Air bag dilemma
Submitted: Saturday, Jul 21, 2007 at 10:49
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Ian from Thermoguard Instruments
Hi ExOzers,
Later this year, our trusty Land Rover Discovery will be 10 years (and about 240,000 km) old. The Owners Handbook for this model, fitted with driver and passenger airbags, is adamant that the air bags must be replaced on the tenth anniversary of the vehicle's first sale.
Please correct me if I'm wrong but I think Land Rovers will be the first commonly available 4WD wagons to face this requirement. [As many of you will know, Land Rover have pioneered most of the significant innovations and developments in 4WD design and safety over the last six decades... Any bites?] It is sure to become an increasingly common problem in the next few years, as more SRS-equipped vehicles reach their tenth anniversary.
Now, of course, I want our vehicle to remain safe but I can see air bag replacement being a very expensive and potentially self-defeating exercise.
I'm a great believer in the "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" approach. For example, the only time I've had problems with vehicle air conditioning is AFTER having it "serviced" by so-called experts. So my last several vehicles have never had the air cons touched while they continue to work properly, including the Disco's nearly 10 y.o. system.
As I believe there's probably little alternative to using authorised dealers for the air bag replacement, my experience tells me there's a significant chance of the job not being performed properly, defeating the purpose of the exercise. (Let me tell you what I think of "authorised dealer" servicing & workmanship (several makes, not just LR) when you have a week or so to spare!)
I'm sure the "letter of the law" types will insist that, the day after the anniversary date, our air bags will cease to be operational and thus endanger now only ourselves but every other road user. However, common sense dictates that the operation life of such components is hugely variable. They may have been inoperable for the last nine and a half years or they
well may work perfectly in another nine and a half years time.
So, to the automotive industry types out there especially (but also to anyone with reliable first-hand knowledge), what's the go? Should I just bite the bullet and hope the "stealer" does the job properly? Will my insurance suddenly become null & void if I don't? Will my vehicle be considered unroadworthy if I don't? (No annual checks in Qld, where it's registered. Is out of date air bags a "fail" item in NSW??) Thanks for your help.
Ian & Annette
Reply By: pepper2 - Saturday, Jul 21, 2007 at 11:17
Saturday, Jul 21, 2007 at 11:17
Bit like the Y2K situation were the world was going to stop because computers couldnt go past 2000 ..............but you might have an issue with your insurer if it was deemed unroadworthy...
AnswerID:
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Reply By: Member - Phillip S (WA) - Saturday, Jul 21, 2007 at 11:48
Saturday, Jul 21, 2007 at 11:48
I agree with you ian...I believe that these are "modern devices" to get us to exchange our vehicles on a regular basis by giving us the "guilts" and so prevent us from enjoying a vehicle for longer than they deem necessary. If you are the fortunate owner of a good 4WD which has provided years of good service without fault....then why should you get rid of it...... by them imposing totally unecessary and COSTLY demands which only attack our hip pockets when history shows us the contrary...however there will always be "stories" of those who dared and payed the price......BUT I have not heard of any......so I am with you ...if it ain't broke DON'T fix it....I remember working for a firm that had a two year replacement maintenance policy wether it needed it or not......saw lots of perfect stuff thrown away for no reason....I believe they dropped that "policy" many years ago after I left there.....someone woke up!....regards Phil.
AnswerID:
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Follow Up By: Member - shane (SA) - Saturday, Jul 21, 2007 at 12:06
Saturday, Jul 21, 2007 at 12:06
this could mean that any vehicle that has air bags and is over ten years old can not be sold as it will not be road worthy, i can't see car yards replacing airbags before they resell their stock. so this will mean a change in the way the insurance companies see the problem or a lot of cheap nine and three quarter year old vehicles.
cheers, Shane.
FollowupID:
514757
Reply By: garrycol - Saturday, Jul 21, 2007 at 12:07
Saturday, Jul 21, 2007 at 12:07
The issue of course is that the material that the bags are made of perishes and the explosive material that fires and blows up the bags also deteriorates.
The cost is prohibative to replace the two bags in my car will cost more than it is worth.
The questions are does a failed airbag make the car unroadworthy - answer no - most cars that have them fitted also have models without them so if the bag fails it is the same as being in the same model without an airbag. The second is that even in 2007 airbags are not a mandatory fitment in any new vehicle - there is no ADR that requires their fitment. The main safety feature is still the
seat belt.
The other issue is that the regulators do not require the airbags to be replaced after any period so if it was an issue as far as they are concerned it would have been legislated.
While airbags are no a legislated and required saftey feature of cars I do not see it as an issue. Insurance companies may try to use it as an issue to get out of paying but if it ended going to court I do not believe they have a leg to stand on while the regulators do not consider it an issue.
AnswerID:
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Follow Up By: Member - WORM (VIC) - Saturday, Jul 21, 2007 at 14:57
Saturday, Jul 21, 2007 at 14:57
Might want to be careful if it went legal although the regulators do not state time requirements for air bags to be replaced the manufacturer has placed a time requirement and most courts and insurance companies will argue the point it is a requirement as stated by the manufacturer of the product.
As you said Garry the issue pertains to the material the bag is made of. This might sound funny but would anyone out there trust an unused, unsealed condom after 10 years of sitting in the glove box. Hmm both the air bag and condom will save lives.
Food for Thought or good humour I reckon take your pick.
Cheers Worm
FollowupID:
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Reply By: Member - joc45 (WA) - Saturday, Jul 21, 2007 at 12:09
Saturday, Jul 21, 2007 at 12:09
Hi Ian,
It's a sad
sign of the times, but somehow necessary from a safety point of view. In the past, we only replaced something if it had measurably worn out or failed.
But here we see a situation related to safety, like in aircraft, where critical items are replaced regardless of condition after a given number of operating hours; ie, it has a design life, and the designer cannot guarantee that it will work properly after that predicted life. No consolation after the event if it didn't work!
And I'm not sure how one would test an airbag - a bit like testing hand grenades to see if they work ok!
I dread to think of the cost of replacing all the front and side airbags. Might cost more than the worth of a 10yo vehicle.
And I understand you concern about the job not being done properly. From my experiences with dealers, there's no need to spend several hours preaching to the converted!
cheers,
Gerry
AnswerID:
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Reply By: Member - DOZER- Saturday, Jul 21, 2007 at 12:17
Saturday, Jul 21, 2007 at 12:17
Ive heard that before too....yes, just incase the gas charge has leaked out....that means
mine, being 12 years old, should also be replaced.....i better look for something to hit....Toyota air bags are $1500 each. Excess is only 500
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Follow Up By: nowimnumberone - Saturday, Jul 21, 2007 at 19:08
Saturday, Jul 21, 2007 at 19:08
ah yes dozer but will the excess still be $500 if they knock you back on a claim?
one must ponder this
cheers
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Follow Up By: Member - DOZER- Sunday, Jul 22, 2007 at 07:07
Sunday, Jul 22, 2007 at 07:07
Agreed...and it will probably be on the grounds that my bullbar is not airbag compatable
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Reply By: Member - 'Lucy' - Saturday, Jul 21, 2007 at 12:25
Saturday, Jul 21, 2007 at 12:25
Ian
This is a very simple dilema to deal with as follows:
(1) relate it to LPG gas tanks in vehicles. They have to be removed, inspected, tested and stamped as such every 10 years whether they need it or not.
If you don't do that your insurance is null and void in an accident (vehicle) or mishap with LPG system
You are also liable to further lawsuit for any damages incurred.
(2) Sooooooooooo! if the manufacturer of the vehicle says must be replaced every 10 years, then regardless of whether they beed to be or not, I would respectfully suggest that the aforementioned issues of insurance, liability etc etc would also apply in that situation.
This may give you further food for thought, research etc.
Anyway, just buy a Toyota and you won't have those/these issues to deal with. (LOL)
PS
Your EGT sytem is working beautifully and hasn't missed a beat since I installed it some years ago.
AnswerID:
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Follow Up By: Ian from Thermoguard Instruments - Saturday, Jul 21, 2007 at 14:53
Saturday, Jul 21, 2007 at 14:53
Hi Lucy,
Pleased the EGT is still behaving
well.
A bit of a difference, I would have thought, between LPG tanks and air bags:
(a) The requirement to have LPG tanks tested at 10 year intervals is a
well-known LEGAL requirement. Hence, it's a clear breach of the law if you don't. Is this the case with air bags? That's what I'm trying to find out.
(b) LPG tanks can be tested and, if sound, re-certified for another ten years. AFAIK, this is not possible with air bags. [As someone mentioned, the testing procedure would be similar to testing hand grenades!]
As mentioned in another follow-up, I have sent a query to Qld Transport and will try to do the same with the RACQ. Was just hoping someone else may have already done all this.
"Anyway, just buy a Toyota and you won't have those/these issues to deal with." Hey, I know I'm getting on a bit and not a noted 'early adopter' of the newest technology - but even I don't want to go that far back into the past. I'm not so much of a Luddite as to want a Toyota!!
Ian
FollowupID:
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Follow Up By: garrycol - Saturday, Jul 21, 2007 at 15:15
Saturday, Jul 21, 2007 at 15:15
Testing - if processes would not be as destructive as you indicate - the cost is repacing the whole unit. There is no reason why the bag cannot be inspected, and if the bag is OK - preserving material renewed and the bag repacked - a new firing mechanism would be cheap. Also we have to buy original equiment from the manufacturers as there is not enough demand to other people to make them. They should be relatively cheap.
It should also be remembered that in Aust they are a Supplementary Restraint System to be used in conjunction with
seat belts - in many countries including many US states
seat belts are not mandatory and airbags are the sole restraint system - hence manufactures in these markets have to have 'use by' dates which by default also apply to all markets. I also suspect that the US also legislates these time frames and the manuafactures just follow these.
FollowupID:
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Follow Up By: garrycol - Saturday, Jul 21, 2007 at 15:18
Saturday, Jul 21, 2007 at 15:18
As a PS the same issue also applys to the firing mecahnism in
seat belt retraction systems -
mine also has a 10year life and should be replaced when the airbags are done.
FollowupID:
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Reply By: Mike Harding - Saturday, Jul 21, 2007 at 13:30
Saturday, Jul 21, 2007 at 13:30
I wouldn't bother... but then I'm a bit like that :)
Suggested/required replacement time and design life are two quite different things. If the replacement time for the airbags is listed at ten years their design life is probably 15 to 20 years. We don't design safety items we think will have a life of 11 years and spec replacement at 10 years.
Insurance? I imagine they would need to show that your failure to replace the air bags had directly contributed to an accident just as if you didn't replace your engine oil until 11,000km they would need to show your failure to maintain the engine contributed to an accident.
Safety wise? Up to you, I reckon the best safety feature is to avoid hitting things, which is not so difficult.
Life is too short to worry about 50 million different rules every day.
Mike Harding
AnswerID:
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Reply By: Andrew from Vivid Adventures - Saturday, Jul 21, 2007 at 13:55
Saturday, Jul 21, 2007 at 13:55
Yeah - like as though 10 years is even a scientifically arrived at figure... sure thing.
Why not 9 years or 11 years?
Why not a range of years depending on the temperature or humidity levels it has been used under?
This is an entirely arbitrary thing...
Cheers
Andrew.
AnswerID:
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Reply By: Turist - Saturday, Jul 21, 2007 at 14:27
Saturday, Jul 21, 2007 at 14:27
Have you asked the manufacturer, nrma and the insurance companies on their
views - their replies may be interesting.
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Follow Up By: Ian from Thermoguard Instruments - Saturday, Jul 21, 2007 at 14:37
Saturday, Jul 21, 2007 at 14:37
Thanks all for the thoughful responses so far.
Turist,
I've just sent off an email to Qld Transport asking the quesions about "roadworthyness" and whether "current" air bags are mandatory to get a Safety Certificate in Qld (necessary before offering a vehicle for private sale).
I'll, of course, let you all know when & if I receive a reply, but my original query on here was to see if others had previously been down this track and already had the answers.
[Should you never hear from me again, suspect that I may have made the mistake of holding my breath while waiting for a straight answer from a govt dept.]
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Reply By: Member - Kiwi Kia - Saturday, Jul 21, 2007 at 17:26
Saturday, Jul 21, 2007 at 17:26
I think that there is as much fact in the statement as there is in the following...
"[As many of you will know, Land Rover have pioneered most of the significant innovations and developments in 4WD design and safety over the last six decades... "
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Follow Up By: Ian from Thermoguard Instruments - Saturday, Jul 21, 2007 at 18:01
Saturday, Jul 21, 2007 at 18:01
Please explain?...
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Follow Up By: garrycol - Saturday, Jul 21, 2007 at 19:26
Saturday, Jul 21, 2007 at 19:26
What is there to explain? The statement is self expanatory:)
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Follow Up By: Ian from Thermoguard Instruments - Sunday, Jul 22, 2007 at 08:58
Sunday, Jul 22, 2007 at 08:58
Nope, I'm still in the dark. What is "the statement" that is being compared to my fundamental and universal truth about 4WD development??
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Follow Up By: Member - Kiwi Kia - Sunday, Jul 22, 2007 at 09:07
Sunday, Jul 22, 2007 at 09:07
The Owners Handbook for this model, fitted with driver and passenger airbags, is adamant ...
..."that the air bags must be replaced on the tenth anniversary of the vehicle's first sale".
Or..
The tooth fairy lives at the bottom of my garden !
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Reply By: FZJ 80 - Saturday, Jul 21, 2007 at 18:30
Saturday, Jul 21, 2007 at 18:30
Hello Ian.
I recall going thru a similar quandry several years ago when i came up against a 91 Mercedes Benz that was just over 10 years old. Clearly on the b pillar was a replacement date for the drivers airbag of 2001 (10 Years). My enquiries led me to find out that MB had extended the replacement interval to 20 or 25 years from memory which in reality would be never as many cars are dead and buried by then.
Also in Qld as far as safety certificates go no date
test is in the code of practice, however the airbag fault light must not be illuminated.
Regards
Greg
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Follow Up By: FZJ 80 - Saturday, Jul 21, 2007 at 18:37
Saturday, Jul 21, 2007 at 18:37
Ian,
Forgot to add, Not that your 4wd is made by MB but if the airbags are sourced from the same manufacturer the interval may have been extended fro several manufacturers.
Regards
Greg
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Follow Up By: Ian from Thermoguard Instruments - Sunday, Jul 22, 2007 at 08:55
Sunday, Jul 22, 2007 at 08:55
Hi Greg,
That is very interesting information. Thanks. I will have to try another "getting blood out of a stone" exercise and see if I can get a straight answer out of LR Australia. Fortunately, there are several "back doors" to LR Technical Bulletins, etc.
ian
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Reply By: zad - Saturday, Jul 21, 2007 at 21:27
Saturday, Jul 21, 2007 at 21:27
If a vehicle manufacturer states that an air bag should be replced after 10 years, then you'd have to deduce from that that after 10 years the airbag would be useless. Since it is not legally compulsory to have them replaced, you could now consider your car to be "airbag-less". Hmm....don't know about you but to me that spells body lifts and cheaper bull bars :).
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Reply By: Pomgonewalkabout - Sunday, Jul 22, 2007 at 08:29
Sunday, Jul 22, 2007 at 08:29
Might be cheaper to part exchange the Disco for a Defender.
I don't have an airbag problem LOL
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Reply By: westozal - Sunday, Jul 22, 2007 at 12:12
Sunday, Jul 22, 2007 at 12:12
Hi,
Looking for good answers on this one.....my air bag on the L.H.S is constantly giving me problems...inflates all of its own accord quite often and needs replacing with a much younger model. Unfortunately I don't drive a Discovery so cant use that excuse......might just be worth buying one....
Regards AL.
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Follow Up By: Member - Norm C (QLD) - Wednesday, Jul 25, 2007 at 19:13
Wednesday, Jul 25, 2007 at 19:13
No bites Al? I got a laugh anyway.
Norm C
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Reply By: G.T. - Wednesday, Jul 25, 2007 at 17:35
Wednesday, Jul 25, 2007 at 17:35
My guess is that L/Rover back then deemed that their air bags were good for 10yrs. After that they could not be held responsible for non deployment in the event of an accident. Hence the requirement to replace them. In other words they wre covering their r/send in case some one had problems.
It would be call if you replaced them or not. L/rover - BMW - now Ford . Are Ford liable for B.M.W. vehicles . Are B.M.W. liable for L/Rover vehicles or what is the situation? Just my thoughts. Regards G.T.
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