Electrical (Non Auto) Advice required.

Sound advice...

Mot only could you kill yourself (or someone else) you could damage your inverter.

it makes me wonder what he thought an inverter inverts

Sorry! but I am going to be blunt. Inverters will kill you 240volts is 240volts and if you touch the active and neutral or active and earth if it is earthed you are looking to get toasted.

The inverter just sees you as a light bulb and allows your body to draw current. around 10 milliamps will kill you, Rcd's are 30milliamp to stop nuisance tripping.

Please don't give advice like this you could kill someone

G'day Richard,

It would seem curious to me that you should say that 240vac from an inverter is "will not kill you...........etc"

I would be VERY reluctant to ever put this to the test and would STRONGLY RECOMMEND that nobody should treat the output from an inverter with any less caution than they would accord to a mains output (GPO) or indeed the output from a generator.

I'm not doubting that you know a lot more about this type of thing than I do, but I just tend to think that those cables coming from the 3-pin socket of an inverter are as dangerous as the GPO.

Please correct me if I'm wrong.....

Cheers mate

Roachie

I wouldn't touch to outputs either.

All new homes have to have RCD's fitted but why don't new inverters or genset have to have them?

Cause they are not controlled by the supply athorities and I don't make the rules. It will come, RCD's will have to be fitted to all lethal electrical equipment.

Just reading the specs of the inverters we used and it says about electecution.

The reason it seems you can't get electecutioned by this brand is in there curcuit design and there earthing system.

Don't know if it is unique to there design but I doubt it, they aren't megga expensive.

Still appy caution.

I just find it fascinating that 12v that you can touch both poles of the battery and only run 12v stuff can be made into 240v.
when i first saw them years ago i just thought - yea right as if.
Only explanation i have been given is there is a little man on a bike atached to a generrator inside them

It maybe, this particular unit might be able to detect a fault to earth.
It is when things line up that causes the problem. nothing is completely failsafe.

Your original post is what we are talking about when you said they can't kill, and I will say it again.

YES THEY CAN

Also it does matter which way the light is wired depending on the type of fitting. As above, take it to a sparky and yes,inverters can kill.

Inverters do and can Kill.

all one needs is is enough potential to earth and sizzle sizzle...

Olcoolone,
You would be the "Ol-HOT-one" and that's just not so cool.

When have you, or someone you actually know, ever touched the (+) cable of an inverter supplied 240 VOLTS and lived to talk about it, with all the fingers and hands still attached to the neck....??


Please don't post such totally stupid, inane, idiotic, untrue and bulls**t statements on here, as some uninformed people may actually believe you, and not treat their Inverter with the respect and due diligence it truly deserves, it's NOT a toy.

Like every other reply, the 240 Volts produced by an Inverter WILL KILL, how do you think Washing Machines and Clothes Driers and Microwaves work with exactly the same performance from either 240v MAINS power and also the 240v Inverter power - if they are somehow different ?

you say-> "I just got lost in thought............. It was unfamiliar territory"
obviously ELECTRICITY is also unfamiliar territory for you !!

I first thought this thread should be deleted - but then maybe not, as it contains a message to every one
All INVERTERS that actually produce 240 Volts will KILL you - if put in the hands of an idiot.

Inverters are totally sealed units, and will not do any harm till the voltage is activated, that has nothing to do with installation, as all inverters are produced to an Australian electrical specification and electrical standard.

If you read the technical specifications on any inverter you will be informed they produce 240 Volts @ ??? Amps (or watts) and also that at that voltage you will suffer death as a consequence of playing with 240 Volts.

And to think I'm about to become a paid up member here on EO and I choose to 'correct' dangerous and totally wrong information, makes me wonder if I may be banned for telling it as it really is !!

The fact is - 240v produced by an inverter WILL KILL- end of post

grrr

Mainey...

mainey...dont get so hot under the collar....

i think the poor bugga is supposed to be a fridgie so stop picking on him.........but he should have known better non the less

Batboy "Also it does matter which way the light is wired depending on the type of fitting"...

it goes off when the switch is closed and viceverca if its wired the other way?? ...hahahaha

Batboy, most lamps used for 240v dont give a stuff if the power goes from left to right or right to left...they work equally as well....they are not polarity sensitive

Unfortunately that is the problem No1 :)
Often when people play with Mr 240v things will work fine but they are not always safe.

An edison screw fitting for example must be wired with the active to the centre pin or the metal screw bit on the lamp can be live when changing lamps. Then theres metal fittings that are required to be earthed yet still work fantastically without one until.... one day something goes wrong inside and the metal becomes live and you go to change the lamp.... opps

But you are correct most lamps are not polarity sensitive but the switch must be in the active line.

yes that is true but when switched off it aint alive
i have broken the glass when changing a bayonet fitting ...if still switched one of the probes in the lamp will be l;ive...pays to switch off

It's really sad to see people writing such dangerous mis-information, which could lead to someone being killed.

Any 240 volts can kill within one twentieth of a second.

Cause it can be live when turned off if the polarity is wrong, had a bloke here who thought he knew about electricity. His widow remembers him well.

My quote for the day is" Can you lend me your brain for awhile, I'm trying to make an idiot up here

We had a discussin with a major supplier of inverters when we had to fit them for a mining company, they said it is to do with the switching, how a load is applied and the earthing system.

This is proberly why you can't run some equipment of them like fluros.

But if used outside of there guild lines they may kill....wet weather etc.

Read my post above !!

The "switching" is only relevant to the 'type' of inverter system
Eg, the wave formation produced, Pure or 'square' or 'modified' etc
Yes, some won't work with fluros and some will.

he's a cheapskate Willem
doesnt want to pay the crematorium fees

Geoff, most modified sine wave inverter wont run fluro lights, are the globes you us differant or are you running a pure sine wave inverter.

regards Richard

I use a clip on light similar to a desk lamp and run a 7w fluro lamp with no problems also if you use a warm white lamp instead of a daylight lamp you will get less bugs

Steve

Richard,
I own two of the cheapest inverters that money can buy. They both run an Arlec 240 fluoro fine.

My non sine wave inverters have no trouble running fluros, in my bush shed I run standard 40watt fluros off my 60watt inverter no trouble.
Use warm white and still get lots of bugs, might be worse with the others.
Geoff

So the post was just a "jolly jape" in order to solicit pointless replies? Is that correct or did you actually need to know anything in regard to electricity?

Mike Harding

Mike, I think he's answered your question with the last line of his last post......

Quote: "I'll track down a sparky tomorrow and get him to wire it up for me.".......

Just my observation, I could be wrong...... (I was wrong once before; about 21 years ago I think it was....... haha)

Mike, it was an honest request and as Roachie said, Sparky time tomorrow

Just to follow on, I bought a piece of extension cord with a moulded plug so I don't know which one is wired active or which is wired neutral. The batten holder end doesn't have anything to tell me which is the active connection so I'm trying to get it right.
The above advice convinced me that I shouldn't be doing it. Hense Sparky time tomorrow.

Fair enough Des :)

Des,
You may already know this, but if you have a cord like you describe (moulded plug etc) and want to make sure what colour wire relates to which pin, then a multi meter is all you need.

Switch it to the Ohms setting (screen should read 1.000) and, touching the probes to a pin (at one end) and a bare wire at the other end, test until you see the reading go to "0". This will indicate there is no resistence and mean that that pin is attached to that wire.

Hope this makes sense.

A batten fitting is not polarity sensitive and also does not require an earth. Even so you may still have trouble as some batten fittings have 4 terminals, one for each of Active, neutral, earth and a loop terminal.
But by now you have taken it to a sparky so....

Well… I’ll sail even closer – in my experience most “licensed electricians” have a very limited idea about electrical safety. They are artisans not experts – would you ask a coal miner about the complex rock stress issues of engineering mining? Or a nurse about the risks of heart surgery?

A couple of weeks ago I undertook a course on “High Voltage Safety” – I was required to do so because the people I am currently doing some consultancy work for require it as part of their “training” scheme in order to allow me to work on 5000 volt equipment (despite the fact I have experience on 22,000V systems). This course was presented by a “licensed electrician” with (guessing) about 30 years experience – he was extremely confused about a number of matters including the “skin effect” (he raised it!) which is an area where high frequency currents run down the outside of cables rather than through the centre. Nevertheless he was deemed to be an “expert” despite the fact there were more doctorates in that room than you could poke a stick at.

To cut a long story short: Oz has created a situation where electricians have been raised to a status they cannot support simply to protect their jobs and electricity has been made out to be such a complex and risky subject that none but a “licensed electrician” can understand it. This is total rubbish; basic electricity is pretty simple and most people can handle it in perfect safety – as happens in much of the rest of the world.

Mike Harding

mike_harding@fastmail.fm

Mike, I agree with the sentiment in your post. However OZ has also created a situation where people will litigate against the softest target if something goes wrong. These days personal responsibility does not exist. It is always some one else's fault. If that someone is a shop owner (always perceived to have plenty of cash, just look at the amount of stock; never mind that the bank owns all of it) then he is the patsy.

EG if some one fails to read the instruction book on a mobile phone it's always: YOU sold me this piece of SH1T, and they throw it at you. I've even had instruction books thrown at me saying YOU read it for me.

It may be a terrible case of tin plating one's fundamental orifice but it is absolutely essential.

Bit like a inner tube I saw for a car tyre...."Caution Not To Be Use As A Flotation Device"

Litigation is the word of the 21st centery and it's an easy way for average people to get a sh*t load of money.

The number of companys we do work for that are asking about our insurance for our business is getting unbelivable.

Regards Richard

Ah well... either one is frightened of the world or one is not...?

Just to add to the confusion, me being a plasterer, occasionally when doing a job I have to run an electrical lead from the neighbouring house (pre-organised) to operate certain tools as the job property/house has no power connected. Twice now I've had a person from the electrical board come to my job and tell me that's illegal and I can blow the whole grid to thy kingdom come and if I continue using the neighbours power I will be fined/jailed. After querying the persons about it they explained that if I use the same lead on the side of the fence where it came from I'll be allright as soon as that lead crosses over the fence line I'll blow the whole suburbs grid and be liable for it. Something about blue phase/red phase. Am I the only one that doesn't understand/believe this? Can anyone explain ?
Cheers Boris

It might be a issue is one house is on one phase and the second house is on a nother phase...but you arn't using both lots of power.

Years ago they sometimes wired houses up to a couple of differant phases and if one phase droped out half the house would go out and not the other.

The place that us to be next to ours was like that, have a power black out and all our lights would go out, next door they would loose power in kitchen, hall way and one bedroom.

It is proberly more to do with ripping off the power companys or you neighbour

One theory that I have thought about is that the builder should have paid them $$$$ to connect temporary power to the job but didn't, saving himself $$$$ and not giving $$$$ to the electrical board.

Hi BorisK,

In regard to throwing a power lead over the fence, In a word, crap !

It used to be frowned upon but it is no different to having power outlets on different phases near each other in a factory or workshop (any place with three phase power). It's one of those old wives tales that still seem to be being perpetuated but the person telling them will not be able to give you a reason that holds water.

Grungle, on anything that has an earth it is iimportant to get the wires around the right way, most houses are wired at the box with netrual and earth tied together and the switching either single pole on the active or better still double pole an the active and netural.

If you have a problem with the equipment and it is wired wrong then you die.

Some things it doesn't matter if if you have it around the other way but if it is earthed then it is critical.

Regards Richard

Yeah no worries Richard.

Just stating that Fluoro's are not polarity conscious. I checked my facts before posting so as not to get it wrong.

Regards
David

Olcoolone

Do you really mean that neutral and earth are tied together?

Surely not

Jules

Grungle, you may have to be careful when stating that you don't need to worry about polarity on fluro's. Some modern fluros have electronic circuits for dimming and / or power supply. I would stick to what the terminations in the device indicate.

Jules, Yes the earth and nuetral are tied together at the main switch board but not at distribution (sub) boards. It is what is called an MEN system (Multipy Earth Neutral).

Jules: this link may assist
Link to UK electricity DIY FAQ

In the UK they call it PME rather than MEN but it's the same thing.

Ignore references to the "Ring main" system - unfortunately we don't use that system in Oz.

Mike Harding

PS. Kiwi: Nope haven't done the Snowy trip yet - it will probably be another 12 months or so before I do. I'll let you know at the time.

Regards
Mike

Mike although we dont use a ring main very often it is not ilegal, we sometimes refer to it as a 'centre feed' circuit :-))

Hi Kiwi

A ring main is an excellent way to do domestic wiring but it's only effective if fused plugs are used for all appliances and Oz plugs have no provision for a fuse :(

Mike Harding

Don't need fused plugs Mike. A centre fed or ring circuit is ok but most electricians don't realise it is ok to do so as it used to be illegal in 'the olden days' :-) As long as the protective device on the switchboard protects the cable it's ok. A long (and small diameter) cable run can have volt drop problems so by using a ring circuit you effectively double the size of the cable.

Hi Kiwi

The UK system is set up, iirc, to have a 30 amp fuse protecting the ring, it relies upon the diversity factor of a domestic dwelling not to exceed 30A (if one does the breaker trips). However the beauty of the system is that each appliance is fused at the plug so a table lamp with a small flex will be fused at 3A whereas a kettle will be fused at 13A. In Oz we stick everything on a spur fused at 10A so if your table lamp, video, etc develops a leakage fault of, say, 9A the fuse won't blow but the 3A supply flex will burn out - not good.

Mike Harding

Hi Mike
most of Victoria's general purpose outlets (GPO's) are fused at 16 amps

BillF