Clarification of CSR Permit System for 2007

Submitted: Tuesday, May 08, 2007 at 16:50
ThreadID: 45224 Views:4001 Replies:8 FollowUps:20
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The much talked about permit system for areas on/near the Canning Stock Route (CSR) is not yet in place - so what does this mean?

Since Native Title ownserhip has been granted to the Martu people and they have identified and published which sites they wish to restrict access to, travellers for the 2007 seasons must adhere to the regulations as follows:

NO ACCESS to the following areas (NO PERMIT is available): Mt Shoesmith, Wandurba Rockhole, Biligilli Well, Jenkins Track, Percival Lakes, Callowa Track, Savoury Creek Track, Killagurra Spring, Biella Spring, Calvert Ranges, and the track to the Calvert Ranges and beyond.

The following areas are accessible but ONLY WITH A PERMIT: Sunday Well, Durba Springs, Diebel Springs, Onegunyah Rockhole, Western section of Lake Disappointment, the Track to McFadden Ranges, Helen Hill, Turtle Hill, Slate Range, Ural Native Well, Libral, Lake George, Lake Winifred. Currently, there is no permit system in place, so none of the above areas are accessible yet. This means none of the above listed sites can be visited by tourists planning trips this season.
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Reply By: Member - Willie , Epping .Syd. - Tuesday, May 08, 2007 at 17:00

Tuesday, May 08, 2007 at 17:00
WHAT A JOKE .
AnswerID: 238601

Follow Up By: mike w (WA) - Tuesday, May 08, 2007 at 22:39

Tuesday, May 08, 2007 at 22:39
CD's posted today

Mike
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Reply By: Alan W - Tuesday, May 08, 2007 at 17:12

Tuesday, May 08, 2007 at 17:12
Thanks Michelle for that information, plus what you posted at 45167, in response to wayne.

Please find below copy of e-mail sent to us today from Rob Kelly from anfwdc in regards to developments to the CSR permit system.

Quote.
The permit scheme is being test run and will be operational as soon as our website host makes a few editing changes. Our online purchasing facility has been established and test run, so we are very close to operating - a day or two to get it right should be about it. You can visit our website at www.anfwdc.asn.au and click on the access update in the right hand margin for some recently updated information.

In answer to you specific question regaarding how to apply and cost, there will be information about the permit and a large red button on the website to start the process.

Every driver must carry the permit package in their vevhicle. There are two classes of permit covering individuals & commercial tour operators. The permits are for tourism purposes only. Any other access, e.g for volunteer work on the wells must be arranged by specific arrangement.

An individual permit covers driver, co driver/passenger(s) and your vehicle. The cost is to be $50, and will be issued for one month from the date you nominate on the form. You can apply and purchase online through our Westpac Web Advantage system, and once the transaction is approved, the package can be downloaded by you. The file is large, consisting of the permit, conditions and an information package. It is around 40 A4 pages and is being checked as a final edit at the moment. If you wish you can elect to have your package printed by us and mailed to your nominated home address for an additional $15 anywhere in Australia. Permit holders will be very welcome to call in for fuel and other purchases at the commuinities along the route, as advised in the information package. I hope this helps and have a great trip. One final reminder - visit our website for the update.
Regards
Rob Kelly
Unquote.

Hope this helps
Cheers
Alan
AnswerID: 238604

Follow Up By: Wayne (NSW) - Tuesday, May 08, 2007 at 17:27

Tuesday, May 08, 2007 at 17:27
Alan,

I have tried the link and there is nothing new or anything about applying for a permit.

Wayne
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FollowupID: 499676

Reply By: Alan W - Tuesday, May 08, 2007 at 17:36

Tuesday, May 08, 2007 at 17:36
Hi Wayne,
In the 2nd line of the anfwdc e-mail, Rob states 1 or 2 days.

So hopefully by Monday next week ( Year :) ) It should be up and running.

Fingers crossed
Alan
AnswerID: 238607

Follow Up By: Wayne (NSW) - Tuesday, May 08, 2007 at 18:21

Tuesday, May 08, 2007 at 18:21
Alan,

I know you are only the messenger but,

We were told 1st May and the permit system would be up and running. The AN4WDC have known about this permit system for a long time and now you are telling me another week.

40 pages for a permit and every vehicle has to have a 40 page permit. The AN4WDC have not thought this through very well at all. I my case I will have to down load 360 pages or pay another $135 to have the copies sent out.

Would it be possible to have Rob place a post on this site stating why it has taken so long, why every vehicle in a convey has to have a permit, where the money is going to, what happens if you leave home before this permit system gets up and running, when and how is the AN4WDC going to notify the general public, 4wd clubs and tour operators of the changes to travelling the CSR and why the AN4WDC is tyring very hard to stop people travelling the Canning Stock Route.

At $50 per vehicle I don't think this is too much to ask.

BTW, I hope they are use a bit more technology than just crossing fingers to get this permit system up and running

Wayne
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FollowupID: 499683

Follow Up By: Willem - Tuesday, May 08, 2007 at 19:08

Tuesday, May 08, 2007 at 19:08
Wayne

When this permit system was first raised a few months ago, I mentioned in passing about the stuff ups about to occur and your present comments reiterate just that. The AN4WDC has become a bureaucracy in its own right. The Ngaanyatjarra Council is a Bureaucracy in its own right. Two minusses are not going to make a plus.

We shall see.....................LOL

Cheers
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FollowupID: 499692

Follow Up By: Alan W - Wednesday, May 09, 2007 at 00:52

Wednesday, May 09, 2007 at 00:52
G'day Wayne,
Just like to put the record straight that Iam not affiliated with anfwdc in any way whatsoever.
Like you, we are organizing a trip to the CSR, ours is in August 07. For the last month or so we been planning menus, itinerary, equipment lists and lastly permits.

When you asked about csr permits I thought I share our experience to date, then a reply came from Rob Kelly anfwdc which I copied and posted above for your, and others, information.
If you have any questions or concerns, you will find Rob kelly's contact information on www.anfwdc.asn.au also you will discover Rob Kelly is the President.

In regards to downloading the permit, i'm going to download it once and then photocopy it 7 times - one copy for each of our tour party.

And lastly, it was me who had his fingers crossed that the permit system is up and running for you, but more importantly for us in Aug.

Regards
Alan

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Follow Up By: Wayne (NSW) - Wednesday, May 09, 2007 at 18:12

Wednesday, May 09, 2007 at 18:12
Alan,

I know you are the messenger, and would like to thank you for passing on information, but at the moment you are the only contact to the AN4WDC.
Rob has sent information out but it seems that only a select few are getting it. He would do better to send out the information to sites like this.

I hope for the sake of all of us that want to do the CSR, that the AN4WDC gets this permit mess up and running soon.

Wayne

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FollowupID: 499892

Reply By: Member - lyndon K (SA) - Tuesday, May 08, 2007 at 21:45

Tuesday, May 08, 2007 at 21:45
My partner wants to know, if we have to have a permit to visit, do they have to have a permit to visit our cities? Silly point i know, but we just think it is a bit of a joke and people have had a gut full of it.
Now is the only time you own
Decide now what you will,
Place faith not in tomorrow
For the clock may then be still

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AnswerID: 238700

Reply By: Billowaggi - Tuesday, May 08, 2007 at 22:28

Tuesday, May 08, 2007 at 22:28
What an absolute joke1. We have had a trip to the Calverts and on to Warri site planned for over a year [LARGE FEATURE IN 4WD MONTHLY LAST YEAR SPREAD OVER 2 ISSUES] Can you also please inform me of the communities along the Canning that sell fuel apart from Kunawarajji? I have travelled the Canning five times over a span of 10 years and have never seen an indiginous person on the track or any sign of their activity, what I have seen however is hundreds of Ausralians discovering their country and early heritage. Very tempted to travel our trip this year and just see who is there to stop us, I bet you no one!

Very angry Ken
AnswerID: 238711

Follow Up By: Alan W - Wednesday, May 09, 2007 at 01:19

Wednesday, May 09, 2007 at 01:19
To very angry Ken,
Billiluna community also sell fuel on the Canning. They are located near the intersection of the Tanami Road and the Canning. Approx 175km from Halls Creek.

I subscribe to 4wd Monthly and found the article on the Canning very informative. Also within that article there's a photo of Ron Moon, possibly, desecrating a Aboriginal engraving. I say possibly as I do not know the aboriginals culture on such engravings.

But regardless, actions such as this probably have caused the permit system to be put into place, to try and protect the aboriginals sacred sites or their history. It's always the foolish actions of a few that wrecks it for the majority.

Cheers
Alan

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FollowupID: 499781

Follow Up By: Billowaggi - Wednesday, May 09, 2007 at 14:35

Wednesday, May 09, 2007 at 14:35
Hi Alan, I am aware where Bililuna is ,we have twice tried to buy fuel there, After driving through the neglected, burnt out and de-stocked station you drive in through rows of abandoned car bodies and strewn rubbish to find a run down store plastered with grafiti, we have never actually bought fuel there as they were closed both times [weekdays business hours] we were there.

still angry Ken.
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FollowupID: 499847

Follow Up By: Willem - Wednesday, May 09, 2007 at 18:20

Wednesday, May 09, 2007 at 18:20
Andrew W

Ron Moon does not write for 4WD Monthly. He writes for 4x4 Australia Mag. I do not think that Ron would do anything stupid such as desecrating an aboriginal site.

Methinks you have your wires crossed somewhere.
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FollowupID: 499895

Follow Up By: Willem - Wednesday, May 09, 2007 at 18:22

Wednesday, May 09, 2007 at 18:22
PS I meant Alan W.........fat fingers again!
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FollowupID: 499897

Follow Up By: Alan W - Wednesday, May 09, 2007 at 21:24

Wednesday, May 09, 2007 at 21:24
To Still angry ken,
I thought it was strange that you would not be aware of Billiluna, as you been in the area many times.
As it will be my first time in Aug you have me a bit concerned about obtaining fuel at this community, I was planning to top up there. Will need to do more research.

To Willem.

I would like to apologize to 4wd Monthly for using their good name in my previous reply to Billowaggi.

In my defence, I assumed I also subscribed to 4wd Monthly as I just read a article on the Canning which also went over 2 issues.

After rereading Billowaggi's post, I now realize Still angry Ken mentions that the 4wd monthly large feature was last year.
So, I located my Magazines and lo and behold they are 4X4 Australia. The Canning feature in this magazine is in May and June 2007.

In the June 2007 issue No 281 page 83. A photo's caption states ,Quote, Ron checks out some Aboriginal engravings (below) ,Unquote. The photo shows Ron squatting with his left hand outstretched touching the engraving.

Somebody has gone to a lot of trouble of engraving something in rock, you could possibly assume it has some significance in some way then.

Therefore what I have said previously still stands, just the magazine title changes.

Thanks Willem for letting me right that mistake.

Cheers
Alan
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FollowupID: 499954

Follow Up By: Willem - Wednesday, May 09, 2007 at 21:42

Wednesday, May 09, 2007 at 21:42
Alan

No worries.

I doubt that what Ron was doing was desecrating a petroglyph. But that is all assumption on my part.

There are many wonderful examples of rock art and engravings in the Calvert Ranges and Durba Hills and I am very humbled to have been able to see them at leisure before enormous restrictions have come into being. I saw no destruction or vandalism of any of the hundreds of art sites I have been to over the years and I think that this should remain so into the future. With proper management principles in place the art of the Calvert Ranges, Durba Hills and beyond, should be kept open for everyone to see.

Cheers
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FollowupID: 499966

Follow Up By: Billowaggi - Wednesday, May 09, 2007 at 22:09

Wednesday, May 09, 2007 at 22:09
Hi Alan, sorry about stuff up with dates of mag issue, like you I was confused as there was a 'Western Fourwheeldriver' article in 2006 that had an article on travel to the Warri site from the Calvert Range. As far as Billiluna is concerned I would give them a ring and see if they are open for business, I have a phone number for the comunity-08 91688934 - but it may be out of date.

Settled down a bit now! Ken.
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FollowupID: 499986

Follow Up By: Alan W - Thursday, May 10, 2007 at 00:17

Thursday, May 10, 2007 at 00:17
Thanks "little bit angry Ken" for the phone number.

Will try it and see who answers, never know your luck.

Cheers
Alan
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FollowupID: 500019

Reply By: jdpatrol - Tuesday, May 08, 2007 at 22:33

Tuesday, May 08, 2007 at 22:33
Regarding the terms of the permit system - "issued for one month from the date you nominate on the form" . Unless I have missed something I can see this causing problems.

From what I understand it takes around 3 weeks to travel the CSR. If you're coming from eastern states, SA, you have a fair journey before you arrive. You might be want to stay in some places longer than planned due to equipment repairs, or for enjoyment etc.. With a month permit arranged before you leave I think it would be easy to miss the permit start date.

I have found over many years having tight deadlines / bookings, is a real source of stress. We don't book anything with holidays as a result. And many on this site know and understand the importance of the saying "drive to the conditions not an itinerary". With only 1 month I can see people actually rushing the trip for unexpected reasons. Why can't it be longer - Simpson Desert Parks pass is for 12 months.
AnswerID: 238713

Reply By: _gmd_pps - Wednesday, May 09, 2007 at 04:04

Wednesday, May 09, 2007 at 04:04
which political party is going to abolish native title again ?? ... I will vote for them ..
this is not even a bad joke ... it pushes you over the edge with these low lifes ..
next time they come on my property to steal I will cull them ...
I need a permit to see my own backyard ??? something stinks badly ..
have fun
gmd
AnswerID: 238740

Follow Up By: Redback - Wednesday, May 09, 2007 at 13:15

Wednesday, May 09, 2007 at 13:15
I think you'll find that these people have always lived there and now have had their land given back by the government after it was taken from them for droving cattle across, their is no more droving of cattle now so they are intitled to it back, same goes for any stock route that goes through someones land, right?

Seems your saying they can't own any land, or am i wrong.

It goes through a few communities and i think the damage that has been done and would probably happen in the future was enough for them to say enough is enough.

Their land their call

Baz.
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FollowupID: 499840

Follow Up By: _gmd_pps - Wednesday, May 09, 2007 at 20:04

Wednesday, May 09, 2007 at 20:04
This is where we differ .. I do not believe in native title and do not
accept this to be their land .. If the gouvernment thinks different, well I don't
and there are others thinking the same way like me ... I had to give away land twice for a public road .. so I want the same for myself .. a public road to allow me to get to the places I want to .. Unless they are fenced, used in agriculture or any other way which would make trespassing unacceptable ... and don't come with that religous bull ...
have fun
gmd

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FollowupID: 499919

Follow Up By: Redback - Thursday, May 10, 2007 at 07:40

Thursday, May 10, 2007 at 07:40
Yes we do differ, but i think you'll find that they had to keep access for others and tourisum too, i don't think they would be allowed to stop all access, i think only the government can do or approve this.

Baz.
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FollowupID: 500036

Reply By: Member - sparra - Wednesday, May 09, 2007 at 06:58

Wednesday, May 09, 2007 at 06:58
so that means ya can't use the jenkins track to gary junction to go accross to alice?

cheers sparra
AnswerID: 238749

Follow Up By: Willem - Wednesday, May 09, 2007 at 18:24

Wednesday, May 09, 2007 at 18:24
Yes, that one puzzles me as well

Cheers
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FollowupID: 499899

Follow Up By: ExplorOz Team - Michelle - Thursday, May 10, 2007 at 11:52

Thursday, May 10, 2007 at 11:52
Yes I would interpret this to mean to leave the CSR to the east to access Alice Springs, you would need to leave at Well 24 along the Talawanna Track to Windy Corner, then north to Gary Junction, bypassing the Jenkins Track. At Gary Junction the road becomes the Gary Junction Rd but since this enters Ngannyatjarra Land, I would suggest further clarification of restrictions is needed about this route - it must be in the 40 pages!

PS - did you all read my story in Post ID 45167? (reply 7). Makes interesting reading on the matter...
Michelle Martin
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Follow Up By: Willem - Thursday, May 10, 2007 at 17:15

Thursday, May 10, 2007 at 17:15
Hi Michelle

I was away bush last week and didn't see your post, but have read it now.

I am sure that ExplorOz would have been able to provide an excellent service running the permit system for the Martu. We can only hope that the AN4WDC get their act together.

It will interesting to see how things develop in the future as many tracks cross through the Martu Native Title Land

Cheers
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FollowupID: 500128

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