Who knows anything about tacho senders???
Submitted: Sunday, Jul 01, 2007 at 11:10
ThreadID:
47281
Views:
4725
Replies:
7
FollowUps:
5
This Thread has been Archived
Member - Roachie (SA)
Okay so here's the problem (not with MY truck this time)...hahaha
My mate Pud (
Goulburn) has just done the conversion of his previous 4.2TD motor'd Patrol to a 6.5 Chev
The diffs in the 4.2TD are 3.9 (same as
mine). I am running 35" tyres and my speedo is out by about 12%. When My speedo shows 90k/h, I actually doing about 103k/h (GPS) and my tacho reads about 2000rpm.
Now, Pud's just temporarily fitted a set of 35"s to his rear end for testing purposes. His speedo shows 90k/h, GPS shows about 100k/h......BUT tacho shows 2600rpm!!! WTF???
He reckons it doesn't "sound" like it's doing 2600rpm (as in it isn't screaming it's titties off) and I'm starting to think that there is some problem with the tacho sender unit. Is this possible? He says it's showing the correct idle speed (ie: tacho shows about 600rpm @idle and you couldn't drop the idle speed much or it would stall). I would have thought that if the tacho sender was wrong, then the idle speed would've been 'showing' say 1000rpm when it was actually idling at say 600rpm.
So if anybody has any clues, let me know.....and thanks in advance. He wants to come to Warraweena but doesn't want to have to sit on 90k/h all the way.
Reply By: Philip A - Sunday, Jul 01, 2007 at 13:36
Sunday, Jul 01, 2007 at 13:36
Where does the tacho get its signal?
Many cars now use the alternator. If it does originate from the alternator, did he use the Nissan alternator on the chev?
IF so is the Chev crankshaft pulley EXACTLY the same size as the Nissans?
Basically for the reading of the tacho to be correct, the ratio of the alternator pully to the crankshaft pulley will have to be the same as it was on the original engine regardless of which alternator is used. the error will be progressive ie a set %, if out 10% at 500 RPM that is only 50RPM. At 2000RPM it will be 200 RPM error.
Regards Philip A
AnswerID:
250144
Reply By: Ingtar - Sunday, Jul 01, 2007 at 13:52
Sunday, Jul 01, 2007 at 13:52
I don't know much about the standard tachos... did have some for dinner last night though.
With the aftermarket ones I have seen, they tend to have a switch to select the number of cylinders 4, 6, 8.
Since the 6.5 has 8 cylinders, vs the stock having 6, this could account for the difference at speed. The idle bit is strange, although at 600rpm it could only be out by 100, and I have seen some very low reving diesels.
Maybe try an aftermarket, or it may need a different pickup point?
AnswerID:
250148
Follow Up By: Member - Glenn D (NSW) - Sunday, Jul 01, 2007 at 18:19
Sunday, Jul 01, 2007 at 18:19
Hows it going Ingtar,
Are these type of Tacho's for petrol engines , where do they pick off, the coil ?
Guess it multiplies the amount of ignition pulses by 4 for correct RPM but depends on number of cylinders being pulsed.
Glenn.
FollowupID:
511324
Reply By: Martyn (WA) - Sunday, Jul 01, 2007 at 14:12
Sunday, Jul 01, 2007 at 14:12
Roachie,
The Nissan 4.2 has a sender that takes a signal from one of the timing gears, it's bolted into the front timing cover not the alternator. If the new engine is taking the signal from the alternator then as mentioned above the speed of the pulley could be the issue. I'm not sure if the original sender unit signal would be "converted" correctly if the signal now came from the alternator rather than the gizmo that converts a rotary motion into an electrical signal. A strobe light would confirm the accuracy of the tacho to actual engine speed. Has to have an independent power source of course being a diesel.
Hope some of this helps.
AnswerID:
250152
Reply By: Member - Matt Mu (Perth-WA) - Sunday, Jul 01, 2007 at 16:26
Sunday, Jul 01, 2007 at 16:26
Roachie, sounds like a good one but you need more information.
As other have said the Nissan tacho pick-up was a pulse generator in the timing case....either they work or they dont...not usually 'out'.
You need to know where the Chev tacho pickup is....is it Alternator, Fuel Injection Pump or timing case mounted?
You have the answer already if its Alternator....there will most likely be a matching problem with the size of the alt drive/crankshaft pully etc.
Who did this conversion...was it the same people as who did yours??
If the installer have done heaps they would know how to match it perfectly but if its a one off, then prob just an oversight!!
Dont worry about the posts about switching the tacho from six-eight cyl...this was only for old petrol engines that counted the pulses at the ignition coil and then divided that by the number of cylders to give you revs. So doesnt allpy to a diesel.
All the best with it.
Matt.
AnswerID:
250169
Follow Up By: Member - Roachie (SA) - Sunday, Jul 01, 2007 at 17:11
Sunday, Jul 01, 2007 at 17:11
G'day Matt and all the others who have replied.....Thanks for the info.
The motor was installed by my mate, but it was prepared by Brunswicks. There was actually a hold up in it being shipped due to them having to wait for the tacho sender units to arrive (they'd run out of stock).
It isn't attached to the alternator, but there are 2 wires eminating from the front, passenger's side of the block, right near the large pulley on the crank shaft. This makes me think it runs off the timing gear, I guess.
Stupid part of this whole exercise is that he didn't get one word of instructions with the $15,000- "kit" he bought!!! After he installed it he had a lot of strife with the clutch.....couldn't get any clutch action happening. After several unfruitful phone calls to Brunswicks he eventually decided to phone Mark's Adaptors who supplied the adaptor kit to Brunswicks. They were dismayed that their instructions (at least) were not included......they always include comprehensive instructions with anything they sell. Once they faxed him the instructions for their part of the set-up he was able to see in a flash exactly where he'd gone wrong with the clutch.
I suppose what i'm now saying is that perhaps there is some sort of switch or adjustment that needs to be made that changes the Nissan's tacho from looking for a 6 cylinder motor's input, to a 8 cylinder.
The one thing that is irrefutable is that in 4th gear (straight through from motor to tail shaft), there should be no difference in the revs/speed ratio from what he experienced when the 4.2 was in it. That would also be true for the other gears too.
I like the idea of using a strobe light. That might tell him a bit about what is happening.
Thanks again.
Roachie
FollowupID:
511310
Follow Up By: Member - Matt Mu (Perth-WA) - Sunday, Jul 01, 2007 at 17:33
Sunday, Jul 01, 2007 at 17:33
No worries bit more info. These are just inductive pick-ups....so the sensor is just a coil of wire that as you pass a block of metal past you induce a voltage in the form of a sine wave(simplistically)....voltage builds as it approaches and droppes off as it moves away.
So you can imagine a crankshaft with a series of lugs spaced around it that pass the pick-up as it rotates.
The guage counts the pulses and can determine the rotating speed of the crank depending on its settings.
Now because we are matching an OEM tacho to a non OEM inductive pick-up...there could be a calibration that needs to be made to sync them properly and Brunswick should have this info in their 'extensive' kit!!!!!!
If there isnt any adjustments or matching boxes that need to be installed inline to sync the tacho then Im a little lost as to what else could be wrong. The are very simple and apart from an open circuit in the sensor or spaced too far away from the lugs...nothing else can be wrong with them.
I would be giving brunswicks a call since they supplied the kit for the correction process.
Otherwise you could always have a good look at your Roachie and see if there is anything else in yours that the other one doesnt.
Interesting to hear the outcome!
Matt.
FollowupID:
511312
Follow Up By: Member - Roachie (SA) - Sunday, Jul 01, 2007 at 18:02
Sunday, Jul 01, 2007 at 18:02
Cheers mate, I'm hoping he will be able to come over to Warraweena next weekend....Ironically, he may decide not to come because he doesn't want to drive all the way at @ 90k/h (which is doing 2600rpm according to his tacho!!!).
I still reckon that simply cannot be possible UNLESS the clutch was slipping really badly. (And it's not).
Cheers and I'll keep this post alive as the truth emerges....
Roachie
FollowupID:
511319
Follow Up By: Member - Glenn D (NSW) - Sunday, Jul 01, 2007 at 18:38
Sunday, Jul 01, 2007 at 18:38
Maybe I should have read a bit further before giving out theories !
Glenn.
FollowupID:
511331
Reply By: Gerhardp1 - Sunday, Jul 01, 2007 at 21:50
Sunday, Jul 01, 2007 at 21:50
If the gearing is 3.9 and the
wheels are 35" the engine revs will be the same in fourth gear (1:1) as any other vehicle with the same diff/tyre size.
It doesn't matter what the tacho says - mathematics dictate what is happening, and his revs will be the same as yours (give or take a bit for differences in tyre circumference.
Now a simple calculation can be done to work out what is wrong with the tacho.
His tacho appears to be set for a 6 cylinder "pulse", but is getting 2 extra "pulses" every rpm. That means when your tacho shows 2000rpm @ 100k, his tacho is showing 2000*8/6 = 2666rpm. Since this is what he's getting, it suggest to me that the error is in the electronics.
Sort that minor issue out, and the tacho will read correctly. I know Marks sells tacho correction devices when fitting petrol V8s into 6cyl vehicles for that very reason. Maybe Marks can advise on the tacho problem in the diesels as
well, since I reckon they have dealt with putting petrol V8s in what were 6cyl diesel cruisers & patrols.
AnswerID:
250213
Reply By: Eric Experience - Sunday, Jul 01, 2007 at 22:02
Sunday, Jul 01, 2007 at 22:02
Roachie.
If it turns out you have to many pulses coming out of the sender you can get a kit from Jaycar that is used for correcting digital speedos, it will do the same job on a tacho. Eric.
AnswerID:
250219
Reply By: KSV- Monday, Jul 02, 2007 at 09:46
Monday, Jul 02, 2007 at 09:46
8 cyl v 6 is 8/6=1.3333. 2000 RPM * 1.3333=2666
It is doing 2000RPM but showing 2600 (2666 to be exact) because it has 8 cyl v 6 originaly. You have to readjust your taco. IMHO easiest way is to put it apart and glue new scale on top of old one.
Cheers
AnswerID:
250268