributors.

But, as I say, it's your forum.

Bilbo

Now careful, I think you have misinterpreted my involvement with this post.
I have not come down hard on you, nor have I pulled this post nor any part of it, nor have I censored any contributor, yourself included.

Like anyone else I am simply getting invovled in this post and having a say. I wouldn't even have seen the post or made any comment had I not received a complaint and as part of my obligation as owner of this site, had to investigate and handle.

All I'm interested in is making sure that for future readers of this post that there is no misunderstanding of what is being said here. I am not disputing the facts you have stated, I am only making my opinion that if someone is refused entry to pastoral leased land that it is not sensible, or fair, or kosha, or even good for the 4WD industry or whatever you want to call it, to attempt to bend the rules by getting a mining permit to get around access issues on pastroal land leases.

I have no personal gripe with you Bilbo and I am not disputing the WA laws regarding land leases and mining. I know all about that. I also know all about the properties that are overrun with feral animals etc. Just let's not use the ExplorOz forum to perpetrate redneck attitudes to 4WDing, which is what in my opinion is what your post was suggesting since Paul was initially looking at ways to get around the fact his access had been denied. I have a busy day ahead and feel there is no more that needs to be said. It's not a drama please. Just opinions.

Michelle,

As you've suggested, just delete the whole thing. In fact, I'm formally asking you delete the whole thing, if not actually telling you - which I can't do.

Anything for a quiet life.

I have my own, legal methods of gaining access. Let others work out thier own. methods. It's thier problem, not mine.

Bilbo

Well just returned from my trip and the night before leaving the manager rang and granted our group permission to go through Lake Everard Station. The owner was overseas and he had to make a decision and said it would not be a fair thing to deny access since permission was given some 6 months ago.
As mentioned earlier I think the manager will have to deal with the owner who I believe is very difficult to get along with and that the managers are for ever changing on the station.
With your comments on forms this is something I talked about with our group as you are right not enough people are aware of these forms or use these forms.
Anyway if others wish to travel through Lake Everard use the forms and dont give up trying.
By the way we did leave a slab of Coopers with the manager.

Thanks
Paul.

Paul,
Glad it all worked out OK, and thanks for taking the time to provide feedback.
Coopers is great currency here in SA. Bit of red doesn't go astray either :-))

Cheers
Phil

Oh dear i sense a baning. Don't try and do your dad any damage by stuffing up his reputation. This is a very popular web site.