Waeco owners wiring set up options.

Ingtar , before you say that people use the wrong terminology ,learn to read , what was said was "63amps per 24hrs" , now how you get 720 ah or any other figure out of that is beyond comprehension , 63 divided by 24 =2.625 amps per hr , and what 12 v fridge draws 30amps ??

Dude I can read, and what you say is still wrong. Amps is a measure of instantaneous current flow, and not a measure of power over time. So more correctly it is 63 amp/hours per day, and if your fridge is regulated it will not be drawing a consistent 2.625 amps but more likely peaking higher and then turning off. This is why when sizing wire you need to look at the maximum current rating and not the average, yet when you are sizing batteries for this you look at the average.

How I got 720Ah was quite clearly 30*24 and I did not use your 63 amps at all, I took the 30 amps figure quoted in another reply. It was more of a general comment on how the measurements work. This is why I did not directly follow up to your comment, but generally posted a reply in the thread.

I wasn't talking about any particular fridge drawing but was using the 30 amps as I took from another post further above.

We used a data loger to obtain a power requirement for a 24 hour period.

The maximun we have recordered is 4.80 amps with our CF 60 with a compressor run time of 1.7 hours at start up and the a average run time of 11 to 15 minutes per hour over a 24 hour period on a average temp day.

This fridge only gets open about 3 times a day because we have a CF 40 in the trailer with all our more needed food and drink stuff.

Most of the time the fridge is started when warm on 240 volts or because we are starting to travel and the vehicle is recharging the battery dueing this peak demand phase.

So an average we use about 30 amp hours over a 24 hour period.

Regards Richard

Now now now Axel, you did not know I had another fridge in the camper traile before today did you.

This is the post your talking about:-



"If Im wrong Im wrong and I supose this guy is to !

http://www.motorhomesaustralia.net/solar.html

Most panels are only 80% efficent and are rated at 17 to 18 volts with a surface temp of about 25 Deg.

To get a 25 Deg. surface temp the ambiant temp would have to be about 9 Deg. for every Deg.over the 25Deg. suface temp you lose about .7% efficency so on a 20 Deg. day you may have a surface temp of 45Deg. and 90Deg. on a 35 to 40 Deg. day

So lets look at a average temp for Australia of 22 Deg and a solar panel surface temp of say 51 Deg.

So with a 60 watt panel running at 80% efficency you get 48 watts and take into account the loose with surface temp of 51 Deg.you will loose another 18% efficency bringing the total down to 39 watts.

So when regulated to charge a battery you may get 2.83 amps at 13.8 volts.

the sum-:

60 watt panel running 80% efficency = 48 watts
surface temp lose another 18% = 39 watts
Divide 13.8 volts into 39 watts = 2.83 amps per hour.

There may be other losses aswell that Ihave not listed.

So please tell me Im wrong.

The reason we don't have solar on our 4wd is there are better cheaper ways of charging batterys and we have worked out our loadings to get about 5 days out of the vehicle and with the camper trailer about another 8 days.

Regards Richard"



If we only use the one fridge yes we will get about 13 day in total, you don't have to be to smart too under stand that with 2 fridges using about the same power draw as each other instead of getting 13 days it will be 6 .5days in total.

That is why I stated we get 5 days out of the one in the Hilux (smaller battries) and 8 days out of the one in the camper trailer (larger battries) and with one fridge between the Hilux and camper trailer it is about 13 day of use.

Remember that post said nothing about a second fridge but it also didn't say anything about a fridge at all.

We were talking about storage capacity of batteries versus solar.

Olcoolone (SA) Hi
I think your talking to the man that run Collyn Rivers off.. so hold you're tongue LOL

and Mainey (WA) was just as bad until the great battle of 2006 with Member number one (Nudie) now those where the days , posts of over 1000 hits bad mouthing all the way ' men talking to men the way men should talk.....

arr those where the days ;-)

Enjoy Richard

I am waiting for the mention of an Engel LOL

Kev

Hey Gramps , it only stirs the passions because of all the b/s from salesmen that users then take as gospel , lol.

Damn funny stuff alright Gramps, it's nice to be over it isn't it.

G'day Ray. Fridges at 50 paces LOL

Nice to hear from you. Hope all is well at your end.

yep all good here Al, I'm a bit quiet lately but I'm still here and kicking, I'm over fridge/power debates though :)

The main reason we use 6 B&S over 6mm auto cable is the price differance.

We charge 6mm auto cable out at about $3.70 + gst a meter and compared with $5.30 + gst per meter for 6 B&S.

Most installs take about 5 to 6.5 meter, going from 6mm auto cable to 6 B&S adds about $10.00 to the install.

6 B&S also has a thicker insullation wall, the cable in general is alot stronger, you can use better battery lugs as the 6mm auto cable lugs are not a thick around the crimp or mounting flange areas and if being run under the vehicle is not as prone to heat build up making the cable less efficent.

6 B&S is more of an accepted size in the industrie then 8 B&S is.

6 B&S is still plyable and can accept a tighter radius when installing.

We recondmend a cable that is an over kill as most people will in the future want to start running extra gear like 12v 100 Hella style flood lights, a HF radio, another fridge or to charge up there caravan / camper trailer battery etc.

It is easier to run it once then have to do it again and charge then for it.

Alot of people say they are only going to run one thing of it and then in a couple of months time they find another thing to run.

We are even starting to run 3 B&S cable in alot of vehicles now due to the ectra loads again adding about $30.00 to $40.00 extra than if we used 6mm auto cable.

Regards Richard

6mm twin from my auto eleccie is $2.60 incl GST. 6B&S only comes in single not twin.
with the manure and untruths you sprout make sure dont go near your shop
Read some manure here over the years and Olcoolone (SA) takes the crown of c**p.
you have no idea about much and even less electrical or fridge knowhow and know nothing about batteries

SARocks haven't see you for ages, hows the Hilux,hey heard a rumour the dealership your at is expanding or looking at taking on another brand or something......can't stop big business can we.

See you soon

Hi Olcoolone, the average install for an additional power socket in the rear to power a fridge requires about 5 of cable both Positive and negative, correct me here but your posts seems to suggest you only run the positive.

Furthermore, if there is only going to be a fridge and even a few lights as well, again, there is nothing wrong with running thicker cable but there is no operating advantage for the extra installation cost.

Again, if the use of 8B&S means that Yellow crimp terminals can be used and contrary to what you are saying, these terminals can easily and safely handle 40+ amps without causing any problems so the over all installation cost is going to be much low but still achieving exactly the same goal.

If someone was planning to use this installation for charging a battery or the likes then you not only need the thicker cable but a different approach to parts and installation.

Hello driversafe, in most installations we only run the positive cable from the front to the rear vehice, we use 2 earth points at the front of the vehicle from the auxillary batter.

The first earth point is to the starter battery earth point not at the battery but at the body or chassie facory earth point.

The second earth point is again either at the chassie or body earth point.

We always use 2 differant earth point locations

We only run one wire (positive) to the rear of the vehicle via a fuse at the battery to a fuseblock that can have other gear run of it at a later date.

We pick up the earth feed at the rear of the vehicle via the chassie and body again at 2 points.

We always do a earth to voltage check when installing.

6 B&S is about 13.5mm2 cable and 8B&S is about 8mm2 and 6mm auto cable is about 4.5mm2 so yes a thicker cable is better and thsi is why we use 6B&S over 8B&S or 6mm auto wire.

Terminals for 6B&S are still a crimp type, just a bigger crimper and the 6B&S terminals are a heavier construction over the yellow ones and we can use a radial crimper with 2 crimps instead of a crush type rimper with a single crimp.

Yellow crimp terminals have a material thickness of about 1.1mm and the ones we use have a material thickness of about 2.8mm at the mounting flange and about 1. 6 at the crimping area.

Yellow terminals will handle 40 amps but it is the longativity and overall strenght that let them down.

The cost of yellow terminals THAT WE RETAIL are about 25 cents and a crimp terminal is about $1.60

We have to warrant our workmanship and parts for 12 months so by getting the customer to pay a little extra in materials

For example if we charged a dual battery install out at $400 using 6mm auto cable and cheaper terminals it might only be $430 using 6B&S cable with good terminals.

For $30 more you are getting an install far better then the cheaper one.

You can still use this set up to charge battries with very few mods but we would recondmend atleast 3B&S cable.

Using the method of installation we have never seen a problem with it.

You diagram is very very good but I would alter the joint between the 8B&S and 6mm auto cable from a screw connector to a solder or crimp joint.

The screw terminals are fantastic for larger strand house hold wiring but with thin strand automotive wiring it may brake the strands.

Regards Richard

If mayese follows you instructions he wont go wrong.

Hi Olcoolone, I’ve been using Yellow crimp terminals for over 30 years and find people have more trouble with crimping lug type terminals than with insulated crimp terminals further more, in industrial application based on the currents being covered here, insulated crimp terminals are pretty well mandatory, so there quite obviously can’t be too much wrong with them.

Anyway it’s down to nothing more than personal preference, not which type of terminal is better than the other.

One point I do find very strange, very few professional installations use the chassis or body as the earth return because there is absolutely no way to be able to determine whether this form of earth return can actually carry a load.

Just using a test meter will not indicate if there is any low resistance points and the only time the customer finds out that the earth return doesn’t work is once their out on the open road and a continuos load is being needed to charge a battery or run a fridge and they don’t work and the longer they run this type of set up, the hotter the resistive point gets, the greater the voltage drop becomes and the worse the power supply to the back becomes.

Any installer intent on making 100% sure they have a good earth return will always run both a positive cable and a negative cable for current loads greater than that needed for a blinker bulb.

Cheers.

I agree with you it is personal preferance, nothing wrong with yellow terminals we just use a differant stronger one and we always do double crimps with a radial crimper.

With the meaning if a double crimp we crimp the terminal about 7mm from the end were the battery cable goes into it, we leave a gap of about 7mm going towards the front of the terminal and then we crimp it again so the terminal is crimped twice to the cable.

Most bad crimps appear because the person criming it either uses the wrong size crimp terminal to suit the wire , they use a solder only type terminal and try to crimp it or they set there crimper on the wrong jaw size for the terminal or use the wrong crimper.

One of the 4x4 mags had Roothy installing a dual battery systen in his green 40 series Landcruiser "Milo", he used a pair of normal pliers to crimp the terminals and said you can even us a chisle or a vice to get the same results.

When earthing to the chassie and the body it has a tendency to over come bad earth points. a chassie is ideal because it is made of a thick material and will never show a earth problem if used correctly. You should never earth just to the body only.

The ideal way would be to run another earth wire down the back and tag it to the chassie and body at set distances.

All we are really doing is substatuting the earh wire to a long piece of flat metal (the chassie)

By using two earth points at the front and two at the rear (body and chassie) it also reduces the chance of one bad crimp stopping everthing and can also help other issue in vehices.

We also use Duralac to seal all connection, Duralac is used alot in the marine industrie.

This is why on vehicles they have set earth points, when we do work for Scania Australia they stipulate we have to use the factory earth point that they supply (pain in the a%^), but MAN, Volvo, Iveco, Mercedes and many others don't stipulate it, and we have never had an issue.(we deal close with there engineers)

With the above vehicles we have to issue a earth to voltage test reports, most of them go interstate and if we have a problem over there they take the vehicle to someone local for repairs, if it is something we have done we get charged for it, our contract states we have to warrant workmanship for 2 years.

It is personal choice.

Most people who do electrical installation work will run twin core wire as it takes less time to do then to pick good strong earth points.

We see auto elec. places use 6mm autowire for dual battery setups and then wonder why it doesn't work, but all the gear only drawing 10 amps.

They forget that when the auxillary battery is flat or low, when the solinoid cuts in they may have a in rush current of 200 to 300amps through it.

This is another thing for another day, we see good dual battery isolatoers desroy them selves because people run there auxillary battries to low and when the isolator engages the start battery in the curcuit it has a in rush current that exceeds the isolator even that it's a 100 amp type.

We do the earth to voltage check with a load because it doesn't just show earthing issues but also voltage supply ones aswell.


Regards Richard

If you have an alternator with a maximum possible output of 130 amps how can you get an inrush of 200 to 300 hundred amps for more than a few milliseconds, which is irrelevant and please don’t say off the cranking battery because the volts are not high enough till the motor is running to allow the flat battery to have a sufficiently large enough difference between the battery’s SoC and the charge voltage to get an inrush anywhere like that.

If your trying to make out that there would be a long period of inrush current of that magnitude then I think you would have a problem with your suggestion of fitting a 50 amp fuse because a 50 amp fuse is designed to tolerate that sort of current for only a few milliseconds.

BTW, fuses are a No No in high current circuits like dual battery systems. Circuit breakers act much quick and are much safer.

Furthermore, even if there was an inrush current of that magnitude why wouldn’t the solenoid take it, something like a driving light globe can pull start up battery currents of up to 100 amps every time you turn them on not just once in a while like a dual battery system and it’s common for two globes to be connected to a single 40 amp headlight relay, which is a lot smaller than you average solenoid, and they tolerate thousands of such start up current operations.

Another point, this thread is about wiring up a 4x4, a 100 series to be exact, not about wiring up trucks. There is a world of difference and the newer the 4x4 the greater the chances are of have a poor earth return through the chassis because of the way all new vehicles are made.

Cheers.

The in rush current if from the starting battery when the vehicle is started, not from the alternator.

Most people keep running there aux battries down to low causing a in rush when the starter and aux battery equlisers.

Isolators / solinoids will handle this for a while but to much and the curciut in then will stop working.

If you speak to any of the major isolator manufactures and ask then about in rush current they will explain it to you and that it can damage there gear over a period of time. Redarc are a good one to contact.

From the starter battery to the aux battery we do not fit a fuse /breaker and this is from the advice of the manufactures, even there fitting instructions don't have it mentioned....we asked about it years ago with them.

It is no differant to vehicles fitted with dual batterys as standard or in a 24 volt system....they don,t have protection between then.

The linking wire from the start battery to the iolator to the aux battery is so short, the chances of a cable rubbing through is remote and it should be sheathed for extra protection.

The 50 amp fuse is used from the output of the aux battery to the rear of the vehicle (We try to fit it within 150mm of the battery. This is to stop full aux battery current going down the cable if shorted out.

Fuses will blow quicker then curcuit breaker in nearly all cases.

A 20 amp fuse may have a rating of 40 amps for 5 to 10 second whereby a 25 amp curcuit breaker may have a trip time of 50 seconds at 40 amps.

It is not uncommon to see the curcuit breaker let through anything upto 150% increase for 5 to 10 seconds, a fuse will not tolarate much more then a 20 to30% increase for that period.

The issue is curciut breakers are still unreliable and are prone to failer mostly due to water.

Customer can check fuses and replace if needed easier then a curcuit breaker. Hopefully they wont have to.

Alot of new vehicles still use fuses for there high power areas and it is still common practice to use them,all cars use fuses and most heavy vehicles will use fuses for there high power areas (maxi fuses) and then a mixture of fuses and curcit breakers.

It was great years ago we only had stock glass, blade, ceramic and some fuse links now we have about 14 differant fuse styles in a range of differant amp ratings.

A chassie is still a piece of flat metal and aslong as it is earthed correctly it's no differant than a cable.

Regards Richard

Will agree as the fuse is only there to protect the cable running to rear in this case but you still need a circuit breaker not a fuse.

I don’t know where you get your info from but circuit breakers most certainly work quicker and are safer than fuses and if you check wiring regulations for AC and current is the same whether it be AC or DC, and AC fuses and circuit breakers have a very similar action to automotive fuses and circuit breakers, circuit breaker can safely handle higher loads than can fuses of the same current rating and the circuit breaker will operate quicker and safer than a fuse in any high current application.

Furthermore BOTH automotive fuses and automotive circuit breakers, which is what we are talking about, are designed to handle a current rating of about 150% of their current rating ( to be exact 145% for an automotive fuse ) for one hour before tripping so I don’t know where you get that a fuse will only let through 20 to 30% more current for a few seconds before blowing.

Plus, automotive fuses, including maxi fuses, are set to one specific rating ( 145% for one hour ) while, just like your SPECIAL type fuses, circuit breakers can readily be selected for a whole range of rating for as little as 10% over current for 10 minutes and 15% absolute maximum over current up to having similar current characteristics as an automotive fuse except that automotive circuit breakers of the same current rating of a given fuse will still go open circuit quicker that fuses.

Automotive fuses are designed to designed to handle up two to three hundred amps ( for something like a 50 amp fuse ) for a few milliseconds to be able to handle motor start up currents.

The reason auto makers use fuses for most applications is based on purely cost.

Again, the newer the 4x4, the greater the chances are that you will not get a good earth return because of the way the vehicles are now made. New painting procedures, sound and vibration dampening and so on.

While it may be cheaper to try and use the chassis as the earth return, it’s far safer to run both the positive and negative cables and by doing it this way you have a circuit of know characteristics and not just one you think you know.

Cheers

AC and DC curcuit breaker are two differant thing, isn't harder to break DC current then AC.

With automotive you have a very limited range not in current but in function.

It's because 12 and 24 volts can not kill you easly and 240 volts will,maybe if it was 48 volts DC then thats a differant issue, that will kill you.....I think it around 100 volts AC that will kill you.

With AC curcuit breaker you have more of a chance of being able to specifie there function like delay curves etc.

Most automotive breakers will handle 135% for 30 minutes and 200% for 1 minute.

The other issue we have with curcuit breakers mounted under bonnets are the temp ratings,most curcuit braekers ae rated at there set current at 25 Deg.C and under a bonnet you will see 85 Deg.C plus this is a big problem for the bi metal type.

I take it you have a back ground in industrial or commercial elec.

Can you start making the questions easier please, this is bringing back trade school days.

Regards Richard

Mate I wouldn’t talk about what you did or more to the point, didn’t learn in school, trade or otherwise.

For a starter AC is most definitely easier to break than DC because there is very little effect from arcing to take into account with AC circuit breakers as that with DC and you should have leant that in trade school.

As far as the delay curve of YOUR SPECIFIC breaker goes, this is just what that particular manufacture made YOUR circuit breakers work at.

There are far more choices of delay rate and curve rate available in DC than there is in AC. AC has only there rates readily available, marked as B, C and D. There’s no A ( don’t know why ) while there are as many different rates for DC as there are different numbers of manufactures, because the is no mandatory standard here in Australia relating to automotive safety devices, unlike AC where standards are applied.

BTW C rated AC circuit breakers are the closet to standard automotive type circuit breakers.

I’m not sure if your trying to be clever or just don’t really know but just about everything you buy for use under the bonnet is tested at 25 Degrees C and will usually have a sliding graph that indicates what happens at higher temperatures. Batteries are a perfect example, with ALL batteries rated with their operating characteristics set at 25C but your saying that if the info is give based on test data set at 25C we shouldn’t use it under the bonnet. Well all the vehicle makers have got it wrong then.

Plus no circuit breaker, or fuse for that matter, goes open circuit at 85C, it takes temperatures of hundreds and hundreds of degrees to make them go open circuit and up to thousands of degrees to trip them instantly.

Cheers.

I think we are nit pcking now and just going around it circles.

Regards Richaed

Or Drivesafe,
At least he provided a simple diagram from which to work from.

Kev

Hey Pete and Lez, you havn't seen our wandering whistle have you.......it hasn't used it's bank account for a while and I just hope it is still in Australia.

Regards Richard

Howdy Richard and Lyn, Havn't seen your whistle for quite some time now, Have you reported it missing to the Police? They may decide to run it on Crimestoppers. Hahahahaha

No haven't heard from it for a couple of weeks.....starting to get concerned about it's wellfare thou.

It went and saw it cousins a couple of weeks ago......but we don't know who they are...thats what happens when you adopt some thing from the tip I surpose.

We just hope it's well and still is in Australia, we notified customs at the airport, they looked at us funny and said something about calling the police, ( we think the nice people at custom wanted to get the police involved to see if they can help too) we should of waited for them when we got escourted out of the terminal and asked them but I think it must of been close to the customs guys coffee break because as soon as they got us out side they left us ,I think one of the customs guy wanted to help us more.....the other 11 of then went to there coffee break and he stood about 50m away and just watch us.....we think he was caught between help us and the call of the coffee machine.

Tried alot of freight companys to see if we could have a look in there containers.....they were nice peoplel, they told us that they would get the Police involved aswell but we had to decline there offer as we had alot of other places to look and could not wait all day for them to arrive.

Again the guys at the freight companys all escourted us out of there place to the road......I think they didn't want to see us get hurt or lost.....what great honest caring people.

Some of them even introduced us to the people at there security points and we meet some of the security staff as well, a few of them took photos of use to remind them of the special occasion when they meet us.

They said they would send the photo's to there mates at other freight company so when we got there they would know who we are......again nothing but nice peope.

Regards Richard