How does this happen?

Mate. . . your talking to some-one who can't climb into a truck!!!!!

see if i can do it!
try this tester

That'll be it Shane. Well done!!

How ya goin Trevor?
It really was simple, I'll know now, foot is healing, back for more xrays tues 2/10 (if my marriage survives that long).
Spending far too much time on youtube, finding heaps of stuff, love to have a crack at the Rubicon trail, (long way to drive!).

Every one says this bloke is 100% at fault tipping over, now I think about it, and reading the heated debate attached to video, things don't add up, His mate (the poster) say's he has experience, he had made 15 attempts, and built up the track on the far side.
Why not go for handbrake?
so there was 14 reverse beforehand, how did it go wrong?
found an old thread similar situation, deliberate stall recovery during a training course, computer couldn't handle that situation, even with an instructor there.
I have no Idea who the blokes is, nor do I care, I but I just can't help but think that his vehicle contribiute to its downfall, and finding a similar story(even though it was a disco) on this forum makes me more suspicious.
Putting up this thread, analysing video frame by frame, trying to work out what was going on just goes to show that I've got TOO MUCH TIME ON MY HANDS ! !,
Shane

If the cruiser was actually a white Prado then I reckon it was Stephen M

Cheers Kev

I am sure Steve said he was going to Stockton this weekend

Kev

I Fully agree,
After reading your reply I went and sifted thru 8 pages of text and it was the cameraman who doing the talking NOT the driver, and also claims he made 15 attempts, 15? .
Tried different lines and actually placed a few rocks to make a bit of a step on the far side, point is, OL' mate had tried, failed, reversed down, tried again, Why did it get so wrong this time?
Shane

Drive shaft brakes can snap a rear axle very easily ! LR are well known for that to happen.

I think you may be talking about old timers such as Series 11. Or if you have seen it on a modern one it was a freak, like Toyotas wearing out front diffs.LOL
I have been in Land Rover clubs for 15 years, and gone on many many trips, and driven my Rangie in The Nissan trials
I have NEVER seen an axle broken that could be attributed to the handbrake. Many (most) Land Rover owners never seem to adjust them anyway. Come to think of it I haven't adjusted mine for 5 years.
Lots of broken diffs, lots of broken axles with lockers including mine.
It is conceivable but you would have to be a bit soft in the head to yank it on at speed.
It is pretty hard to believe that the bloke had a cascading series of failures. The odds are against it.
Regards Philip A

Hi Philip, I made the comment in case anyone reading the thread thinks that a drive shaft brake can be used like a foot brake. Drive shaft brakes are only holding brakes and should not be used to stop a vehicle. However, I would certainly try it if all else fails. Any lock-up of the drive shaft on a moving vehicle will cause 'wind-up' on the axle and you would be lucky to escape with out a broken or seriously strained axle.

Many people think that you can't stall an automatic. If you leave an automatic vehicle in forward gear as you fail a hill climb and start to move backwards the ecu may deliberately 'stall' the engine leaving you without power brakes and power steering. Trying to stop a vehicle without power brakes is extremely difficult.

After looking carefully at the video, I could see that there was no wheel lock up.
I'm NOT going into bat for this bloke, but after sifting thru 8 pages of comments, this blokes friend (who posted the video) claims he has been to the cape a number of times as well as cross the simmo and says emphatically that it was computer failure (ECU or ABS), and also, had multiple attempts ( 15 was the quote) and reversed out every other time with out drama.
Maybe blame the driver, BUT could it have been the vehicle?
Shane

Shane,

After looking at the video there is no evidence of the brake lights coming on or reverse gear being engaged.

Even when the motor stops there is vacuum stored for one or two applications of the brakes.

If the motor had stalled the vehicle would have stopped if it was in gear. If the clutch had been pushed in, as I believe it was, then the vehicle would run back down the hill as shown in the video.

I still believe it to be driver error.

Wayne

I'm not defending the driver, BUT his mate says that the motor had stalled, and with out a running motor you don't have vacuum,
I have no idea if the defender uses traction control or not, If that one did, it would of been working way overtime using all available vacuum, maybe?
The main reason I have put this up is so that others don't make the same mistake
Shane

I would suggest a high possibility that he was not in low range during the ascent causing it to stall in the first place or was in low 3rd or 4th any which way too high a gear.

Stalled it and basically got his knickers in a knot whilst looking down at the dash or the gear lever to see what was going on with the vehicle and then trying to get it into the right gear, stand on the brake, re start the thing etc etc it started to roll backwards and when he finally looked up to realise it was indeed going backwards and realising he had not achieved any of the above least of all he failed to ensure the vehicle was safe and stable before doing a reverse stall start as Wayne describes above.

In other words it was a whole range of driver error and nothing to do with the vehicle.

Brakes work without vacuum, they may require more foot pressure but in all normal circumstances they will lock up the wheels if pushed hard enough.

You're right Shane, It did stall... you can hear that on the video...

But the only way it can go back like that... is foot on the clutch.

As John said - brakes will still work without vaccuum. After all it is gravity that has stopped it going up.... a firm foot on the brake pedal would hold it.... if not the Landrover handbrake operates on the rear drive shaft....that would hold it.

The wheels were turning as it went backwards... not locked and sliding.

Yes the defender extreme does have traction control....

I agree vision like that should be shown to all inexperienced 4wheel drivers..

It may help those that thing the rubbish you see on 4WD car ads is the normal way to drive off road.

It's just a pity he tries to blame his stuff up on the vehicle.

I'm a big believer in training for anyone tackling offroad work... and maybe if this guy did some.. his roof would still be straight.

Low range, some basic training and a little more care and it simply would not have happened...

Mark

I totally agree that this is driver error.
I have a TD5 Disco 2 Manual.
The poster of the video on Youtube says in many of his numerous, aggresive replies that the driver was in low 1st. Absolute BS. The speed that Defender was travelling would have had to be at least low 3-4 or high 2.
In low 1st, it is very hard to actually stall the TD5 with revs on board, but in high range particularly, or low range 3-4 up a incline off boost, it is quite easy to stall.
This bloke absolutely, positively whacked in the clutch.

For the guy to blame computer error and no vaccuum is rot.

100% agree with spider. I have never got LR (have LC), but to my eyes it was not L1 – no way. LC (believe that LR exactly the same in this regard) will not run downhill on L1 – no way. In fact it barely moving on moderate hills and if engine stall, it will not move at all. If hill was so steep that it stall on L1, then it would be high level of stupidity to go such hill without winch. So IMHO he have chosen absolutely wrong gear for such exercise and I am absolutely sure he depressed clutch in very wrong time trying to prevent engine to stall.

DOH, thread number 10741 for those who want a read

That is an interesting Link Shane,

Yes no CDL in a Disco can be a problem. That said it is still very likely to be a lack of knowledge or experience of the driver..

All the DiscoII's that had no CDL ( 99 - 2002 roughly) do have traction control and hill decent control.Hill decent generally works really well..... until the driver touches the brake pedal....at which time it turns off.

Certainly the inability to lock the CDL means if you were to loose traction to one end... ( like lifting the front wheels on a steep hill) life gets ugly. That's why many including myself have added aftermarket CDL actuators.

When the Disco II was first released 1999.. The Landrover engineers decided it would not need a CDL as Traction control would do the job..

In 2003 they woke up and replaced it... most Discos from 1999 till early 2001 actually have the CDL in the transfer.. just no way to lock it ( unless you count climbing underneath with a 10mm spanner).. that is why there are a few aftermarket kits. There was a short period ( late 2001 -2002) where there is no lock in the transfer.... that's a bigger problem to overcome if you want to get serious off road.

That said, even before I put the kit in mine... I never found anywhere I felt in any danger of that sort of accident... despite plenty of high county off road work on some pretty steep tracks.

Mark

I agree Hairy as the exact thing happened to me and a few mates
in an old Tojo deisel ute out shooting years ago.
An old farm 4by with the standard dodgy brakes ,if you wanted to stop on a hill we would just stall it in gear. One day going up a rather steep hill in the wrong gear it stalled and rolled back in gear
and fired up in reveres (engine running backwards) very scary, the guy driving was lucky enough
to turn it back up the hill and stop it as we all bailed out the back guns and all.

I reeely dought it is possible with a defender. it isnt with a 1hz motor. Many people think the low oil pressure cutoff for the H motor is to protect the motor from low oil pressure. - It aint, its to shut the motor down from running in reverse

You would think that a 4 cycle diesel engine running backwards, the injector would be firing after TDC which I find hard to believe that engine would run (if not with a lack of power). May be an old gimmie as it is a 2 cycle engine.. but then again what would I know.. ;-)

Gday'
I really dont know that much about different motors but I do know for a fact that a 2H runs in reverse.
Takes you buy supprise when it happens too.
I just reakon if the car in the video is capable of it , its quite possibly the cause.

Cheers
Hairy

I've been warned about the older deisels having the ability to run backwards, and infact the 2 stroke GM's where designed so that they can be mated in a twin motored boat (one clockwise,other counterclockwise), albeit with mods, but I dont think so in this case as it was an UBER modern TD5 .
Shane