caravan power lead

It is NOT over rated and an electrician should not make up a lead as it is illegal !

Disagree, see my response below.

POINT.....

You will need a 15amp lead for caravan parks etc.

But at home a 15amp to 10amp adaptor is a cheaper option, then installing a new 15amp GPO.

If you plug it into a 10amp circuit in your home that hasn't got the likes of a fridge, washing machine, dryer, on the same 10amp breaker at your fuse box you'll be sweet. I wouldn't go over 20m on the length of 10amp lead, shorter the better.If you over load the circuit the 10amp breaker will go before the lead.
If you have earth leakage protection over your home GPO's you'll be safe, and so will DAD.
How many home handy men operate welders with 15amp leads into 10amp points, yet with their actual power draw being lower than their potential to draw no worries.

I rarely go to caravan parks, but unbelievably I have been to one recently that had power outlets that wouldn't accept 15 amp plugs.

The reason for the larger earth pin is to stop you plugging i what we would assume to be a load that doesn't belong on a ten amp circuit. A smaller earth will trip or blow a fuse same same.

Owen

Crazy Dog
GGrrr yeh that's all fine if one is going to be staying in one place but what about the people who move about , they might go to many places on a year,can't expect people to be installing power points at all the mates places just for a week here and a week there. a properly made 10/15amp adapter cord will do the job quite safley, damn it I have done it that way for years , and as I said I connect up to the inverter , turn fridge of first because the 800 watt won't handle it, Yes it is illegal , and so is speeding , you going to tell me you don't go faster than the limit.......

Crazy

What do you mean by "larger earth fault current should there be a problem".

I always thought the reason for the larger earth pin was to ensure 10A plugs are not used inadvertently.

JD

Ok final post regarding this subject..

If you want to file the earth pin down on a 15 amp lead then do so.

It is not my problem.

I just told you what the Electricity Act and other rules eg AS 3000 in most states says and if you choose to ignore that then like I said - your problem not mine... Don't shoot the messenger....

The reason for the large pin on a 15 amp lead is to stop the lead being used in 10 amp circuits but is designed when plugged into a 15 amp circuit to carry any possible larger fault current to earth without losing its integrety before the circuit breaker or fuse trips blows etc... Remember most 15amp domestic circuits only have one GPO attached thereto...


Grrr!!!

Ps Good luck with all your chosen methods be they correct or incorrect...

i'm with you Crazy


rockpiglet "If you have earth leakage protection over your home GPO's you'll be safe, and so will DAD."...??

in this situation a earth leakage system will not probaly protect one from death from possible fire... earth leakage does not stop overloading of a circuit which may cause a fire! ....which is what the 15a plug is jointly designed to do...stop one from plugging in a 15amp appliance to a 10 amp circuit where someone has replaced the fusewire or breaker with a greater capacity but which they believe is legal as the bloke down the road has done this and as has the neighbor at the back and nothing has ever happened to them

and incidently a earth leakage breaker only protects if you hooked up to power and YOU are Earthed....It Will Not Protect if you have electricity going through you from active to neutral only...and may KILL...same result as the fire but different method ...so lets be safe, eh?

Bloody hel Ray,

Yall avvem runnin' fer them thar hills wiv that sorta infoe mation....

But cha crekt... I thunk I spalled thet rite!!!

yep all of the above - DO NOT TAKE RISKS WITH THE STUFF YA CAN"T SEE or worse still don't understand.. That's why we have 65 year old leckies still alive today like me...The tests are invaluable for peace of mind & no it is not a rip off just something those would be who could be's think will save a dollar or two. Could be a life or two eh but!!


Grrr!!!

hey you two...what we need is to give all these persons doing doing such illegal things a brief insulation test with a 415...no 1000v meggar...once they have tasted this they may just understand what you you are trying to tell them..electricity kills and in more ways than one

One last thing it is illegal to file the earth pin down as the plug no longer meets the Australian Standards.

"Member - Olcoolone (S.A) replied:
Are you sure it is illegal to use that type of plug, and ain't the neutral and earth usually joined together at the meter box anyway.

We use mig welders that came out with 15 amp plugs that have been converted to a 10 amp plug for ease of use, we have spoken to alot of authorities regarding this and all we got told was a 10 amp plug can handle alot more current then they are rated for and aslong as the cable size and curcit breaker for current draw is correct there is not an issue.

But I would still check.

Regards Richard"

Bet your "authorities did not put this in writing!

What you have done with changing the plug tops from 15 amp to 10 amps is also illegal.

Gees all you blokes lay out good money for your vans and all the add ons and yet are too bloody tight to do the job properly when it comes to the supply of electricity to them.

I hope if anything goes wrong in your electrics in the future (fires etc.) is that all that will happen is your insurance companies will refuse to cover your work and that nobody gets killed from your handywork.

Mig welders come under differant standards then usual 240 volt appliances, and these days very few people will put stuff in writting.

We spoke to a Safework SA inspector about it and he could not answer our questions and he refered us to another mob who gave us the answer.

No differant then someone using a older style power board or double adaptors and running heaps of gear of a single GPO.....it's not good practice but people do it.

Most good heavy duty extension cords (not the white ones) use 20 amp cable anyway.

Regards Richard

Olcoolone
In the entertainment industry there are heaps of 10a - 20a adapters.
And has been for many years. makes 10a - 15a look trivial.

Power is a funny thing goes to peoples heads. Get it wrong, it usually goes through the feet.

Circuit breakers are primarily for a short circuit protection and are NOT for a current limit. A 10 anp circuit breaker can quite happily carry 20 amps for long enough to melt your cable. I have seen circuit breakers that were so hot you could burn your fingers if you touched them and they were still operating.

Can't say seen 20a load on a 10a breaker.
Fixture _Affordable_Storage_Drawers.aspx 18.5a at strike, drops to constant 8.5a. Usually load 2x fixture on 20a breaker. Don't strike/ start both fixtures at once.

When we have local sparkies hard wire us in, if we don't know the sparky we all ways meter their work, unfortunately history has shown us not to even trust the professional.

Disagree, see my response below.

Jimbo
Good one . you have summed up the situation 100% , What we are dealing with here is ordinary people with ordinary households with ordinary appliances , Not Caravan parks with up to 50 plus vans drawing on the power system of the park,
Have a good day.

Doug

Hi Jimbo

Please contact the authority providing the 240v and/or 415v supply to your property (assuming you do not generate your own power). They have conditions on supply, including the compliance with many Australian Standards, one of which is AS3000 Wiring Rules. Extension leads and use of such are well documented in AS3000.

As always it's your choice if you wish to do otherwise.

Cheers
PeteS

Use of common sense is something that most people do not use. Yes if you kept you current draw down to 10 amps, then yes. BUT... there is nothing to stop you drawing more, maximum demand calculations are made for a reason. There is the electrical safety regulations (available on the net)and also australian standards for caravan power installation and safe use. (yes I could quote numbers,) Yes many people run extension leads around. There is a maximum length and there are many people around that have received electricic shocks or electrocution. If everyone exercised common sense and had enough knowledge, then we would not need rules and legislation. In the meantime, if the rules are abided, then you will be around a lot longer to enjoy your caravan. The danger of double adaptors powerboards long leads etc is not only the amount of current, but heat (hot spots) voltage drop, excess heat and damage to your fridge or AC motor as well as the danger of the lead being damaged or cut. Like the previous mention of speeding, yes we can and mostly do, however speeding at the wrong time in the wrong place might just one day prove fatal. I guess it all depends how much risk you are willing to take? Just don't winge when you suffer the consequences

Ray,

Please do quote the relevant number, I am interested to read it.

Cheers,

Jim.

Jim, a number of references can be found in AS3000 as to general installion practices. Direct legislation is found in As3001:2001 wher you may read 2.2 about maximum demand, 5.2 RCD protection, 5.1 supply lead requirements, 5.3 installation of supply lead requirements. App A describes how maximum demand is calculated. Reference should also be made to AS3199 extension leads, Other references to As 3004 , 3.1 connection to supply; 3.2 supply cords refer to similar installations. Compliance with these standards will assist in your obligation for the safe use of electricity required by the the electrical safety act 2002, s26-s27

The technical argument Jimbo puts forward is quite correct.

Mike Harding

Hi Mike Harding

Wondering if you can comment and confirm if using a 10amp female plug on a 15 amp male extension socket (or filing down the 15amp male plugs earth pin) is within the terms of the supply authorities rules and be deemed by any accredited electrical inspector to be safe?

Cheers
PeteS

Sorry Mike Harding
Ooooops, sorry, make that...
"a 10amp male 3 pin plug connected to a 15amp 3 pin socket"

Apologies, was too quick :-)
Cheers
Pete S

>Apologies, was too quick :-)

A foible which afflicts all of us on the internet from time-to-time :)

I'll take a look at AS3000 tomorrow but I am almost certain such actions would be outside the standard.

Now let's look at the safety aspect:

a caravan is an electrical unit built as a 15 amp system so all the switch gear, wiring etc from the point of supply entry is rated to 15A or better.

A domestic 10 amp socket is capable of supplying 10 amps plus any fault current permitted before the protection device trips so we now have a 10 amp system supplying a 15 amp system - I can't see an issue there.

If our caravan owner chooses to use three toasters and a kettle at the same time he'll trip the 10 amp breaker in just the same way, that on a caravan site, he would trip the 15 amp breaker.

You can view the domestic dwelling in the same manner; it is protected by, iirc, a 100 amp supply authority fuse but a quick count of the 10 amp sockets in my house suggests I could draw far more than 100A if I plugged a 10A load into each one of them, the fact that I probably wouldn’t is called the diversity factor and seems to work quite well. However I am _very_ unhappy with the Australian practice of permitting small appliances with (say) a 3 amp rated cord to be plugged into a 10 amp socket! That is plain daft! Yet AS3000 permits it!

My strong suggestion is that people don’t file the earth pin because of the danger of weakening it, instead I suggest they make up a short length of cable with 15A/10A plug/socket pair as an adaptor.

Mike Harding

mike_harding@fastmail.fm

Hi Mike Harding

Thanks for the response. I would appreciate your research on AS3000 and the other standards it refers to.

I'm sure you woud agree that IF the 10amp to 15amp connection is deemed not to be in accordance with AS3000 and/or the supply authorities rules then it should not be promoted to others as an acceptable method.

I guess most forumites really want to know if its legal. At least they can make an informed decision.

Would be nice if we could put this baby to bed once and for all (yeah, i'm a dreamer).

Thanks,
Pete S

Hi Pete

>I would appreciate your research on AS3000 and the other
>standards it refers to.

I'll take a look as soon as I can - I have access to the whole standards database - which should be free to all, but isn't!!! Another damn disgrace.

>I'm sure you woud agree that IF the 10amp to 15amp
>connection is deemed not to be in accordance with AS3000
>and/or the supply authorities rules then it should not be
>promoted to others as an acceptable method.

No, I wouldn't, indeed don't, agree with that. I cannot see a safety issue with it (see my post above) if you can I'd be pleased to listen?

Don't runaway with the idea that "Standards" are always right or sensible - most of them are drafted by a "Standard Committee" which usually comprises a majority of people from interested commercial suppliers.

Standards have a value but they are not the Word of God handed down on stone tablets.

Mike Harding

Hi Mike Harding

>I'll take a look as soon as I can - I have access to the whole standards database -
Thanks, I appreciate that.

>I'm sure you woud agree that IF the 10amp to 15amp
>connection is deemed not to be in accordance with AS3000
>and/or the supply authorities rules then it should not be
>promoted to others as an acceptable method.
>>No, I wouldn't, indeed don't, agree with that. I cannot see a >>safety issue with it (see my post above) if you can I'd be >>pleased to listen?
MY RESPONSE: My comments relate purely to the non compliance of the wiring rules and supply authority terms and conditions. This gets into all sorts of legal situations. The supply authority can disconnect power and insurance companies can deny claims due to non compliance. I'm not only coming from the angle of safety, I feel users must be fully aware of ALL implications in their non-compliance.

> Don't runaway with the idea that "Standards" are always right > or sensible - most of them are drafted by a "Standard > Committee" which usually comprises a majority of people from
> interested commercial suppliers.
RESPONSE: Agree however many of them become industry standards and benchmarks. We are eventually bound by them under that respect whether we like it or not.

Cheers
Pete S

Hi Pete

>and insurance companies can deny claims due to non compliance.

A valid point, without doubt - insurance companies will try and wriggle out of anything :)

My assertion is that I can see no technical risk in what I have outlined so I would adopt it without hesitation but each to their own.

I'll have a look at AS3000 Pete but I'm sure it will say "No" :)

It's a risky business: life is a sexually transmitted disease with a 100% mortality rate :)

Mike Harding

Make a 15A to 10A adaptor cable - ensure you don't exceed a 10A current draw.

I have two goats if anyone would care to discuss this question with them?

Mike Harding

Que Sera.... sera............... whatever will be will be.....


Grrr!!!

There are none so deaf as those who will NOT hear (or listen for that matter)....

reply 3 follow up 8
Number 1 my hat off to your words
I'll eat humble pie, but won't cook it in a van with a large oven, and a 10a feed?? eh!
RCD safe, ok..yeah well how's "a degree of safety in certain fault situations"?
Active to neutral me,, probably even more plausible considering we are sitting on tyres. Old vans, with old appliances increase potential maybe?
I did say the pro's make their comments for 3 reasons.
But you guys never get personal, and you well know your on the money, that's pretty cool.
What do we call 10a to 15/20a adapters in the entertainment industry, "Jesus leads".(yeah I know don't rag me)
Is there still 1 more correction and a fault area not mentioned yet?. Maybe the correction was too stupid, to comment on.
Thanks for ending with "stay safe eh". also Sparkyray earlier had a "enjoy safe holiday" after spelling it out straight.

rockpiglet...if you ever see a person who has been severly injured or even die from electricty you'll really understand the words Stay Safe...when lots of volts and amps are invloved...

the chasis of the caravan should be earthed, and when connected to the grid would have an earth connection...meaning tyres aint insulating it

Yes No1 I have, unfortunately had to render first aid, must admit though thankfully not death.
But still it's the height and or venue/site that substantially increases our risk.
Correct van SHOULD be earthed, but only added this as could make your active neutral scenario even more plausible? Rubber tyres, rubber jockey wheel, no earth in feed... a floating earth. Would van then be insulated?

Sadly, how many pro's have died because the mains SHOULD of been off.