Dual Battery Problem
Submitted: Sunday, Jul 01, 2007 at 14:57
ThreadID:
47287
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5007
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8
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12
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Scoey (QLD)
Hi all, I know very little about how dual battery systems work, but I am fairly sure that
mine ISN'T working! ;-) In case i makes any difference, the vehicle is a '94 GXL 80 Series 1FZ-FE. Both batteries are relatively new but the aux is down to about 6 volts. The starting battery has about 12.4 volts.
When the motor is running the starting battery goes up to around 14.4 volts but the aux stays on 6v. At what point should it show some sort of charge being recieved?
I could write 1000 words about what my system contains but I figured a picture would be better.
This is my aux battery with what I assume is the isolator thingy on the side. The positive terminal is the one in the foreground.
This is a close up of it.
My uneducated brain tells me that it's prob this isolator thing that is preventing charge getting to the aux battery. But how do I test it?
Any other ideas would be welcome!
Hope the pics worked! :-S
Cheers
Scoey!
Reply By: jeffwa - Sunday, Jul 01, 2007 at 15:21
Sunday, Jul 01, 2007 at 15:21
Yeah the solinoid is probably duff, but if the battery is at 6 volts it's gone too.
So you'll need a new aux battery and just replace the old solinoid with a RedArc. You can buy them off Ebay for less than $100.
12.4v is also a little low for your starter, so that might be on the way out too. Should be about 12.6-12.7volts when it is charged at 22 degrees c.
AnswerID:
250162
Follow Up By: Scoey (QLD) - Sunday, Jul 01, 2007 at 15:45
Sunday, Jul 01, 2007 at 15:45
Great!
Well at least I have an answer! Both batteries are still under warranty so maybe I get get em swapped for free! Can't get shot for asking eh! ;-)
Cheers
Scoey!
FollowupID:
511292
Follow Up By: Member - Jiarna (NT) - Monday, Jul 02, 2007 at 00:38
Monday, Jul 02, 2007 at 00:38
I bought a Redarc off Ebay for under $100 - had to go and buy something else within a few weeks!!
FollowupID:
511404
Reply By: Rock Ape - Sunday, Jul 01, 2007 at 15:29
Sunday, Jul 01, 2007 at 15:29
Yep probably is the solinoid. Thats the thingy you are talking about.
I don't like them as one failed on my vehicle years ago and you don't notice till your second battery is stuffed.,
All I use now is a plain old manual isolating switch, so if I forget to turn it off or on tis my fault.
You can fault find by testing across the 2 smaller wires when the engine is running. If you have voltage there then the solinoid is stuffed or a bad connection.
If you have no voltage it will be where the solinoid has been switched from
The Ape
AnswerID:
250164
Follow Up By: Scoey (QLD) - Sunday, Jul 01, 2007 at 15:53
Sunday, Jul 01, 2007 at 15:53
Thanks for the info Rock Ape! I tested across the two small wires while the engine was running and got nothing. I tested across the fat wires and got 8.25v if that means anything? What do you mean by, "if you have no voltage it will be where the solenoid has been switched from"?
Can you get an automatic switch for isolating the aux? Or is that essentially what I have/had? Maybe I need one of those battery monitors for in the cab? and a manual switch? Might be the go.
Cheers
Scoey!
FollowupID:
511293
Follow Up By: jeffwa - Sunday, Jul 01, 2007 at 16:15
Sunday, Jul 01, 2007 at 16:15
A simple way around that is a digital volt meter with alarm. Cost about $30.
When my electronic isolater failed, I was just driving down the highway and my aux battery voltage alarm started beeping saying it was under 11.5volts. Pulled over, joined the two leads together with a bolt and kept on trucking. Then at
camp I just pulled the leads apart until it was time to leave. When I got home I put an Arrid smart solinoid in and that's been in there ever since (similar to the redarc).
Actually, here you go, this is almost identical to the one I've been using for a gew years now. It's not the same brand, prob a chinese knock off but it's the right price! :-) Cheap, simple, reliable and automatic. What more could you want!
Site Link
FollowupID:
511298
Follow Up By: Scoey (QLD) - Sunday, Jul 01, 2007 at 16:31
Sunday, Jul 01, 2007 at 16:31
G'Day Jeff,
Thanks for the link! Might be worth a look! Not a bad option!
Cheers
Scoey!
FollowupID:
511301
Follow Up By: Rock Ape - Sunday, Jul 01, 2007 at 16:35
Sunday, Jul 01, 2007 at 16:35
Scoey, you have it right, what you are trying to do is use a small amount of power to switch a larger load. For example if you tried to turn on an oven with a light switch the switch would go BOOM. So what happens with ba solinoid is the small wires come from a small source IE: a light switch, this pulls in the solinoid coil that switches a large set of contacts to handle the load.
The little wires could be switched from an oil pressure switch or alternator or ignition so you have to trace them to see where they come from.
Also make sure you clean the spots you test at, I noticed from the photo's a lot of corrosion on the solinoid.
The Ape
FollowupID:
511303
Follow Up By: Scoey (QLD) - Sunday, Jul 01, 2007 at 16:42
Sunday, Jul 01, 2007 at 16:42
You noticed that huh? hehe! Always a down side to posting pics of your neglected old rig hey! ;-) Yeah I think I may have it cornered. I just fed 12v into the small wire that's not the earth and got a healthy clunking click! So I think it's safe to assume that whatever is supposed to be powering the solenoid, isn't due to either a dodgy connection (as you said) or an in cab switch that's not on etc.
At least I know what I'm looking for now! Too bad my aux sounds like it's cactus already!
Thanks for your help!
Cheers
Scoey!
FollowupID:
511305
Reply By: Member - Matt Mu (Perth-WA) - Sunday, Jul 01, 2007 at 16:00
Sunday, Jul 01, 2007 at 16:00
Scoey do you know how the solenoid is switched??
Ie when is it supposed to turn on? This could be wired from your ignition so than when you shut the engine down it isolates the second battery. Not the best but does work. Otherwise unless you have another type of controller the solenoid will turn on manually by a switch in you cabin!
You need to find out how its turned on and then make sure that power is getting to the solenoid or it will never work.....Unless you get power there (small wires one power the other earth for switch) then the large contacts will never close.
So the colse Hersey (solenoid) could be stuffed but unless its getting power it will never work, so check that first and then you are safe to assume the solenoid is knackered!
Goodluck
Matt.
AnswerID:
250166
Follow Up By: Scoey (QLD) - Sunday, Jul 01, 2007 at 16:08
Sunday, Jul 01, 2007 at 16:08
G'Day Matt,
I only just found out what the hell that thing was! I didn't know it also had a switch!
So let me see if I have this right....
The solenoid is basically a heavy duty switch that disconects the aux battery from the starting battery (ideally when the vehicle is off). The solenoid is operated by another switch (probably the ignition or another switch in the cabin).
If that's right then I have a starting point!
Cheers for the info!
Scoey!
FollowupID:
511296
Follow Up By: Member - Matt Mu (Perth-WA) - Sunday, Jul 01, 2007 at 17:38
Sunday, Jul 01, 2007 at 17:38
Spot on Scoey!! Derek has saved the day...picture worth a thousand words!
You just have to find out how your switch is 'switched'.
All the best
Matt.
FollowupID:
511314
Follow Up By: Scoey (QLD) - Sunday, Jul 01, 2007 at 18:23
Sunday, Jul 01, 2007 at 18:23
Yeah I tried to trace the wire back but it went into a big H/D fuse block then it looked to go into the main bundle of wires the comes out of the firewall - so I'm guessing it's hooked into the ignition. I ran out of good light and it started getting cold outside so I gave up! If it's hooked into the ignition it's prob a bad connection so I'll go through it all and clean them up! (coz I couldn't find a blown fuse either!)
Thanks everyone for your input, this truely is an awesome
forum. I almost felt like I had a bunch of experts sitting around the engine bay with me! I owe you all a beer I suppose! haha!
Cheers
Scoey!
FollowupID:
511326
Reply By: Derek from Affordable Batteries & Radiators - Sunday, Jul 01, 2007 at 16:17
Sunday, Jul 01, 2007 at 16:17
Here is a picture from Piranha
AnswerID:
250168
Follow Up By: Scoey (QLD) - Sunday, Jul 01, 2007 at 16:32
Sunday, Jul 01, 2007 at 16:32
Thanks for the diagram Derek, you obviously worked out I am a "pictures" man! haha! That makes a lot of sense now! I also checked out the piranha website and read the bit that goes along with the diag, thanks again!
Cheers
Scoey!
FollowupID:
511302
Reply By: Member - Peter R (QLD) - Sunday, Jul 01, 2007 at 17:24
Sunday, Jul 01, 2007 at 17:24
Scoey,
Just wonder if you had a redarc isolator and it was one of the earlier models which is mentioned in the Redarc article below
QUOTE
TECHNICAL TIPS
Voltage Changes
to our SBI12 SmartStart
In our Winter 2006 Newsletter, we reported that we
had numerous inquiries about problems experienced
when installing SBI12 SmartStart Solenoids in vehicles
such as the Toyota 100 Series Landcruiser V8 4WD.
The complaint was that the second battery isn’t being
charged as a result of the Smart Start not switching
because the 100 Series Alternator is not reaching the
required 13.6 volts. The alternator field circuit is
controlled by the engine ECU and it seems that it is
not allowing the voltage to rise above 13.5V. We
have since received information from the field that this
situation exists in a number of other vehicles including
Toyota, Ford & Hyundai.
Therefore from the 1st February 2007 we have
modified all 12V models being produced so they
activate at 13.2 Volts bringing the auxiliary battery into
the charging circuit. REDARC also reset the Smart
Start turn off voltage to 12.5 volts. With these new
settings the installation will work a treat. The Redarc
Part Number for the SmartStart will remain the same,
i.e. SBI12.
UNQUOTE
If buying off ebay make sure you get the new one
Pedro
AnswerID:
250175
Follow Up By: Scoey (QLD) - Sunday, Jul 01, 2007 at 18:25
Sunday, Jul 01, 2007 at 18:25
G'Day Pedro! That's a handy snippet of info. I might try and measure the voltage from the alternator and see what I get?
Cheers
Scoey!
FollowupID:
511328
Reply By: Member - Doug T (W.A) - Sunday, Jul 01, 2007 at 22:15
Sunday, Jul 01, 2007 at 22:15
Scoey
I know Derek will agree with this, It may not be the solenoid, it could be that the battery has a collapsed cell and is robbing power from the main battery , I had that occur to my set up, Replaced the battery and all was
well. so get them tested first.
If you drive a vehicle that when on corrugations can generate severe vibration then normal wet cell batteries won't last, I now use Optima with spiralcell withstands extreme vibrations and I have no more problems.
www.optimabatteries.com.au/
Doug
AnswerID:
250223
Reply By: Nick R (VIC) - Monday, Jul 02, 2007 at 09:10
Monday, Jul 02, 2007 at 09:10
Scoey
I assume you have the leads around the right way on the charge controller?
might be a silly question but noone else has asked it!!!
I just have a 90 amp voltage sensitive relay which gets a voltage read from the input terminal. Then it cuts in when the voltage goes over 12.8v or something like that. If i was to switch over the input and output cables it would still work for a while until one day the aux battery went below 12.8v.
Now yours is down to 6v I wouldn't hold much hope of saving it..... some might beg to differ...
NickR
AnswerID:
250262