Landcruiser v's Patrol... But with detail

Submitted: Monday, Aug 13, 2007 at 14:09
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I know I’ll hit the Toyota v’s Nissan nerve here, however please respond based on my particular requirements and comment objectively.

I currently run around in a LC80 4.5L and have been keeping a close eye on newer models. I am interested to hear peoples views between the LC100 4.2TD and Patrol 3.0TD.

The vehicle will be required for medium to hard off road work with long range, remote touring capabilities. I will always travel with at least one other vehicle when travelling remote or pushing into the hard terrain.

Based on my particular circumstances this is what I see are the big differences between the Tojo and Nissan.

Price – Nissan 10-15K cheaper, although resale value isn’t nearly as good as the LC.

Motor is claimed to be better quality, refined and reliable in the LC, with fuel consumption being comparable between the two (at least compared to the 4.5L I currently fill).

Under carriage – Comments appreciated here. IFS in the LC, better on road and dirt tracks. I need to face it, this is a big country and as much as I’d prefer to always be knee deep in mud, sand or water there will be a lot of black top and dirt roads that’ll need covering. V’s the solid bars front and rear in the Patrol as a trade off for on road comfort. How much more comfortable is the LC100 over the solid axel Nissan and how much worse is the IFS when the going gets tough? The under carriage of the Patrol has always been well respected, practically the rear LSD. If I were to go with a single lokka, contrary to the norm, would you keep the good LSD in the rear of the Patrol and put the lokka in the front, or not? I hear the front diff in the IFS LC isn’t as strong as it once was or should – fact/fiction? How would a lokka go here? With that in mind and knowing the LSD in the LC isn’t as effective as the Patrol I would opt for rear lokka. In serious off road there wouldn’t be much of a contest, rear lokka and IFS v’s front lokka and good rear LSD with solids bars.

Tailgate – In my opinion the horizontal split in the LC is much more practical then the barn doors of the patrol as far as shelter, sitting and loading goes. Haven’t decided yet about relocating the spare, not too exp though with Kaymar system.

Interior – I’ve heard the build quality here is better in the LC and is more comfortable for long drives. Opinions?

All comments and opinions are much appreciated.

Alex
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Reply By: Dave Thomson - Monday, Aug 13, 2007 at 14:18

Monday, Aug 13, 2007 at 14:18
Good cast Alex , but no I'm not saying a word, if you have to ask then its obviously a wind up................LOL
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Follow Up By: Member - 'Lucy' - Monday, Aug 13, 2007 at 14:35

Monday, Aug 13, 2007 at 14:35
Dead right there
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Follow Up By: Member - Roachie (SA) - Monday, Aug 13, 2007 at 15:05

Monday, Aug 13, 2007 at 15:05
Hey you 2 cynics!!! The bloke asked a legit question and the answer is quite obvious. The 3 litre Nissan is a trouble-free option. If you look around carefully you will find a very nice 2000 model for about $20K which should last you at least 3 months.

The Toyota is weak off road, but does have nice comfy seats.

You pays ya money; ya takes ya chances!!!!!
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Follow Up By: Kumunara (NT) - Monday, Aug 13, 2007 at 20:31

Monday, Aug 13, 2007 at 20:31
I have to disagree with you about the seats.

I have problems with my lower back. I can drive my patrol for 1,000s of kms without much discomfort.

I drive a 100 series for a couple of hundred kms and have shooting pains down the back of my legs and pains in my lower back.

I will however I will qualify this with the fact that the 100 series I drive is a Govt standard model. I cannot comment on the more upmarket models.

That is the seats. The other is headroom. I sit in my patrol and have plenty of headroom I sit in the 100 series and the roof is touching my head. The grab handle is touching my head just above my right ear. Drive on a rough road and I get hit in the head continuously by the roof and the grab handle.

For those suffering from ducks disease a 100 series is possible a viable option.




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Follow Up By: Member - Alex K (NSW) - Monday, Aug 13, 2007 at 20:45

Monday, Aug 13, 2007 at 20:45
I'm 6'3" and don't have any problems with the LC80. Maybe the short japs designed the IFS model not made for Aust conditions.
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Follow Up By: Motherhen - Monday, Aug 13, 2007 at 22:35

Monday, Aug 13, 2007 at 22:35
Like Kumunara, we find the Patrol more comfy and roomy. We bought ours after driving the one our son had just bought, and found our backs were better after a long trip, instead of the usual staggering out like a bent paper clip. My husband has back pain and found it the most comfortable ride. Likewise, our Landcruisers aren't up-market models. There is also more leg room in the Patrol for my large sized husband.
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Follow Up By: Dave Thomson - Tuesday, Aug 14, 2007 at 14:20

Tuesday, Aug 14, 2007 at 14:20
So there we have it , if you want a comfy seat get a Nissan........
if you actually want to drive it ............!!!!!!!!!
now where did I put that crash helmet...........LOL
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Follow Up By: Kumunara (NT) - Tuesday, Aug 14, 2007 at 18:08

Tuesday, Aug 14, 2007 at 18:08
Almost correct Dave


If you want a comfortable seat and a comfortable ride.....Nissan
If you want to drive it.................................................Nissan
If you want to wear a crash helmet..............................Toyota

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Follow Up By: Motherhen - Tuesday, Aug 14, 2007 at 22:28

Tuesday, Aug 14, 2007 at 22:28
Spot on Kumunara.
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Follow Up By: Crackles - Wednesday, Aug 15, 2007 at 00:30

Wednesday, Aug 15, 2007 at 00:30
Kumunara if "the roof is touching your head" when seated in a 100 series then that makes you 6' 7" tall. I doubt many cars would fit you in that case. I'm 6' 2" & despite driving at ridicuously fast speeds over rough tracks on many occations have never hit my head on the roof. If you do then I'd suggest wearing your seat belt ;-) Either that or the shocks need replacing.
The 100 series doesn't have a hand rail next to your ear in fact I haven't seen a 105 series with one fitted there either. (they have one on the 'A' pillar) Even on the passenger side there is 120mm distance to the grab rail. Banging your head! You aren't exagerating by any chance now?
Not sure how much leg room one needs either but again at 6'2" I have the seat forward on the 2nd notch & without that big Nissan transmission tunnel & the fact the car is nearly 100mm wider there is far more foot room in the Cruiser too.

If the 80 series fits you Alex then the 100 will be no problem as it has more space in every direction.
Cheers Craig..............
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Follow Up By: Kumunara (NT) - Thursday, Aug 16, 2007 at 07:37

Thursday, Aug 16, 2007 at 07:37
Crackles



The vehicle I drive is the standard 100 series. It is Govt issue. Have a look at the standard 100 series and you will see the grab handle.

I wear a seat belt and at the vehicle has only done 13,000 kms the shocks shouldn't need replacing yet.

Check the specks and you will see that the Patrol and Landruiser are approximately the same size. The cruiser is 100 mm wider but the patrol is 160 mm longer. I do not have any problem with the width. I do not have a problem with foot room in either.

The landcruiser is higher than the Patrol - The seats in the Landcruiser are a lot higher. The distance between the seat and the roor is less in the Landcruiser than the Patrol.

For you info I am 190 cms and weigh in at about 130 kgs. At 190 cms my head is touching the roof. If you don't believe me come to Katherine and i will show you.

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Follow Up By: Kumunara (NT) - Thursday, Aug 16, 2007 at 09:26

Thursday, Aug 16, 2007 at 09:26
Crackles


I checked on the specifications of the patrol and the Landcruiser and found the following

Width
Landcruiser 1940 mm
Patrol 1940 mm

Length
Landcruiser 4890 mm
Patrol 5050 mm

Height
Landcruiser 1890 mm
Patrol 1855 mm

The Landcrusier is the same width and shorter.

Price
landcruiser $72,774.
Patrol $51,990.

There is a big difference there. $20,784 difference.
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Follow Up By: Crackles - Thursday, Aug 16, 2007 at 17:22

Thursday, Aug 16, 2007 at 17:22
You may wish to get your tape measure recalibrated, here are the measurements that count comparing like vehicles, GXL Vs ST.
Leg room. (seats adjusted fully back) Back rest of seat to brake pedal. Toy 1050. Nis 1045.
Head room. (with Nissan seat adjusted right down) Seat to roof. Toy 1020. Niss1010.
Knee room. Seat to dash. Toy 330. Niss 300.
Head room. Head to door frame. Toy 120. Niss 80.
Shoulder width. Toy 1470. Niss 1390.
Foot room. Transmission tunnel to kick panel. Toy 530. Niss 470.
Seat width. Toy 540. Niss 520.
Centre console width. Toy 300. Niss 250.

It didn't matter which way I measured the cab the Toyota came up bigger in every dimension.

$20,784..........coincidently the same amount of money a replacement 3 litre motor costs out of warrenty (kidding ;-)
Cheers Craig...........

PS: Standard models are actually 105 series. (solid axle)
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Follow Up By: Member - Ivan (ACT) - Thursday, Aug 16, 2007 at 19:50

Thursday, Aug 16, 2007 at 19:50
G'day Craig - interesting numbers indeed!!

You obviously have access to both - wonder whether you could measure the inside width of the back seat?? That's one thing with three kids that drove me towards the 100 series (but I was only in a Toyota market)

One of the things which I didn't like about the GU was the rear doors - too claustrophobic trying to work between them, as opposed to the instant back table of the cruiser which you can have a party around..
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Reply By: Member - lyndon K (SA) - Monday, Aug 13, 2007 at 14:19

Monday, Aug 13, 2007 at 14:19
Hi
We own a TD 78 l/cruiser. Have hired the 3 litre TD patrol a couple of times, both times they were auto's, what a slug. Wouldn't pull the skin off a custard, what the manual is like i don't know. 3 litre seems too small to me for a large truck.
Maybe they were tuned down but i don't think so.
We have installed a D'tronic and are very happy with the results.
Good luck. Lyndon
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Reply By: Rock Ape - Monday, Aug 13, 2007 at 15:30

Monday, Aug 13, 2007 at 15:30
Trust me they both break, just in different places.

The Ape
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Reply By: Member - Matt M (ACT) - Monday, Aug 13, 2007 at 15:49

Monday, Aug 13, 2007 at 15:49
Alex,

Always nice to get a new (newer) car, but why sell the 80? Spend a few of the dollars on doing it up the way you want and you have a vehicle that will do all you want for some time to come.

Just a thought.

Matt.
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Follow Up By: Member - Alex K (NSW) - Monday, Aug 13, 2007 at 17:26

Monday, Aug 13, 2007 at 17:26
Hey Matt,
Yeah I know what you're saying. Three main reason for thinking about the upgrade... might have helped if I explained in my first post... oops.
1. Misses can't drive manual. (now I've opened an even bigger can of poop, I'm going to cop it I know)
2. It drinks 20L/100km and doesn't get much better on the Hwy.
3. Want to head into more remote areas... both 1. and 2. play a big part in my hesitation.
Alex
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Follow Up By: Member - Roachie (SA) - Monday, Aug 13, 2007 at 19:48

Monday, Aug 13, 2007 at 19:48
Okay Alex, now you've explained it a bit better........

Keep the 80, but get a nice Chev 6.5 V8 Diesel plus a slush box (T700) bolted to it. Cheaper to run, missus can drive it, MUCH more torque.

Probably cost you about the same as "upgrading" (if you could call it that) to a new/er Patrol or 100 series......maybe $25K.

Give it some serious thought.
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Reply By: flappa - Monday, Aug 13, 2007 at 16:00

Monday, Aug 13, 2007 at 16:00
Keep what you have.
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Reply By: vuduguru - Monday, Aug 13, 2007 at 17:03

Monday, Aug 13, 2007 at 17:03
3.0 L Nissan = Time Bomb. Mates just went. Series 2 $175k No 4 cylinder Kablooie! 'nuff said.
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Reply By: Paul(ACT) - Monday, Aug 13, 2007 at 17:22

Monday, Aug 13, 2007 at 17:22
Alex K,

Look, if I were you, in Detail, id go the Lada Niva.
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Follow Up By: selasticman - Tuesday, Aug 14, 2007 at 14:45

Tuesday, Aug 14, 2007 at 14:45
GO THE LADA NIVA!
I have 2, what a great piece of machinery!! LOL
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Reply By: Crackles - Monday, Aug 13, 2007 at 17:44

Monday, Aug 13, 2007 at 17:44
A few questions for you Alex. Being realistic what are your actual needs for this vehicle? You say hard offroad. Are you talking capable of climbing metre rock steps in the Blue Mountains, metre deep bogholes at Toolanghi or Madigan line desert crossings? How many passengers, towing regular, daily driver?
Cheers Craig.............
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Follow Up By: Member - Alex K (NSW) - Monday, Aug 13, 2007 at 18:52

Monday, Aug 13, 2007 at 18:52
Hey Craig,

Good questions. I know when I posted that everyone has a different defination of 'easy', 'medium' and 'hard' and it really depends on set up and experience. My LC80 currently has 2" lift and no lokka's therefore an example of hard for me is when I need several attempts for correct wheel placement and a navigator outside the vehicle before I can make a climb. Also the occasional use or hand winch but not making a habit of it. Denting of side steps is common.

This usually would be for about 2ft steps max not 1m. Wouldn't like to be in a metre of mud (wouldn't be able to open the door) when I'm stuck). Usual passenger count is 2 but need to keep the back seats because occasionally take couple of friends on weekend trips. Don't tow anything and don't really plan to in near future. Yep, it's my daily driver in the CBD so it can't be too silly. Wouldn't go more than 2-3" lift.

Alex

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Follow Up By: Crackles - Monday, Aug 13, 2007 at 20:53

Monday, Aug 13, 2007 at 20:53
From your answers Alex both vehicles will be capable of being fitted out to do what you need. Although in the hard extreme driving the IFS may limit the Cruiser slightly, it doesn't sound like you get into that much trouble anyway.
The Cruiser will be far superior on the road for daily driving, it handles better, is quieter & has a quality feel about it. The TD will have similar power to what you have now but with excellent fuel consumption increasing the range on long desert trips. A couple of modifications to improve offroad ability & reliability would be a front diff drop kit along with suspention upgrade & an ARB locker in the front to reinforce the known weak diff. The space in the Toyota is far superior in fact the Patrol only has similar room inside to the current 120 Prado. This has a down side which is it does get a few more dints & scratches being the widest vehicle on the track.
The Patrol of course has the infamous 3 litre motor which despite upgrades still has reports of failures as the KM's get stacked on. It has reasonable power but has to be revved to get anything out of it. When loaded or pushed hard the consumption does tend to go up a fair bit. They do resond well when a Unichip is fitted. (Better top & bottom power, Better consumption) Low range should be relabelled medium range as starting on very steep hills can be difficult a common upgrade being crawler gears.
Which to buy?...........If money no object the cruiser is the better all round choice. If offroad ability & strength is a priority the Nissan edges ahead.
Cheers Craig..........
HZJ105 RV.
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Follow Up By: Member - Alex K (NSW) - Tuesday, Aug 14, 2007 at 09:11

Tuesday, Aug 14, 2007 at 09:11
Thanks Craig,
Can I ask you, what is a 'front diff drop kit'?

Also you say 'an ARB locker in the front to reinforce the known weak diff'. I was under the impression (probably falsely so) that a lokka in the front weak diff would do more harm then good. As it would place more force and strain on the weak components. Are you saying that the lokka replaces the weak parts of the diff and therefore you end up with a stronger, more reliable diff with locking capability?

Thanks,
Alex
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Follow Up By: Crackles - Tuesday, Aug 14, 2007 at 23:41

Tuesday, Aug 14, 2007 at 23:41
The front diff drop kit basically spaces the diff from the chassis to lessen the angle of the drive shafts & is done in conjunction with winding the torsion bars up or fitting replacement ones depending on the lift required & weight being carried. The IFS Cruisers you may notice all drive around with the front end drooping compared to a solid axle.
The cause of the common diff failure is a bit contensious but many believe it is the flex of the diff centre that allows the teeth to separate causing them to shear. The ARB diff centre is far stiffer & when coupled with a solid machined spacer & some fine tuning many have eliminated the problem. Yes they are far more reliable even when using the locker.
ATS in Geelong are leaders in these types of modifications.

Cheers Craig..............
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Reply By: Footloose - Monday, Aug 13, 2007 at 18:46

Monday, Aug 13, 2007 at 18:46
Why not simply swap your petrol for a late model diesel 80 ?
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Follow Up By: Member - Alex K (NSW) - Monday, Aug 13, 2007 at 18:59

Monday, Aug 13, 2007 at 18:59
Hey Footloose,

Is an option but would like a turbo model simply to keep my frustration levels lower when city driving. Am I reading the vibe that I'd me better off looking for a newer, lower kms TD LC80 then the LC100 IFS?

... I guess one advantage, at least I'll know my home made _Affordable_Storage_Drawers.aspx will bolt straight in the back.

I looked at the LC105 but you lose so much of the interior refinement and luxuries, full time 4WD, horizontal tailgate, non-split steel rims, etc.


Alex


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Follow Up By: Footloose - Monday, Aug 13, 2007 at 19:22

Monday, Aug 13, 2007 at 19:22
Alex, the diesel 80 is a very capable bush vehicle and Ok in the city if turbo'd. There have been dramas with the IFS on the 100 series, some people swear at it and others by it. Great on road or tracks, not so great offroad. Front diffs are a weakness in the 100, but only if you reverse snatch etc I'm told. Both the diesel 80 and 100 get around the same fuel consumption. Both need a decent locker if you're into swamp driving.
Even a standard 80 series diesel will eat most offroad adventures if properly maintained. Thats a proven fact, not just my opinion.Mine has 230K on it and I can't see much on the horizon to replace it with.
The only problem is finding an 80 series that fits the bill. Good luck :))
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Follow Up By: Member - Alex K (NSW) - Monday, Aug 13, 2007 at 19:37

Monday, Aug 13, 2007 at 19:37
Thanks Footloose,
What fuel consumption do you get from your diesel? Is it turbo'ed?

... do you have any comments on front or rear lokka's as per my original blurb? Just interested, that's all and no one's commented.
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Follow Up By: Footloose - Monday, Aug 13, 2007 at 19:44

Monday, Aug 13, 2007 at 19:44
Alex, on a recent Madigan/Hay river trip, one turbo'd L/C got 14l/100k, as did a standard 100 series.
My 80 is basic, no huge loads, roofracks, snorkels etc etc so I can get 10-12km/100k on the road on a trip. Worse around town, maybe 14k/100.
I'll stick my jead out and say that I've never needed lockers, they would only get me deeper into the you know what. But the kind of touring I do means thinking do I really need to go there; is my vehicle up to it? If I went rock hopping or towing it would be a different matter. They can of course be valuable, but even the old standard worn out once LSD in the rear will cope.
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Follow Up By: Footloose - Monday, Aug 13, 2007 at 19:47

Monday, Aug 13, 2007 at 19:47
"I'll stick my jead out "
Oh no I won't ! I'll stick my HEAD out :))
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Follow Up By: Member - Matt M (ACT) - Monday, Aug 13, 2007 at 21:01

Monday, Aug 13, 2007 at 21:01
Footloose,

Pull ya jead in will ya.

Matt.
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Follow Up By: Footloose - Monday, Aug 13, 2007 at 21:05

Monday, Aug 13, 2007 at 21:05
Matt, I'd better do just that. A bloke can still get arrested walking around with his jead out!
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Reply By: Brooka27 - Monday, Aug 13, 2007 at 21:09

Monday, Aug 13, 2007 at 21:09
I had the naturally aspirated diesel 80 series GXL 95 model clocked up 300000 KLm and is still going strong around town. I sold it off last year and upgraded to the 100 series t/d for some more grunt.

IMO it would have been cheaper and easier to stick with the 80, slap in a new imported donk with turbo.
The 100 goes okay off road but you have to consider checking your CV joint boots and issues with water ingress into these areas.
Especially after major water crossings etc.
I have clocked up 40 000 KLM so far and on road superb, off road not bad.
I have not attempted major recoveries with the big girl yet so cant comment on the front diff strength.
Slow building up confidence with the new rig.

All the best Brooka.
AnswerID: 257133

Reply By: Outbacktourer - Monday, Aug 13, 2007 at 21:37

Monday, Aug 13, 2007 at 21:37
Alex, I've got one of each, a 2002 3.0Di GU ST Auto and a 2006 Sahara TD 4.2. I'd agree with most of the above. The 3.0Di really responds with a DTronic and feels about the same power as the Tojo. The Auto in the Tojo is a ripper and much better than the Nissan if you are towing. Nothing really wrong with the Nissan one, only it's got one less cog and you miss it in back to back driving. Over a long distance touring I actually find the Nissan better, you sit further down in it and the seats are better over a long period. The Nissan engine is very car like and responsive to drive, wheas the Tojo is more truck like to stir along. The Nissan consumes about 1-2L more per 100 than the Tojo and will deteriorate more as a load is applied, having said that we are still talking 11-13L at 110, 14-15 with a rack or something on the back. Quality of interior material is better in the Tojo but underneath I prefer what the Nissan has, it's tough.
FWIW I've had the GU turned into streched dual cab and will keep it for the duration having invested in a few usual mods for touring. I've never had the engine issues but have fitted a boost and EGT gauge to keep an eye on things. The Sahara I use mainly for towing a racecar and boat on the highway.

In your case, either would do of course but I'd go the GU, put some fo the change into mods and fit some gauges.

OT

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Reply By: Member - Barnesy (SA) - Tuesday, Aug 14, 2007 at 01:52

Tuesday, Aug 14, 2007 at 01:52
3.0l Nissan, no.
4.2l Nissan, yes.
Cruiser with IFS better on road, but the Patrol can still drive on road. Patrol better off road but the IFS Cruiser is limited.

So really the Patrol can do everything the Cruiser can (some things maybe not as well) but can do more off road.

Personally I couldn't picture myself driving on a remote track and not being able to get through because of IFS. Would defeat the whole purpose of owning a big fourby. I wouldn't care how "car-like" it handled city driving.

Barnesy
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Follow Up By: Member - Alex K (NSW) - Tuesday, Aug 14, 2007 at 08:09

Tuesday, Aug 14, 2007 at 08:09
Good point. My LC80 is no Farrari but if they maintained solid axels in the LC100 I wouldn't be asking the question.
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Follow Up By: Member - Alex K (NSW) - Tuesday, Aug 14, 2007 at 08:31

Tuesday, Aug 14, 2007 at 08:31
I also heard the 4.2L Nissan was a bit of a dinosour, high fuel consumption and therefore way it was discontinued. I also thought the 4.2TD didn't offer really any more power or torque than the 3.0TD. Comments?
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Follow Up By: Member - Alex K (NSW) - Tuesday, Aug 14, 2007 at 08:31

Tuesday, Aug 14, 2007 at 08:31
I also heard the 4.2L Nissan was a bit of a dinosaur, high fuel consumption and therefore way it was discontinued. I also thought the 4.2TD didn't offer really any more power or torque than the 3.0TD. Comments?
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Follow Up By: Outbacktourer - Tuesday, Aug 14, 2007 at 09:22

Tuesday, Aug 14, 2007 at 09:22
4.2 Nissan does not come in Auto
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Reply By: Dave Thomson - Tuesday, Aug 14, 2007 at 14:30

Tuesday, Aug 14, 2007 at 14:30
Alex if consumption and comfort reliability etc are an isuue have you thought about the Prado ? thats where I ended up and never looked back I get almost 10 K's a Lt and towing a 17 foot Jayco {1.5 tonne} 100 K's per 14 Lt's,
regards,
Dave
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Follow Up By: Member - Alex K (NSW) - Tuesday, Aug 14, 2007 at 17:19

Tuesday, Aug 14, 2007 at 17:19
Yeah Dave, I have considered it however would be worried about its offroad ability. I'm worried that the LC100 doesn't have what it need, I don't think the Prado is any better.
Alex
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Follow Up By: Crackles - Tuesday, Aug 14, 2007 at 23:56

Tuesday, Aug 14, 2007 at 23:56
Yes Dave the Prado is an excellent option. Surprisingly the 120 is almost as big as the Patrol, has a very similar running gear to the 80 series & the front end is coil suspension not torsion bars which is superior off road. With a few mods they can go almost anywhere the others go & have the bonus of 180 litre tanks & a higher payload than a 100 series.
Check out the 120 in a recent Overlander mag for an example of what can be done. Have travelled with Joe accross the Madigan & Vic High Country & not much stops him.
Cheers Craig..........
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