Hot Diesel not starting.
Submitted: Thursday, Sep 06, 2007 at 21:04
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Vojta
Howdy All,
My problem is a bit perplexing (at least to me).
I have a '91 Patrol with a TD42 Diesel engine (no turbo). When I go to start it in the morning then its a bit reluctant to start but it starts ok. However after a bit of driving and bringing the car up to normal operating temp if I switch it off then the motor doesn't want to start at all. It behaves exactly like a battery with only 10% charge.
The battery is about 2 years old and on the decline but it can still start when its cold.
I can kickstart it both hot or cold without any problem.
On the way home tonight I made the mistake of switching it off when I checked the PO Box, so had a nice time reading the paper waiting for the NRMA to show up. We had no luck starting even after he connected the battery to his power source.
Only once he placed the cable directly onto the starter motor did it spring to life.
This now makes me suspect the starter motor and associated solenoids.
I'd like to know if others have had similar problems and what the solution was or suggestions on what else I can spend looking at during my deserved APEC public holiday tomorrow.
Thanks in advance,
Vojta.
Reply By: Member - Ed. C. (QLD) - Thursday, Sep 06, 2007 at 21:11
Thursday, Sep 06, 2007 at 21:11
How long since you cleaned your battery terminals??
(also where the earth cable connects to body/engine?)
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AnswerID:
260773
Follow Up By: Vojta - Thursday, Sep 06, 2007 at 21:20
Thursday, Sep 06, 2007 at 21:20
Hi Ed,
The earth is on the engine block. Both the +ve & -ve cables are on the thicker side. The battery is a 600cca. I looked at the terminals a couple of days ago when the problem first started to appear.
The main puzzling part is why it starts when its cold but not when its hot.
Vojta.
FollowupID:
522200
Follow Up By: Member - Ed. C. (QLD) - Thursday, Sep 06, 2007 at 21:49
Thursday, Sep 06, 2007 at 21:49
G'day Vojta,
I'm assuming that the engine is hard to turn over, as opposed to simply refusing to start when turned over?
The compression would be higher on a hot engine, which would probably explain that issue...
If the terminals (and earth) are OK, and the charging system is working as it should, then I'd say it's time to check the battery..
Have you checked the electrolyte Specific Gravity with a hydrometer?
Do you have access to a known good battery which you could try? that would at least confirm or eliminate that as the problem...
The fact that she "sprung to life" when the NRMA bloke connected his power source direct to starter, suggests to me either a battery or bad connection problem..
I'm no expert on these matters, OK?.. Just tossing a few ideas around;-))
Hope ya can get it sorted...
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Follow Up By: Vojta - Thursday, Sep 06, 2007 at 22:02
Thursday, Sep 06, 2007 at 22:02
Hi Ed,
Thanks for all the suggestions. The terminals i'd say are in acceptable condition but i'll give all of them the once over tommorrow to eliminate them from the list. I don't have a access to a good battery but I am assuming when the NRMA hooked up to the battery then this should have provided sufficient power.
Haven't checked the battery with a hydrometer but will do so now before and after letting charge over night.
Also as best I can tell there are no power leaks anywhere in the system and the alternator is giving a touch under 14V when the lights are switched on.
I just want to eliminate as many of the possibke 'simple' causes before i decide to dismantle the starter motor and inspect it.
Cheers
Vojta.
FollowupID:
522206
Reply By: Member - Borgy.. (SA) - Thursday, Sep 06, 2007 at 21:55
Thursday, Sep 06, 2007 at 21:55
Hi Vojta
Just speaking from my own personal experience i would be looking at starter motor ..........Cheers.........Dave
AnswerID:
260782
Follow Up By: Member - andrew B (Kununurra) - Friday, Sep 07, 2007 at 07:24
Friday, Sep 07, 2007 at 07:24
Gday Vojta, I'm with Borgy, I had a similar problem, not helped by 2.8 nissans other hot start issues! New starter motor and all was
well!
Mine was just not cranking fast enough.
Cheers Andrew
FollowupID:
522228
Reply By: Eric Experience - Thursday, Sep 06, 2007 at 21:57
Thursday, Sep 06, 2007 at 21:57
Vojta.
The symptoms suggest a POLLING STARTER , when the bushes wear the rotor can touch the stator, when the rotor is hot it is very slightly larger in diameter and therefore is less likely to rotate, another possibility is that you have a stuck brush that is in contact when cold but not when hot. In any case you must take the starter out and look for wear in the bushes and crud on the brushes. Eric
AnswerID:
260783
Follow Up By: Member - Crazy Dog (QLD) - Thursday, Sep 06, 2007 at 22:54
Thursday, Sep 06, 2007 at 22:54
"Poling" (as in pole) is the term and it is caused when the rotating part touches the fixed part causing a jamming or rubbing situation. Usually caused by a bent rotating part or stuffed bearings or bushes..Worn brushes have no effect save NOT touching the armature ...
I have used simple terminology so rotors, armatures and the like do not become an issue...
Grrr!!!
FollowupID:
522215
Follow Up By: V8 Troopie - Thursday, Sep 06, 2007 at 23:47
Thursday, Sep 06, 2007 at 23:47
I recently had intermittand starting problems on the V8 chevvie engine, despite there being a brand new battery.
when I took the starter motor apart there was chock a block brush dust under the cover on the brushes side. The other end looked remarkably clean.
One of the brushes must have jammed too at one stage as it was worn at an angle and a fair bit shorter than the other 3 brushes.
After cleaning everything very
well (a rather messy job!) and putting it back together the motor started inside a second and has done so ever since. I must get a replacement brush before the next long trip though.
Klaus
FollowupID:
522223
Follow Up By: furph - Friday, Sep 07, 2007 at 08:11
Friday, Sep 07, 2007 at 08:11
Hey Crazy.
Not knit picking, but as you mentioned using the correct terminology its not the armature the brushes are in contact with, its the commutator.
And whilst on that item, the copper commutator body can wear diametrically to the extent the mica separators between the segments become "proud" and prevent proper brush contact/current flow.
This can be a cause of the problem exhibited.
These days only a few auto elecs will do an overhaul on such electrical items, planned obsolescence means a new replacement.
furph
FollowupID:
522235
Reply By: Gerhardp1 - Thursday, Sep 06, 2007 at 22:29
Thursday, Sep 06, 2007 at 22:29
The RACV would have checked the battery condition, and given an opinion on the starter condition.
Methinks you are trolling.
AnswerID:
260792
Follow Up By: Vojta - Thursday, Sep 06, 2007 at 23:13
Thursday, Sep 06, 2007 at 23:13
I am sorry my mistake. I forgot to mention in the original post serious replies only, no that would have stopped you from posting.
You see I was given the option of getting a regular NRMA service car or a specialist mobile battery car that would have run a thorough check of the electrics. However being late on Thursday night and since it would have taken another 1hr time in which i could have walked home I opted to be greatful the car had started and went home. If I have no luck tommorrow I most certainly will be giving NRMA another call.
I opted for the normal service car since I thought it was more then just a battery problem.
BTW does the "1" in Gerhardp1 relate to your IQ level? Somehow I think it does.
Why dont you troll off to where ever it is you came from and do, at least me, a favour and stay there.
ps: I realise the irony of satisfying your trolling cravings by posting this reply.
FollowupID:
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Follow Up By: Gerhardp1 - Friday, Sep 07, 2007 at 10:00
Friday, Sep 07, 2007 at 10:00
Haha, before you estimate the IQ of others, I suggest you learn to spell.
FollowupID:
522252
Follow Up By:- Friday, Sep 07, 2007 at 10:55
Friday, Sep 07, 2007 at 10:55
Amazingly how many people link ability to spell properly *IN ENGLISH* with IQ level. According to this logic Japanese who do not know English have IQ equal to 0. Strange logic indeed.
FollowupID:
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Follow Up By: Gerhardp1 - Friday, Sep 07, 2007 at 13:05
Friday, Sep 07, 2007 at 13:05
And determining my IQ from the 1 at the end of my login name is logical ??
Haha - you have no idea what logic is.
FollowupID:
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Follow Up By:- Friday, Sep 07, 2007 at 15:08
Friday, Sep 07, 2007 at 15:08
I have not said that. What kind of twisted logic you been using to conclude that I imply this point?
FollowupID:
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Reply By: Member - Stephen F (VIC) - Thursday, Sep 06, 2007 at 22:53
Thursday, Sep 06, 2007 at 22:53
This is the first i've heard of a PH.
AnswerID:
260797
Reply By: MintabiePete (NSW) - Friday, Sep 07, 2007 at 09:28
Friday, Sep 07, 2007 at 09:28
You know 2 years is about all I get out of an Exide N70ZZ 600CCA battery these days before I start having problems , and that is using de mineralised
water , don't know what battery brand you are using , but they are certainly not as good as they used to be :)
AnswerID:
260838
Reply By:- Friday, Sep 07, 2007 at 09:52
Friday, Sep 07, 2007 at 09:52
I have similar problem with 1996 LC. And in my case it is definitely not battery issue – I have two of them and they very strong. I have replaced cable from battery to starter as
well as terminal, disassemble starter and clean it thoughtfully. It helps a lot, but I still have from time to time a click without cranking. In my case I have to wait 10-15 seconds and try again - now it seldom require a third try. I recon that I have poor connection either from battery to body, from body to engine or from engine to starter. To overcame this I am planning to put dedicated negative cable directly from battery to starter.
Cheers.
AnswerID:
260840
Follow Up By: furph - Friday, Sep 07, 2007 at 11:24
Friday, Sep 07, 2007 at 11:24
Methinks that will be the copper contacts as closed by the starter motor solenoid being dirty/corroded. It doesnt help if
water has got in there also.
Typical symptoms being "click --- click --- click---- GO"
You can pull then to pieces to clean up, but you need an impact phillips head driver to undo the case screws. They are BL tight!
furph
FollowupID:
522261
Follow Up By: Member - Phil G (SA) - Friday, Sep 07, 2007 at 11:39
Friday, Sep 07, 2007 at 11:39
Furph is spot on. Very common LandCruiser problem. Replacing the contacts in the starter motor solenoid will see it fixed for another 10 years.
FollowupID:
522262
Follow Up By: Member - Phil G (SA) - Friday, Sep 07, 2007 at 11:39
Friday, Sep 07, 2007 at 11:39
Furph is spot on. Very common LandCruiser problem. Replacing the contacts in the starter motor solenoid will see it fixed for another 10 years.
FollowupID:
522263
Follow Up By:- Friday, Sep 07, 2007 at 12:06
Friday, Sep 07, 2007 at 12:06
Hmm... Interesting... I have disassemble starter fully and contacts looks OK to me - no dirt at all, just some meat been burn out. Interestingly enough this problem never occurs up until I have changed clutch (i.e. take off starter from car). Probably just coexidence, but I still have suspision about proper grounding.
Cheers.
FollowupID:
522265