Feedback sought from non-members

I have nothing against being a member but don't want to pay $50. ($20 maybe)

I personaly don't use any other part of the site other than the forum, saying that theres alot of usefull info and its a great site but i like my forums.

To me there is about 20 other 4wd forums out there (all free) that i could use but i choose to contribute to this one and one or two others aswell.

At the end of the day its all about giving and gaining infomation and if David wants to make this a pay site for that info then we all have the option to stay or leave.

I don't just take from this site as i feel i do my part to contribute as others do to.

Im starting to feel unwelcome here because i choose not to pay so if thats the case then you only have to ask me to leave.........and i will !

Kev.

I would think everyone should stop and think carefully, before they say things that will either be taken wrong, and or will cause the case of members versus non members.

I am ex air force, and as a result of my military service, now have to live on a invalid pension. This means that we have to watch every dollar that we spend.

Additionally I belong to about twenty forums around the world, whose aim is to help others, and to obtain help. I well understand the cost of running a web site, and I see this forum as being just a small part of the total web site.

The problem from where I sit, is that many people just cannot afford the hundred and one small out lays that would come, if you wanted to be part of the action.

The prime purpose of a forum, is to give and recieve help with problems associated with the forum interest. I would like to think that most people are prepared to put in and take out of the forum, with the prime aim to give to all.

Remarks made by some "members" show a lack of compasion and understanding, of life outside their world.

The site operator, from where I sit, needs to come to grips with whether they can afford the cost of running the forum, with this mixture of non and paid members.

If that cannoty be done, then they should make that fact known up front, so that people for for ever reason cannot be members, make their decision not to join.

However when I look at the contributions, I see a very high level of input and help from the non members, and from members I have seen contributions that do not appear to spread oil on the troubled waters.

After when we see someone stopped on the side of the road, will we ask to see membership before we offer and give help.

Remarks little stingy bugger, do nothing to help the program at all.

Maybe the stingy brother could save your life one day.

Regards

Col Tigwell

What happens if the non-members cannot participate in the forum as it presently stands?

Will they will go else where leaving it all to the members to support. I reckon they would. Can we support it?

There is just over 500 of us isn’t there? Will the advertisers stay and support this site to only 500 persons? I would want my name getting more exposure than to only us members!

In my opinion this site would die if it is left to us members only to support even at $100 dollar memberships! Can we afford more? Some could, some cant and others wont.

OE is a profit making organization and as such it’s going to be the directors/managers who will make the decision as to what ultimately happens to the site! Can it afford to keep going as is? Its all relative as to how much profit it’s making I guess. No profit means a cut in services and then the customers complain, then they swap to another provider!

The non-members should not have to pay if they don’t want too as with out them we can expect to lose it all. A non-member will not support the shop and certainly wont need to support the Advertisers.

If I am reading this right the OE needs more members and paying Advertisers if it to remain as is! More Income (should) = more profit and hence good services.

Come on Non Members if you can support please take out membership ….you GET FREE MEMBERSHIP if you purchase something from the shop providing the value is over $150.00 ……. Don’t You Need A Good 1st Aid Kit for home or doesn’t your parents or in-laws…WHAT A PERSONAL EPIRB or one for the 4X4!
…. Buy your wife a great cookbook. Why not buy the 4 of them and together with the bird guide and venomous creatures books give them to her for her birthday (better than buying her a an electric drill) or your relatives for Xmas ….at least you’ll get free membership.
Richard

WE do advertise on this site and to date have not any feed back from our ad or answers on the forum . The reason I like the site is the forum and there are also other parts on the site.
The forum does get some good answers and good questions it makes good reading.
Also were are all these 4x4 forums I would be interested to know.
All the best
Eric
www.capeyorkconnections.com.au
Peter 07 4094 1745
Eric 02 4294 3496Cape York Connections

I have only just discoverd this site, not that I have had earlier need fo such.
I had a question I could not seem to find an answer by searching through Google or Webwombat an Ozy site. By chance I came across this site and posted a questioon as a visitor, and was happy with the response and the very friendly way in which it was answerd. I was expecting to be answerd as some dumb bugger who couldn't know one end of his forby form the other.
After this and looking further throught what is posted on here I will visit more frequently.
I was a little stunnd at the $50 asked to be a memeber I would be happier to pay $20/$30 Ok we probably spend 100x's that much just going for a weekend away to enjoy our great out doors and meet fellow 4wheelers..
If the forum stays as well informative and helpfull as it presently seems and must have been. I will seriously consider the the $50 asked but remembering the rule try before you buy.
Ive been a camper and fisherman since I was a kid. But only recently aquired my own 4by and am already making plans for a few trips away.
So with some help from fellow forum members I hope I can make my enjoyment of the outdoors that much better.
hey guys lets support each other.
if you read this far thanks for your interest
Hope to meet you out in the bush one day

Steve

An interesting debate. Unfortunately I don't know enough about IT matters to make a terribly informed contribution however a couple of things spring to mind.

Firstly, just how much does it cost to maintain a forum such as this?

Secondly, and Richard touched on this, as this site represents a commercial concern for the owner isn't the idea to attract as many users as possible so that advertisers can be encouraged to pay for advertising knowing that the site has a strong hit rate?

To me it's chicken or the egg stuff. There are a number of potential revenue streams from a site like this. Viz a viz advertising, mechandising, itinary planning ,membership etc. If the site is not returning a profit or at least generating enough revenue to justify its existence then surely the owners need to re-evaluate the cost versus revenue model of the whole business.

Anyway, to this point, we haven't had any input from the owners so to what extent is this really an issue that members should be looking to address in this way?

PLease take this as a helpful reply.

I went to the adventure shop the other day with the aim of spending $150 and could not do it.

I did have the log book and a couple of cook books in the cart, (not even close to $150)

What would i have bought.

Some of Les Hiddins books

The new "Princess K'gari" book about Fraser (I'll be getting it anyway)

An exploroz flag (if there was one).

and who knows what else.

I have no problem with user pays, if that is what is needed, but I can't see myself going to $50, the old price of $30 i would have done.

The other thing is in relation to consumer confidence. If the forum becomes members only (who knows, I may become one) the numbers, and therefore ideas, suggestions and answers will dwindle quickly, my membership will no longer be as valuable, (this does not encourage me to spend the money).

As for answers to supply/demand I believe that it lies with advertising/merchandise, and that ain't my area of expertise.

Please see this post as attempting to be constructive.

chopper

To Rohan K, David and Michelle,

I think the answer to the problems is staring you in the face (actually NOT staring you in the face, to be precise). You have all these vendors that pay good money to advertise on this site (full credit to David for an excellent job in that respect), BUT...where are they??? May I make a suggestion that the advertising be placed in the sidebar of the forum (perhaps free for the first month of a 6 month advertising block) where everyone can see it as they are clicking through. This would produce more exposure for the advertisers who may see more sales as a result, and therfore pay more to subsidise the running of the site. When advertisers see the traffic through the FORUM they would be more likely to part with their money. The basic problem is that the readership has to go LOOKING for the advertisers at the moment, and, undertandably, the advertisers are not getting the sales results from their advertising dollar.

Fine tuning the geographic part of the advertising search engine would help (including the capital cities seperately), as I noted in a previous entry.

One reality is that a great part of the readership (members and non-members) resides in the eastern part of Australia, so the advertising (mainly WA-centric) is not really appropriate to us. Us easterners need to spread the word a bit more...

There are some people like myself that do not have a credit card and are therefore limited to what they can buy over the internet, and purchases through this (and other sites) are awkward. This also applies to the membership charge.

In the context of the above comments, the forum needs to remain free for the advertisers to get their sales (>>> David gets paid). Creating a "closed shop" will kill the site entirely by limiting the pool of potential sales the from which advertisers draw their sales.

Just had a brief look at post 5048 and understand it is the forum that is causing the problem.

The only real way to help improve this problem in my view is to go back to a cheaper server or introduce adverts on the forum pages like the yahoo sites, must admit i hate this advertising but may be a nessesary evil.

Just shouldn't penalise the forum users.

I would like to make the following suggestion in regards to the need to underwrite the Forum on this site. I plan to take out a membership, and will do that shortly when I need to make some purchases from the shop. A recent health setback has forced me to delay this, which does not help David very much, but that is the way it is.

1. In a former life I was involved in media sales and management. Advertising leads to customer *enquiry*. Sales people them make the sale based on that enquiry. At times we had various "drives" to attract advertisers to various organisations whom our company represented. My suggestion in the first instance is to have David compile a list of advertisers he may like to see on his site, and members then (via the magic of email) contact them indicating that they are users of the forum and would consider using their products and services if they were on the site. It is my estimation that they would receive enough email to arouse their curiousity sufficiently to enquire of David as to what costs are involved etc .... at that point it is up to David to convert their enquiry into a sale.

2. I think car stickers work (along with many other forms of advertising) ... I see them .. I tune into the various radio stations while I am travelling to see what is on offer ... etc .. etc ... If people see enough car stickers for a given organisation, it also leads people to enquire. Once again .. once the enquiry is made, it is up to David to do the selling. I'd be pleased to carry an ExploreOz sticker on my truck, even if I had to pay for it.

3. There are a number of good Media sales organisation around the country who do this sort of selling on a fulltime basis. Armed with details of the site, some good authoritative information on the number of "hits" the site gets, these companies can do most of the legwork in approaching various advertisers for Internet advertising. I think the usual rate of commission is 10%. Given the sort of organisations that David may want on the site, it is pretty impossible for him to do "face to face" in the way that these organisations can do it for him.

4. My final offering is to suggest (if possible) that the forum be switched to another less expensive server. Going to it is pretty seamless, as it is just another link as far as we "surfers' are concerned.. It is not an ideal solution, but it is a thought. I maintain a website for my old Army unit and when we ran out of space we transferred part of the site to another server. Worked fine, and then our ISP gave us extra space so we were able to put it all back on the one site.

I will keep my thinking cap on and see if I can make further contributions on this subject. I think it is worth the effort.
Safe travels
Jack

If the forum is the problem, and the rest of the site is doing the job, then it seems piss easy to me to resolve -> Scrap the forum, Burn it.

Why not open a Yahoogroup for this forum, and just use that as though it was the sites forum... THEN ITS FREE!!!!! And no traffic problems. SIMPLE!

Im with others. I contribute with information on this forum, as to lots of others, the ones getting nasty about paying are the ones that are usually asking questions...

But with the glut of 4WD forums out there, 1000s to be honest that are free, why would you pay? The same questions from people get cross posted on different forums you see it daily, here, Patrol forum, Melbourne, Outerlimits, 4wd Monthly, Overlander etc etc, all from one person. Dont think that people only ask here, they dont.

You can get information on anything out there for free, people just choose to use this place - if your happy to pay, all the power to you. I'd rather send $50 to the starlight foundation, and use free forums.

www.snakeracing.com.au tried to make it user pays on their forum, there were 100s replies from wankers there "YES NO PROBLEMS WITH $20", then there was the ones that didnt want to pay, so they started another forum, which as you guessed was free and now everyone is on the free one, and not snakeracing, which is now almost dead. Snake introduced Popups at one stage, that almost caused mass riots, not me, popup killer works a treat!

Either that or have more sponsor ads. As others have said, opening when you open a post on the forum. People dont mind clicking on ads, when they need stuff, they just dont want to go looking for them! www.google.com.au works for me when IM looking the net for information, unless I know what Im lookin for then usually just try www.MAKER OF WHAT IM LOOKIN FOR.com.au.. if that dont work, then google.

Personally I dont want to see this place as a SITE go, I dont think ANYONE would say this place isnt the best around for Aussie Touring Information, but if the forum goes, life WILL go on...

YMMV...

The other thing is people keep saying go to a slower server - people were moaning weeks ago before Dave changed to this place that the speed sucked, and they hated slow sites whinge moan dribble...

Now that its on a fast server, they want to go back?

Dave ya cant win!

as a member and business owner I feel that the big money will come to this site via ads and customer service the more advertising on this site with a discount or commition to this site for member purchases will far out way the $50 from each new member ,I have just ordered a new campertrailer for approx $6000 and would have been happy to say I heard about there product on EO but sadly there was no referance to the manufacture here even though he is in the same state as this site is based a 5% kick back is good money maybe EO could look further into this avenue of income to help pay the overheads of this Forum.Im sure others members or non members would be more than happy to tell the retailer of the good reports they have read on this site re ;their product if they knew EO would also benifit ,my two cents worthBorn to drive a 4x4 , not a keyboard
Peter York 4x4

Non members did respond to original thread of 5048. I know I did.

Exploroz I feel would benefit from collecting some user demographics to illustrate to advertisers their total userbase as 500 members sounds a bit lame, sorry but its true. Easy enough, anonymous when you register wether member or not.

A tiered membership seems pretty popular and i have already done so off my own bat.

Discussion about advertising in Mags is erroneous as this site is as indicated primarily based around a forum whereas a mag is based around vehicle tests the rest of the mag is pretty much fluffer.

Potential advertisers do not have to spend to be mentioned here as illustrated a couple of times above. You all still bought their products, wether they contributed or not.

You can't go a full forum page without Engel or Waeco rearing their heads somewhere. In threads maybe the paid advertisers could be highlighted.

This whole discussion seems to of been a bit devisive as what happened back when someone else signed up and urged others to. Its a problematic situation its not personal.

There has been some good suggestions and I think E.Oz will be busy reading all this and good luck to them just remember that exclusivisity is not the answer.

Sorry .. but i am not a 'Member' ... and why would i want to pay to read the response to this comment... Have responded to many questions in the past and copped abuse and crap from all the 'Trucker' experts and the gathering of fans, .. and am happy to take a back seat and 'look -on ' .. have bought off their site and if they( David + Michelle) aren't happy with it well I can go elsewhere... IMHO there are too many experts who are 'bitumen burners' who appear to have no experience in the outback, all except day trips from their tarmac coated towns , who write loads of cobblers and promote their own opinions as fact....and as for the Nissan/ Landcruiser vendetta and childish rot that accompanies all that nonesense... well really I can do without it all and go Outback every year for 6 weeks and you can all go run and jump for my comments !!

Time to put the knives down and get on with the real reason we are all on this forum to talk trips ,4x4 and camping ,the owners of this site have a problem to solve and yes it afects us ALL but it is their site and there problem ,sorry to say but the good info is getting less and the WHO SAID WHAT is getting more , is this a site for adults ?????Born to drive a 4x4 , not a keyboard
Peter York 4x4

Hilux - I have to concur with the $50. It was $30 initially when I joined and I had no hesitations in paying that but come renewal time it had leapt to $50 and it was with some hesitation that I renewed. I doubt that I will renew again next year.
Col, fortunately I can afford it but I still like to get value for money, as do we all, but if I do renew it will have been a line ball decision.
Having said that I've looked at other forums and they're sheer CRAP but it's something I could live without easily enough.
I've said it previously and will do so again. This is a commercial decision that EO must make. Not one that I would like to make mind you but it's not my line of business.
For weeks (months even) I've heard nothing but complaints about running costs and yet member numbers are increasing all the time. Add that to the doubled membership cost and things just have to be better than they were previously.
I've done my bit by joining but as stated, will think twice about it next year. It's only cos I needed a book from the shop that I justified renewing this year. Adventure Shop has nothing left for me now.
I like non members contributions and like the fact that the answers and questions while sometimes too straight leced and regimented (anti lift kits, tyres etc), most are rational and relevant on this site, as opposed to other sites. You're all welcome in my opinion and the forum is the main reason we are all here.
I've learnt some pretty good info in the past twelve months and even saved a few bucks along the way. Had a few written tussles and even laughed at some responses. All in all good entertainment but $50 spent at the local strip club would have given me that too.
Sympathise with the dilemna of site owners but there ain't nothing I can or will do about it except continue along as usual.
cheersIn here - thinking of out there !!!

I have recently joined the EO site as a visitor after searching the Web for useful info about 4WD towing experiences and off road caravans. The reason being (me, the wife & 3 & 5yr old girls) are about about to purchase a Jayco Dove Outback (based on the research sofar) and we are keen to find out abouts other peoples experience with a Jayco Outback when actually taken off road. So far, I have found the EO site and info the best, with a great forum.

So, currently I'm a visitor, if I did become a member ($30 or $50 or whatever), what additional feature or benefits would the EO site offer ?

David and Michelle-
Well Done
It's the best forum by far... but until I decide to buy something from the "shop" and I probably will soon.. I can't justify $50 as there are more important things to spend my money on...
However I agree about the advertising- why is it so hidden- why as we browse do we see no ads at all.
I have bought a number of products and mentioned the exploroz forum as the source of the info- maybe we all need to do this more often. (Can't remember the last time I bought something because it was advertised in the Yellow pages...)
I am forever amazed about how many people will offer constructive and helpfull advice. I believe I offer far more positive input rather than asking for help. (The knockers and criticics should shut up! Debate is fine but not insults...)
Anyway, best of luck and hope it all works.
Thanks and cheers

As far as advertising goes, I'm happy do deal with a popup or two so long as it's not every time you click on a button or read a thread one pops up. If you copped one or two in half an hour you were on that's not really too much of an inconvenience - you can always close them or get anti-popup software if you really hate them that much. if you put too many on it will drive users away.

Cost of operating is gonna be a key issue - if I was charged to use this I'd go elsewhere - as mentioned theres thousands of free 4wd forums out there and a lot of them do have more useful advise if you're after something specific (like how to fit part x to brand y to build the greatest 4wd ever). However, Explore Oz is also good at what it specialises in too - mainly touring rather than hardcore rockhopping or mudbashing (which are more in line with my interest - hey I have got a Suzi after all).

I still come here from time to time because the people are generally friendly and are prepared to be helpful most of the time (and when they're not I can have the pi55 taken out of me as well as the next bloke). Actually a lot of new 4wder's start out here and I like trying to help people out and offering my advice - some of it's even useful.

I'm sure you've hear the phrase in business, "People are our greatest resource". It's true. Without the responses from many of the non-members this forum would be deader than a dinosaur, and without the site hits bang goes your advertising bucks, and exploreoz is no more.

I'm glad people pay to subscribe, but forcing people to pay for the services is quite simply business suicide, when you have thousands of free competitors. I'm not gonna be one of the paid subscribers, As it is I manage some free forums of my own, and if I wanted more people to chat to I'd just open up another one or stir the pot in some of the ones I'm involved in as a member, moderator or administrator.

Not that I've been around here much anyway - too busy playing with alternators and plastering, and not that there'd be many notice I'm gone.

Plastering was caused by Suzuki. Tried to extend garage by parking in spare bedroom LOL. Pushbike handlebar through wall - both sides days before inspection......

Fiddling with some electical (alternator) problems with the car running to test charging and somehow I must have knocked the car into gear - how I dunno since I was leaning over the front guard at the time.

The only thing I can think of is that after I put the body lift in clearance has been really tight to the gearshift lever (I even had to change the boot to stop it jumping into second by itself due to pressure from the rubber).

Maybe me leaning against the guard was enough to help it decide it wanted to be in second.

It happened to me twice on my last 4wd trip but I just thought either I was stupid and had forgotten to take it out of gear, or the flex of the body due to theextremely rough terrain was enough to shift the cabin that couple of mllimetres it needs to jump into gear. Definately with the abuse I've piled on the Vitara recently there's been plenty of flex and squeaks in the cabin and the panel gaps have all moved a few mm here and there....

Might have to have a closer look - after I find a permanent alternator solution. Anyone know a good machinist in Brisbane to make me some custom 6mm spacers for my alternator, so i can get around to butchering my gearshift levers instead...?

This thread has become so big it's taking ages to load & I'm on cable. Things seem to be digressing. Despite all the who-har and emotion I would be interested in some resolution, a lot of people have put in a lot of time and deserve some finality to their effort.
Just a couple of final (I think) matters to mind. I'm glad that David stepped in as it dumped his business back in his lap and that came from his original comment about T. In a sense David has a financial committment to this site, we provide the intelectual content to the forum. Without the forum how would the rest of the site function, I would suggest only on a user pays basis for the info requested.
Business's are about bums on seats and non more than this site.
David advertises in the Aust 4x4 Monthly and says the site is free. Free means free, so why does he whinge that it's getting too expensive because of the traffic, yet he advertises !!
We have also concerned ourselves with something on his behalf, as we are want to do on a forum, that'a what a forum is. We pay a fee to become a "member". But what is a member ?? All organisations I have been a memeber with have given me a right to see the minutes of meetings, vote on resolutions and to see the accounts as presented. Really we are nothing more than customers, some of us are paying for our goods & services & David through advertising "Free" use of the site is giving product away. And he is crying poor !!!
I sort of feel ripped off.
In my humble opinion David needs to reduce the cost he charges for the services and invite more people in with the reward of something special like an annual members BBQ out in some desert, BYO. +++ sponsors.
I think a couple of more knowledgeable than I advertising gentleman have given David a good pass here, I wonder how far he can run with it.
My post has now taken on the same tennor as the others aaggghhhh
I thought it would be different. Do I sound cranky ?? Hope not.
David, please acknowledge emails. It makes me think they are not being read or falling on deaf ears, I did send one about a potential advertiser & I might have another. Just "thanks" will do.Carpe Diem

Look up the word FORUM in the dictionary,,, "a free discussion and exchange of ideas," END OF STORY.

Cocka,,I meant FREE as in both meanings of the term,,not as Rohan K.would want,,after all said and done he actually did not pay for his membership anyhow,,being so called free with $150 purchase,,,either way you look at it he has ripped $50 from the profits of the income stream of the site.