Which battery charger . . . smart charger / 3 stage

Submitted: Tuesday, May 01, 2007 at 12:17
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Upon advice we've decided to get a 3 stage charger / smart charger to use in charging up batteries via 240v power or a EU10i generator while camping if needed. It will be to charge the auxilliary 50ah Orbital in the car (which runs an engel 80L fridge) and another battery that we'll carry on the camper and probably use it for lights and stuff, connect to the car via an anderson plug when on the road.

I've read some conflicting information and am not sure what the big differences are in regards to different brands of chargers - well apart from the price. Someone on the forum said that ones such as Durst aren't really true 3 stage chargers.

I have currently narrowed it down to these.

Durst Brand 25 amp smart charger $325 (plus a whopping $25 postage!) from Sidewinder
www.sidewinder.com.au/product5.html

Ctek XS 1500, 25 amp charger $550 on specail or the 15amp for $399
www.fridge-and-solar.net/charge.htm

Arrid 20 Amp 3 stage Smart Charger $399 from The 12 Volt Shop
www.12voltshop.com.au/

Obviously the Durst being the cheapest is the most tempting. The Arrid has reverse polarity protection and the Ctek seems to have the best reputation or brand name - being waterproof compared to the others - so would I just be paying for the name & the weather proofness?

Is there much difference between the three?
Which would you recommend and why?
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Reply By: Outa Bounds - Tuesday, May 01, 2007 at 12:19

Tuesday, May 01, 2007 at 12:19
The Xantrex 20amp (which I've read is a reputable brand) for $450 could be added to the list.
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Reply By: Member - Effie C (ACT) - Tuesday, May 01, 2007 at 12:39

Tuesday, May 01, 2007 at 12:39
Hope you weren't in a hurry because this site (http://www.fridge-and-solar.net/charge.htm) has gone on holidays till June, but he seems to have good prices.
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Reply By: Outa Bounds - Tuesday, May 01, 2007 at 12:42

Tuesday, May 01, 2007 at 12:42
oh Bugger!
We'll it's either wait of pay more I guess. The camper won't be finished till the end of May anyway so not in a hurry just yet!
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Reply By: Glenn WA - Tuesday, May 01, 2007 at 12:47

Tuesday, May 01, 2007 at 12:47
Hi,
I have had the Arrid 5 stage 20 amp for about a year now, with no problems. It charges the deep cycle Trojan no probs by mains power and from my Honda EU 10i when camping.
The only thing I have done is put a 30amp in-line fuse to solve the reverse polarity issue and have added a 0 - 20amp ammeter from dick smiths, which I have attached to the top, I like to see whats happening.
Good bit of kit IMHO.
Cheers Glenn
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Reply By: Robin - Tuesday, May 01, 2007 at 12:53

Tuesday, May 01, 2007 at 12:53
Hi Outa

None of those is optimum for your or my 50AH Orbital , you'd be better of with a ->

Site Link

at $225 because 20-25 amps is to high a charge rate.

But what size is your second battery ?

Also , how technical are you ? - 3 stage chargers usually go on boost for some hours , then switch down - and may not be your best option when charger from a generator for a couple of hours.

3 stages are at their best , when running for long periods, are backed up with a temperature monitor and matched to the battery, your request implies 2 different setups, and you may be better off with an alternate arrangement particularly if you intend to stay around the generator whilst it is running.

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Follow Up By: Outa Bounds - Tuesday, May 01, 2007 at 13:03

Tuesday, May 01, 2007 at 13:03
All three batteries (dual battery set up in car & a spare we'll carry in the camper) are the Orbital blue tops (50Ah), all cranking batteries. I'm not really that electrically minded, my husband is a bit better than me - however research is my stronger point.

I'm not quite sure how we plan to use the spare yet so the main purpose of the charger will be to maintain charge in the auxiliary which is running the fridge, and potentially the spare one mounted in the camper as well. It will depend on where we are camping weather we can use the generator, run it for a couple of hours each day if needed. Otherwise we should be on the move regularly anyway going for drives during the day, but as I've recently learned the alternator doesn't do the best job of fully charging so either way having the gennie is a bit of insurance.
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Follow Up By: Glenn WA - Tuesday, May 01, 2007 at 13:12

Tuesday, May 01, 2007 at 13:12
Robin,
You mentioned that the boost stays on for some hours.
Looking at the ammeter on mine shows that it draws 20amps for 1- 4 minutes depending on the battery condition.
Glenn
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Follow Up By: Robin - Tuesday, May 01, 2007 at 13:18

Tuesday, May 01, 2007 at 13:18
Hi Outa

Yes , in normal camping use the car battery doesn't get fully charged unless on a long drive.

From your reply , the most important point is that your batteries are 50AH and this implies that you do not need a large current charger, which could overheat your batteries.

Up to 15 amps is ample , even if you one day you may charge two in parallel.

This will reduce your cost subsatanialy. (I'll leave some one to correct that spelling)

The unit I reffered to at $225 is fine as its a true 3 stage automatic device capable of being set for a range of different batteries.

There will be other suitable products from Arrid/Ctek etc that fit this bill in other replies.

If you were only to charge from a generator , and be with it then simpler types are suitable.

Robin MIller



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Follow Up By: disco1942 - Thursday, May 03, 2007 at 11:28

Thursday, May 03, 2007 at 11:28
The three stages of these chargers is Bulk, Absorption and Float. I don't know what this "Boost" you are talking of is.

For AGM batteries the bulk charge should not be much larger than C/4 (the bulk charge rate is the max current specification figure, in the other two stages the current is less.)

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Reply By: Gronk - Tuesday, May 01, 2007 at 13:05

Tuesday, May 01, 2007 at 13:05
AGM's Australia have an Absorbed Power batt charger ( 10A, which charges my 4 x 35ah batts ) for $159.

Found these people very good to deal with, and although they seem to specialize in marine, they certainly know their stuff, especially agm batts and charging !!
www.agmsaustralia.com
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Reply By: Outa Bounds - Tuesday, May 01, 2007 at 13:17

Tuesday, May 01, 2007 at 13:17
I've bookmarked that AGM page, they seem pretty similar to the Durst brand in the specs.

I did contact Durst directly as well and they have recommended the BCS 1225 model which is over $500. The efficiency and quality being the difference compared to the BC 012-25A.

Hmm choices choices always complicated when you like to research them properly!
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Follow Up By: Gronk - Tuesday, May 01, 2007 at 13:48

Tuesday, May 01, 2007 at 13:48
My batts are agm's, so you might want to contact them and see if their charger also suits cranking batts ??
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Reply By: Outa Bounds - Tuesday, May 01, 2007 at 13:50

Tuesday, May 01, 2007 at 13:50
Something else to confuse me - the speil on the website in regards to orbital batteries says something about Absorbed Glass Matt so I assumed they were considered AGM, but then I always thought they were the Gel type or a cross between. So I will have to find out for sure.
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Follow Up By: Robin - Tuesday, May 01, 2007 at 14:07

Tuesday, May 01, 2007 at 14:07
Its confusing isn't it - I won't tell you that they are also called Fleece batteries.

The Orbital is an AGM and GEL and it is also spiral wound - which is superior construction than than normal AGM's but can be considered as having same characteristics.

What this means is that they are more tolerant to bad charging and in fact you can get away with some very cheap chargers like Jaycars units quite well with them.

Just noted your reference to "real 3 stage chargers" . There are extra features in the more expensive and higher current units - and there is a little confusion over what constitutes 2, 3 or 4 stage chargers - but in your case almost any of the automatic chargers will do provided they are about 15amps or less.

Whats important is that they limit current up front - provide a boost charge and know when to reduce that charge to a float charge which allows them to be left permanently connected.

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Follow Up By: Outa Bounds - Tuesday, May 01, 2007 at 14:31

Tuesday, May 01, 2007 at 14:31
Fleece - put the wool over your eyes?

So you think that a 25amp charger would initially put too much current in during the boost/bulk phase?

And you're saying go for a 15 amp or less because it's cheaper and ample for up to 100amps.

It does make sense to me because essentially the reason we are getting a charger is:
a. To ensure the battery doesn't get overcharged and we don't need to constantly monitor it
b. To charge it faster and more effectively than we would be albe to do with the 12v 8 amp outlet from the Eu10i generator.

Originally I thought a 25 amp most suitable because the Orbitals were said to be able to take that amount of current and also in theory it would take a couple of hours or so to charge them up.

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Follow Up By: Robin - Tuesday, May 01, 2007 at 15:23

Tuesday, May 01, 2007 at 15:23
Hi Outa

Maximum current into it is a critical factor in battery life , it has to be kept under
control else battery will gas and overheat. AGMs gas very little unless abused.

The Orbital are top of the line product , and because of the construction of putting paste/gel into the matt and rolling it in spiral wound lead plates it can take a lot more abuse than normal batteries and normal AGM's.
It can take 25amps for a while but doing this throughtout the whole charge phase will damage it.

This is also why you can use a cheaper automatic quasi 3 stage charger, but never the honda 12v output except in emergency.

15 amps is maximum into that battery long term.
In fact optimum charge is slower at C5 or 20% of its capacity (10amps)

This is where temperature monitoring comes into play for top of line chargers - as you can pump in max current and know when to stop (temperature also changes optimum charge voltage if one wants to get serious)

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Follow Up By: Outa Bounds - Tuesday, May 01, 2007 at 15:34

Tuesday, May 01, 2007 at 15:34
Thanks you really seem to know your stuff!

I'll have a look at a few different 15 amp chargers.
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Reply By: LCRUZA (VIC) - Tuesday, May 01, 2007 at 15:12

Tuesday, May 01, 2007 at 15:12
Also check out the Jaycar 4 stage for around $180. I run one and it works well and has two setting for under 100Ahr and then over 100Ahr.

Ron
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Reply By: crusa - Tuesday, May 01, 2007 at 15:44

Tuesday, May 01, 2007 at 15:44
I also have the 4 stage Jaycar 16amp/8amp unit which I use on the farm vehicles, the 4wd and the caravan. Can also recommend it as good value.
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Reply By: Outa Bounds - Tuesday, May 01, 2007 at 16:15

Tuesday, May 01, 2007 at 16:15
These below seem to be worth considering then....

Jaycar 16A $169
Site Link

Ctek Multi XS 1500 (15 amp) electronic switch mode $399 or more.

EPS1214 14amp Switch Mode Charger $225
Site Link

So does anything in particular make it more worthwhile buying the more expensive Ctek?
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Follow Up By: Robin - Tuesday, May 01, 2007 at 19:21

Tuesday, May 01, 2007 at 19:21
The Ctek unit does have some extra features such as sensing when battery load drops - to make a cleaner charging mode switch and some others - but these are not of significant value in your or most situations.
You are essentially paying for things you do not need.

The Ctek is however a great unit and its quality is above that of jaycar and should serve you longer, it is also more water/dust resistant (but not waterproof) and will take more knocking around.

While I cannot reccomend Jaycar units in commercial installations that I might design I am happy to reccomend them to friends but only on a basis similar to many low cost imports.

That is that you are able to check them out after purchase , and return if not satisfied and do not expect the same life as products that cost twice as much.

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Reply By: Outa Bounds - Tuesday, May 01, 2007 at 16:16

Tuesday, May 01, 2007 at 16:16
Ctek link
www.fridge-and-solar.net/charge.htm
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Reply By: Derek from Affordable Batteries & Radiators - Tuesday, May 01, 2007 at 18:23

Tuesday, May 01, 2007 at 18:23
Hi Outa Bounds

ExplorOz members get better prices and the Durst unit can be done for $300.00 incl postage if you just ask.

There is a new charger that is available from the 20th of May and available in 2 sizes. The ic-1215 $195.00 and ic-1230 $275.00. The ic is for intelligent charger as they are auto voltage sensing for differing battery types and are a true 3 stage charger. They are compact and the output is 16 amps and 32 amps. Float charge is 13.78V and in full float mode they cycle down to 0.25 amps.

If you are in a hurry give me a ring and you can have my demo model.

Next time please ask about postage costs and what is included in the postage like insurance and where in Australia you may be.

Regards

Derek.

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Follow Up By: Member - Roachie (SA) - Tuesday, May 01, 2007 at 19:04

Tuesday, May 01, 2007 at 19:04
G'day Derek,
Maybe you can answer a slightly technical question for me please....?

I have 2 of the Durst-type chargers; both 15 amp models. One is mounted in the camper trailer, the other in the cargo box in the Patrol. The latter is connected to the 120a/h Fullriver AGM battery which lives right next to it. That battery can also be charged by an Arrid Twin Charge. As such, it is not (nor can it be) connected directly to the starter battery.

I am contemplating fitting a 3rd battery (also to be located in the box on the tray), which will be hard wired to the starter battery via the heaviest practical cables I can find, to assist stir the 6.5 Chevvy into action on cold mornings.

I would like to utilise the other output terminal on the base of the 3 stage charger, to run a charging wire over to the 3rd battery; which in turn will automatically charge the main starter under the bonnet as well.

The question is, with regard to the switch on the face of the charger, would it be best to have it set to "Flooded" or "Gel", given that one of the batteries is an AGM, whilst the other 2 will be standard wet cell-type batteries?

Sorry about the long-winded question.......

Thanks,

Roachie
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Follow Up By: Derek from Affordable Batteries & Radiators - Tuesday, May 01, 2007 at 19:40

Tuesday, May 01, 2007 at 19:40
Leave the charger on 'flooded' if charging mixed batteries. It will then bulk charge at 14.4 instead of 14.6

That is the main change.

Regards

Derek.

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Follow Up By: Member - Roachie (SA) - Tuesday, May 01, 2007 at 19:43

Tuesday, May 01, 2007 at 19:43
Thanks mate
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Follow Up By: Outa Bounds - Wednesday, May 02, 2007 at 07:38

Wednesday, May 02, 2007 at 07:38
Hi Derek,

As you can see I've decided to do a bit of product research before getting one. We are planning to run the fridge at the end of the week and test just how long we get out of the battery first to give us a better idea weather we'll be using a second one as well or not. We don't pick up the camper until the end of this moth so there is plenty of time before we'll be going away.

You're right about postage, I shouldn't have assumed that it was overboard as a lot of factors go into it including the dimensions of the item as packaged which may bring the cubic weight to above actual weight of the item. All this is hard to know without seeing it in person. Still something to be taken into account as far as overall cost.

The new IC-1215, is it a Durst brand or something else? Otherwise I think the Durst 15 amp would be worth considering along with the other three on my list.

www.sidewinder.com.au/page61.html
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Follow Up By: Outa Bounds - Wednesday, May 02, 2007 at 07:41

Wednesday, May 02, 2007 at 07:41
Aren't only paid explore oz members eligible for discounts from certain advertisers on this site? I'm not a paid member.
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Follow Up By: Derek from Affordable Batteries & Radiators - Wednesday, May 02, 2007 at 07:56

Wednesday, May 02, 2007 at 07:56
I register discounts against registered user names.

Users of ExplorOz are also valuable to the forum and site.

The ic-1215 is manufactured for me by a very large company that supply the European and USA markets.

I would not import them if I thought they were not better than most units on the market and have been testing them for quite some time.

Please email me to discuss further.

Regards

Derek.
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Reply By: Grungle - Tuesday, May 01, 2007 at 19:06

Tuesday, May 01, 2007 at 19:06
Hi Outa Bounds,

Have you checked the spec sheet for the batteries? What does the manufacturer recommend as the max charge rate - C/10 or C/20. This should be the first determining factor as this will determine the size of the charger.

C/10 is capacity divide by 10 and C/20 is capacity divide by 20 etc. If you have a 50AHr battery with a C/10 charge rate then you should only go for a 5 amp charger. If you have 3 x 50AHr batteries then you can go for a 15 amp charger. There are some batteries that can accept a C/5 charge rate but most are around C/10 or C/20.

A lot of people go for the biggest they can which could be detrimental to the life of the battery. That is why I always suggest getting a spec sheet to find out what voltages are recommended, charge rates, charge V's temp etc.

I am involved with building repeater trailers with solar panels and various types of batteries and loads for the mines etc. Everything is sized according to the loads and charged at the manufacturers recomendations. If we didn't and something fails or life is reduced because of miscalculations, we would constantly be replacing gear which becomes very costly.

Regards
David
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Follow Up By: Outa Bounds - Wednesday, May 02, 2007 at 07:25

Wednesday, May 02, 2007 at 07:25
The battery appears to be C20? from the specs below which is all the info I could find on it.

# CCA Amps = 750
# RC Min = 100
# AH C20hrs = 50
# Weight Kg = 18.6
#
# Length mm: 258
# Width mm: 170
# Height mm: 203
# Volts: 12
# Terminal type: SAE/Threaded stud

www.exide.com.au/products/orbital.php
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Follow Up By: Robin - Wednesday, May 02, 2007 at 07:55

Wednesday, May 02, 2007 at 07:55
Hi Outa

The C20 above does not refer to that, it means that when you discharge it at a rate of C20 (50/20=2.5amps) that it will deliver 50AH.

If you discharge a battery faster it delivers less - for example if you discharge this one at C10 it will deliver only about 45AH.

Davids advice is generic and correct - but the Orbital's construction allows it to be charged at a faster rate than normal batteries primarily because it has about twice the lead for its size.

Hence a charger of around 15amp is correctly sized.

You can of course charge it slower perfectly well.

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Follow Up By: Outa Bounds - Wednesday, May 02, 2007 at 08:08

Wednesday, May 02, 2007 at 08:08
Thanks Robin, I had a feeling it wasn't referring to that hence the question mark, after all I would be pretty surprised if it could best handle a 2.5 amp charge rate!

Thanks for all your valuable advice, I'll be contemplating the different 15ah chargers, print some detailed specs and nut out the differences.

I'm also now taking the Durst 15ah into consideration as well. In the end quality will probably win out over a cheap price as we would rather have something that will last compared to a real bargain.

The charger you recommended would you put it above the Jaycar one quality wise?

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Follow Up By: Robin - Wednesday, May 02, 2007 at 10:35

Wednesday, May 02, 2007 at 10:35
Hi Outa

The one I referred to is above jaycar in quality , but not in suitability.

Many have been happy with their Jaycar products - it just needs to be realized that they are budget based , probably wouldn't take as much abuse , and as before
I wouldn't buy any budget stuff unless you have an easy path to check and return if not Happy.

I am not anywhere of any detailed information on Durst product so cannot comment on its engineering.

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Follow Up By: Outa Bounds - Wednesday, May 02, 2007 at 10:48

Wednesday, May 02, 2007 at 10:48
Durst appears to be an Australian company. Here is the link for the benefit of anyone else who may be following this thread as well. They seem to have a wide range of products.

Their Switchmode chargers and Smart Chargers appear to be two seperate product lines, with the Switchmode potentially being higher quality and probably more built towards marine use. The BCS 1214 being another potential one to consider.
Although I'm don't yet understand the difference between Switchmode types and the Smartcharger type.

www.durst.com.au/
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Follow Up By: Robin - Wednesday, May 02, 2007 at 11:24

Wednesday, May 02, 2007 at 11:24
Just on the terms , that is a mix up of words and functions.

Switchmode is an electronic method of generating voltage thats is effecient and lightweight but complex. Its alternate is to use a transformer and simpler electroincs to generate the basic voltage.

Smartcharger is not related to either and a smartcharger can have either switchmode or transformer based input voltage.

The majority of charges are switchmode these days, this is becoming a cheaper manufacturing option, however it brings with it some not so apparent issues.

For example - almost all switchmode units generate radio interference which can be a pain to some people out bush trying to listen to weak radio signals.

Your (partial) protection against this is that the products carry an Australian approval which is called a C-Tick (tick symbol inside a circle has to be visible on product).
Many cheap imports are not approved to this standard - always ask the question!

The terms Smart charger applies to the sensing of various states of charge and taking autonomous actions based on these readings - e.g. A smart charger typically stops charging a battery every few seconds and measures the batteries voltage to see if it should continue to charge.

A really smart charger uses a clock to time each charge sequence and uses this additional information to make even better decisions.

Genius level uses battery temperature as well ........

A 3 stage charger is often called a smart charger - but doesn't necessarily do the above.

Time for a coffee.........

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Follow Up By: Outa Bounds - Wednesday, May 02, 2007 at 11:53

Wednesday, May 02, 2007 at 11:53
I've had my second coffee already! Spent most of the day yesterday on the computer too!

The Durst BCS 1214 (Automatic Switch Mode Charger) has international safety compliance including the tick in circle and CE symbol which may or may not be what you were talking about.

Some specs...
Max charge 14.4v
Final charge 13.8v
Min Charge Amps 14.0
Overload Protection
Reverse Polarity Protection
Lightweight, Compact, Soft Start & Finish, Short Circuit Protection
2 Stage Cycle (Boost-Float)
Fully Automatic Operation
Suits any lead acid battery
Led indicator

I think that when buying something I don't know much about I tend to get too bogged down in all the little details. Although I guess in the end I generally always end up satisfied with my choice.

The Ctek 1500 seems to be hard to come by as well, the 15amp model can't be found anywhere apart from Fridge and Solar. And haven't found too many specs on the Jaycar model as yet.

So at the moment battling it out between the two Durst ones to find out the differences.
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Follow Up By: Robin - Wednesday, May 02, 2007 at 13:22

Wednesday, May 02, 2007 at 13:22
Hi Outa

The C-tick is the Australian ok and CE is more european - but in the case of this product they are the same standard anyway.

No issues with Durst - those paper specs are much same as Jaycars and others,
including the low cost ($99) Jaycar MB 36-12.

Most charge at 14.4 volts - although the EPS one I referred to uses 14.7 which is closer to ideal for Orbital.
Most smart chargers can be set over the two voltages , however these are secondary points, and probably only worth 15 minutes in the typical 2hr charge cycle for that battery.

Other considerations for you are simply ease and type of use.
E.G. You may have noted that some are styled for permanent fixture whilst others are more compact and suitable for packing in the car and being pulled out for occasional use.

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Follow Up By: Outa Bounds - Wednesday, May 02, 2007 at 13:48

Wednesday, May 02, 2007 at 13:48
Yes the thought did cross my mind that t he two styles were possibly just to target two different markets.

My husband may want to mount it permanently in the camper toolbox (which is on the drawbar) so something to take into consideration.

The Durst Switchmode model seems to be double the price of any others which are similar, so I'm guessing perhaps it's more robust quality wise. With all those fins it looks like it may dissipate heat more easily as well.

I've almost decided to go for it, now only have to make sure it's really worth paying an extra $200 for a machine that will do the same job as others nearly half the price. Your comment in the Jaycar model (which is a quarter of the price) having pretty similar specs has made me think about it again.
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Follow Up By: Outa Bounds - Wednesday, May 02, 2007 at 14:33

Wednesday, May 02, 2007 at 14:33
I'll will have to have a good think about it, I think just about any charger will do the job adequately providing I get the correct type (ie 15amp).

So the question comes down to price really and does paying more get better quality. I know chinese stuff isn't really renowned for it's quality but it wouldn't surprise me if even Aussie made (or insert any other country here) was using the same Chinese power modules anyway.

Site Link

I don't mind paying more if it's for quality rather than country of origin.

I guess like you say buying cheaper means willing to accept that it may not last as long, but then again when you pay half the price, if it last half as long compared to a product that costs at least twice as much then you really have something to consider.

Here's some pics





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Follow Up By: Robin - Wednesday, May 02, 2007 at 15:44

Wednesday, May 02, 2007 at 15:44
Hi Outa

Looks no one seems to have come up with a valid reason to move out of the
range of from $99 Jaycar up to my original reference for your setup yet.

Robin Miller

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Follow Up By: Outa Bounds - Wednesday, May 02, 2007 at 16:05

Wednesday, May 02, 2007 at 16:05
Doesn't look like it - maybe all this carry on has scared everyone away though!

The max current stated on the Jaycar $99 is 12A/6A - I guess this is selectable rather than only getting 6A output under load?

Site Link

I would have thought that the $169 one would be better suited?
Site Link
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Follow Up By: Robin - Wednesday, May 02, 2007 at 19:04

Wednesday, May 02, 2007 at 19:04
No , their are still some posts coming ! after a while it becomes hard to find where to reply.

The $99 Jaycar unit switch 6/12 is just so that it can also be used or some quite small batteries.

I still rate them with increasing suitability for your task as.

$99 Jaycar - basic does the job

$169 Jaycar - better again and looks cute

$225 + post Ep 1214 - basic more industrial with higher boost volts

CTek Arrid Durst etc near $400 units

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Follow Up By: Outa Bounds - Wednesday, May 02, 2007 at 20:11

Wednesday, May 02, 2007 at 20:11
I've just got my tape measure and gone through the dimensions. Seems the durst switchmode unit is one of the most compact, but also looks rather similar to the Ep1214.

Durst


EP


Would it make a difference to my choice if the battery is regularly drained pretty low before being charged (ie getting to the stage where it won't power the fridge any longer) in comparison to using the charger to top it up regularly.
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Follow Up By: Robin - Wednesday, May 02, 2007 at 20:37

Wednesday, May 02, 2007 at 20:37
There pretty much the same I guess Outa , just solid un-glamourus units both seem to be wall mountable.

In regard to your depth of discharge question - I haven't followed your use to carefully but if its the large engel fridge then it will not last much longer than 1 day off 1 of those batteries before needing recharge.

It will not make much difference which of the units we are talking about as you will need around 2hrs / day to recharge , and they are all 12-16 amps and as we have discussed its unsafe to charge much faster anyway.

Again , the type of battery you have is well suited to heavy discharge , however while it will stand up to it better than others its good to avoid repeated heavy discharges which shorten battery life.

I would certainly have a low voltage disconnect switch in your system either way.

Robin Miller

Robin Miller

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FollowupID: 498539

Reply By: Granpa Joe - Tuesday, May 01, 2007 at 19:20

Tuesday, May 01, 2007 at 19:20
Have to vouch for the 16A Jaycar unit as I have been testing it for some time now and am very happy with the way it operates. Has full protection reverse polarity,auto maintenance mode and all the other things I can think of.

Site Link

I think you can still purchase this with a 10% discount storewide combined with a 10% trade card discount (which anyone can get) to get a 20% discount as I did.

Not bad for $149.00
AnswerID: 237213

Reply By: Redback - Wednesday, May 02, 2007 at 08:04

Wednesday, May 02, 2007 at 08:04
Try this mob too

Traxide Tronics Made in Australia, only $125.



Baz.
AnswerID: 237341

Follow Up By: Redback - Wednesday, May 02, 2007 at 08:08

Wednesday, May 02, 2007 at 08:08
You can also do this




Baz.
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Follow Up By: Redback - Wednesday, May 02, 2007 at 08:09

Wednesday, May 02, 2007 at 08:09
Click on the images to make them larger.

Baz.
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FollowupID: 498352

Follow Up By: Outa Bounds - Wednesday, May 02, 2007 at 14:24

Wednesday, May 02, 2007 at 14:24
It looks more like a battery management system charging from the Alternator and not a 240v power source?
We do have a Rotronics system to isolate the main battery from the Auxilliary.
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FollowupID: 498437

Follow Up By: Mainey (WA) - Wednesday, May 02, 2007 at 17:46

Wednesday, May 02, 2007 at 17:46
Outa Bounds, yes go to the top of the class, you really have done your home work.
Pretty hard to go past a Rotronics battery isolator :-)))

Now a new thought, look for a battery charger that will give a higher BOOST rate, closer to 15v, about 10 Amp, for all the reasons stated above.
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FollowupID: 498460

Follow Up By: george1 - Wednesday, May 02, 2007 at 18:45

Wednesday, May 02, 2007 at 18:45
Hi Outa,
I have found the Ctek 15000 on many sites
www.dynamicsolarsolutions.com.au
www.solarpanelxpress.com.au
www.springers.com.au
i spoke to Battery World Morayfield who also said the Ctek is available at all their stores.
The best idea is to find out what th "bulk" and "float" charge voltages, and maximum charge current for your batteries are, consult you battery manufacturer for the this info (not "net experts")
Take this info to where you decide to get the charger from.
If the battery supplier, or charger salesman cant tell you this info, then go to another one!!
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FollowupID: 498478

Follow Up By: Derek from Affordable Batteries & Radiators - Wednesday, May 02, 2007 at 21:19

Wednesday, May 02, 2007 at 21:19
I agree with george.

Ask someone who knows and with the info you have you can make a decision.

I stock Ctek but only sell them to people who have money to burn. They are made in China and sold at Swiss prices.

Regards

Derek.
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FollowupID: 498570

Reply By: Outa Bounds - Thursday, May 03, 2007 at 06:19

Thursday, May 03, 2007 at 06:19
Thanks for all the advice everyone!
I will contact exide and find out the preferred charge figures I think it's 14.6 volts which I read on the forum last night. I will confirm and then look for a charger that closest matches those needs. At least I'm pointed well and truly in the right direction now - compared to looking for a 25amp previously.

Robin I realized after posting last night that however much I discharge before charging up doesn't make any difference to the type of charger. You must have a lot of patience for answering numerous questions from someone who doesn't know a great deal on the topic! Thanks.

I will need to convince the Master on the low voltage switch, I think it's a good idea and I am SWMBO after all!

Derek I saw that you sell Ctek as well. I'll be in touch particularly if I want some more specs on your up and coming models. I agree it would be surprising if there isn't much that doesn't come out of china these days, it can be made wherever but the componentry is very much guaranteed to come from elsewhere. But then again alot of people do have a notion that you have to pay more to get something good, I suppose it's true to some extent you do get what you pay for.

The Master says he doesn't mind paying a bit more to get a better quality product, he wants something that will last and comes with a warranty (which most things these days do). So I guess we'll probably end up with something in the middle of the price range to keep him happy.

If I had a store here locally, that probably would have been the first point of advice, even still I don't like to walk in somewhere and buy the first thing that is recommended unless I have done a bit of research before hand and know something about what I'm after. This is where a forum can be very handy but of course there can be conflicting advice as well. As an example we decided to buy a generator without doing a great deal of research, we knew why we wanted it though and had a good idea about the size that would be suitable, and as a result we believed the salesman when he said that we can charge the battery straight off it. Well I suppose you technically can so he didn't mislead us but of course it's not ideal.

Anyway I'll be getting a 15amp charger to suit the battery requirements. The Master is probably most likely going to mount it in a box (which used to house an air compressor).

And I guess some finer details will determine which one we end up with.

AnswerID: 237587

Follow Up By: Mainey (WA) - Thursday, May 03, 2007 at 07:43

Thursday, May 03, 2007 at 07:43
This is relevant information from the Exide Orbital website ->
Site Link

Please DON'T mount it in a box, the charger must have a circulation of fan forced air to remain cool, yes get a charger with a fan.
Carefully read the section on NOT "overcharging" the Orbital battery.

At only 50ah why not consider getting another Orbital battery to wire in parallel to give you 100ah and much better battery performance overall, or sell them and get 2 x 100ah DC AGM's.

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FollowupID: 498634

Follow Up By: Outa Bounds - Thursday, May 03, 2007 at 08:03

Thursday, May 03, 2007 at 08:03
He has a spare Orbital 50Ah in the shed and was probably going to mount it in the camper tool box. We did think about putting it under the bonnet, I didn't think there would be enough space and he wasn't quite sure how to best hook it up and weather it would interfere with the dual battery system in any way. It was something to consider. I guess like you say in parallel it's just like having one 100ah there.

Seems like it may be a good idea, we'll be testing out how long the 50ah lasts running the fridge this weekend (car staying in one spot). I reckon it will be about a day so I guess that means we would more than likely want to put the other orbital under the bonnet so that we have 2 x auxiliaries particularly for the longer stays.

The box he was planning on mounting it into is one of those tool boxes that house an ARB compressor, it opens up pretty well (the top half is taller than the bottom half), and the main idea of mounting it in there would be just for protection whilst not in use (not bouncing around inside the camper or car getting whacked by anything next to it, less risk of getting wet during water crossings etc). And some of the units seem pretty small so ventilation should not be an issue. I will take your advice on board and really weather it's mounted in a box or not depends on what we end up getting too, design, size etc.

Thanks for the Orbital link, I did have a read through all that before, was more after some detailed info that doesn't seem as readily available like the charging voltage they recommend. And I also thought that the batteries were sealed units thus can't be checked for fluid levels etc.

I have noticed that some charger specs say operating temp 0 to 50, others say -10 to 65 etc.

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FollowupID: 498641

Follow Up By: Robin - Thursday, May 03, 2007 at 09:07

Thursday, May 03, 2007 at 09:07
Hi Outa

I cannot agree with some of comments in the replies above your post , in that many people who sell things are not professionals in their field and may tell you some surface knowledge they have or have gleaned from the web.

This includes the Exide Australia link provided.

Unfortunately much information is also from overseas sources and not corrected for
Australian conditions as many even large corparations have limited and essentially just sales offices only locally.

The correct charging voltage is also dependent on the type of charging. for this battery it ranges 14.4 to 14.8 regime dependant.

Now that we agree on about 15 amps the reality is that the biggest factor in getting it perfect is temperature control which very few here do and none of the products under discussion do either.

If you wish a detailed charging note on this battery send email to robinannemiller @ hotmail dot com and I will forward you the appropriate document.

Robin Miller
Robin Miller

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FollowupID: 498657

Reply By: Outa Bounds - Thursday, May 03, 2007 at 10:40

Thursday, May 03, 2007 at 10:40
Finally some info - of course the best place to find the info is on the battery itself, which wasn't easy with the ones in the car until I remembered we had one in the shed. So hare we go, charging for the Orbital.

Charge when at 12.3V

C1 Exide Select Orbital (except deep cycle)
Max 14.6V @ 20% reserve capacity until charged or for a maximum of 18hrs

C2 Exide Select Orbital Deep Cycle Only
14.4v max at 20% reserve capacity
final charge at 2% for 2 hours

C2 Exide Select Orbital Float Charging for Stationary / Back up applications
Floating voltage of 13.8v recommended

Charging when below 12.1v is as above but extend for up to 48hrs instead of 18hrs.

Battery temp not to exceed 50 degrees.

Ours are Deep Cycle starting batteries so the first C2 would apply and using the Float function of the charger as well I guess.

So I should get a 10amp 3 stage charger that applies 14.4v max and a 1 amp final charge, floating it at 13.8v whilst at the same time ensuring it never reaches above 50deg C.
AnswerID: 237625

Follow Up By: george1 - Thursday, May 03, 2007 at 18:44

Thursday, May 03, 2007 at 18:44
hi there Outa
I have spoken to another person who seems to know a lot about charging,
They are Federal Batteries in Sydney, they are the distributors and importers of a wide variety of batteries and chargers.
Speak to Phill on 02 9807 3933
They really seem to know what they are talking about.
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