ABS & 4WD

Barnesy
That's a fairly simplistic view of the way ABS works and what it's for. One of the great advantages of ABS is that by allowing the wheels to roll it allows the driver to steer the vehicle, perhaps avoiding the danger, rather than just skidding straight into it. What you say was correct when ABS was introduced years ago, don't ask me how many, probably 20, but give the manufacturers credit for improving the product. Without naming names one of the manufacturers has this to say: "The new control logic senses when the vehicle changes driving conditions and alters ABS performance to suit, adjusting brake pressure to each tyre depending on its relationship to the road surface. Be it bitumen, dirt, ice, mud or sand, multi-terrain ABS lives up to its name by giving you controlled deceleration no matter where your next journey takes you." I have ABS in my 2000 Prado Grande and, combined with the Electronic Traction Control, it has never caused me any concerns and has been of great benefit on a number of occasions.

tessa

Terry, allow me to create an argument:

>>"The new control logic senses when the vehicle changes driving conditions and alters ABS performance to suit, adjusting brake pressure to each tyre depending on its relationship to the road surface. Be it bitumen, dirt, ice, mud or sand, multi-terrain ABS lives up to its name by giving you controlled deceleration no matter where your next journey takes you."

Sounds very impressive out of the sales brochure but I'm still not convinced.

I've seen comparisons between ABS vehicles and normal brakes (same model vehicle) on steep, loose gravelly descents and the ABS equipped 4wd stopped several metres further down the hill than the other vehicle.

The technology used in independent suspension on a 4wd sounds impressive too, but give me solid axles front and rear any day.

Barnesy

Mike

Don't tell your coming around to my way of thinking after all these years? LOL

I remember us having a blue about this a long time ago. I've got nothing against ABS, but I still advocate for the right to switch it on or off to deal with prevailing conditions.

ABS simply doesn't work in a lot of bush situations. Even at very low speeds I've been caught out by cattle crossing a track, or washouts in the road whilst driving into the sun etc.

Regards

Kim

Hi Kim

>I remember us having a blue about this a long time ago.

You sure that was me?

Despite the fact that I design the electronics for this sort of stuff I've always felt ABS was a high tech way of compensating for skills a good driver should have as a matter of course. As you say... it's not a bad thing (usually) but we simply shouldn't need it.

Mike Harding

"high tech way of compensating for skills a good driver should have as a matter of course."

As are auto transmissions, power steering, electric indicators, disc brakes, hi-lift suspensions, more powerful engines, diff locks, bull bars, spot-lites etc etc etc.

buy a series 1 landrover if thats what you want!

"As are auto transmissions, power steering, electric indicators, disc brakes, hi-lift suspensions, more powerful engines, diff locks, bull bars, spot-lites etc etc etc.

buy a series 1 landrover if thats what you want!"

Does a 40 series troopy count? Got none of those things (except bull bar and spotties)

40 sreies is a bit short of the required number of oil leaks to qualify!

If i was on a clay soaked steep hill i know i would want ABS, seen too many 4WDs sliding down steep slippery hills out of control that my ABS 4WD creeps down without sliding.

The ABS stops wheel locking so they keep rolling allowing you to steer the car and keep control while decending the hill.

ABS is the best on slippery down hills.

Baz.

Mate, have you ever heard about engine braking technique? Your post suggests that you using petrol automatic rig. (phew! only Yankees do that. But again they incredibly envy that we have choice while they do not). Try manual diesel on first low – way better and safer then any electronic gizmos.
Cheers
Serg.

Hill decent control (using abs) on newish 4wd's are now very good at their job.
I think you need to try it before bagging it.

John D

Think you'll find far more petrol autos out there than anything else, Serg. Modern ABS systems are fine on dirt. I have ABS on my '95 Statesman also and it's terrible on dirt roads, to the point where I think it's unsafe, however my Pajero is fine.

To John Davies:
I bet you right – they are good and indeed much better then use to be. But I bet that they still cannot (and never will) beat manual diesel on first low. Why should I use something overcomplicated (i.e. more prone to get broken or just outsmart itself) when I can use simple and incredibly reliable way? Why should I study each new gizmo and its behavior to adopt my driving habits accordingly when I can jump in front of the wheel of any manual diesel car and be sure that it will behave as expected? Do not full yourself – decent hardware still better then decent control (sorry for punt). Manual diesel still better then decent controlled car as well as difflocks still better then traction control. And nothing can be done about this.

To MrBitchi:
You right – more autos. But I still cannot get why people like them more then manuals. As for me there are no benefit (except of easier to sell) with lots of negatives to live with.

Cheers
Serg

Serg
I suppose you are still watching black and white TV!!! Who does your forum entries for you? Don't you find computers overcomplicated? Get with the times. We live in a technological world!!!
I don't mean to be rude but what is wrong with new things???

tessa

ROTFLMAO! Thanks Terry to make me such a good laugh!!!
I am software engineer and stuffing computers with program for 25 odd years!
Thanks again!
Actually nothing wrong with new thing except of old proper things works better and they more reliable. Marketing make everyone (almost everyone :-) ) to believe that anything with label “digital” is better. Yep it is better for them – they can make more money reselling *THE SAME* thing over and over without any cost. But it does not necessarily my benefits.
Face it – old analog mobiles work everywhere and for years, this is not even nearly true for digital ones. I still have old Panasonic VCR (circa 13 years) – it been punished unbelievably by my kids and yet still in perfect working order, while I have replaced as least 3 DVD players in last 5 years. And list going on.
Again nothing wrong for city slicker to have ABS and airbags. Furthermore I would state that they should be mandatory on family sedans. But when I looking for reliability, dependability and like to be in charge (instead of hoping of that some programmer actually programmed dumn device for this particular situation) I would rather choose bare manual diesel and will swap cogs by myself.
Cheers
Serg

Dumn, no editing. Dono about B&W TV, but B&W photos definately better!
Serg

So airbags only save lives within city limits? I wasn't aware of this, must remember to disable them next time I am on dirt.

Matt.

Very much so. When I am driving in city not everything under my controls, I am sharing road with lots of other drivers and some of them no more then idiots. When I am in bush and I run into tree at such speed them I have to relay on airbag, then I really deserve it. Besides airbags has very little (if any) efficiency on rugged 4WD with strong bulbar. Why do you recon Toyota does not include them even as an option in 70 series? Airbag and rugged frame does not mix well – this is why all manufactures switching to monoshell trying to convince everyone that “it is as strong as frame”.
Cheers.
Serg.

Serg,

You're joking right? Maybe if you run into a tree on your own then you deserve it. I hope that, if you have children, you don't apply the same philosophy to them. Regardless of my mistakes, I don't think my family deserves to die.

You are right about the 70 series of course, but airbags DO work in vehicles that have been designed for them and bullbars must be rated (and tested) to work with airbags if they are fitted to vehicles with airbags. Unless you are a conspiracy theorist they can, and do, work with vehicles designed for them.

Cheers,

Matt.

Actually it was semi-joke of course. But main point still remains – airbags not much effective on rugged vehicles. Plus what is scenario to deploy them in bush? Running into tree? I can assure you that tree *WILL* win. Head-on-head collision on top of the dune? No-one going to win. Do not full yourself that airbags will safe your life in serious situation and drive responsibly.
Serg

Serg, i have both, ABS and a manual diesel, oh and i also have Hill Decent.

Best of both worlds.

Oh and an airbag will stop you hitting things in the car, no different to hitting a tree on the tar, no one thing will save your life but combined they might, can't hurt.

Any safety device or traction aid is a good thing.

Baz.

Matt,
There are quite a few moot points in your logic. Firstly I fully agree (see my first replay) that if people buying 4WD for capacity or towing reasons rather then 4WD-ing then they must have ABS. In other words if going on dirt incredibly occasionally and in easy manner then ABS will not harm at all.
However even if I spend only 1% of driving time on really hard track I would not wish to have *ANY* interference with what I am doing.
In additional many modifications to 4WD severely disbalance braking system. Lifting, putting stuff on the roof, installing heavy long range tanks change centre of gravity and thus mislead any factory setting in ABS. Do not even like to mention bigger tires. It means that I do not know what to expect from it in critical situation and therefore I cannot relay on such system.
Therefore my strong believing is: if I going to go real stuff and especially on modified vehicle even only six times per year I would not like to see nor feel anything between my right foot and my brakes.
However, once again, if vehicle will be driven unmodified and as maximum extreme only on dirty roads them ABS must.
Just opinion.
Serg.

Serg while I was talking to you I was informing Pete and trying to assist after the lot of rot you have been spruking, I will post one reply about my 'logic'.

The ABS braking balance that you are referring to does not exist. You can change your wheels (as long as you change them all) change the weight height even distribut the load unevenly...THATS WHY ABS IS BECOME MANDITORY OR ALL HEAVY VEHICLES it makes up for all the human error.

The wheel speed sensors dont care what size the tyre is they will allow maximum braking up till the point that wheel starts to decelerate faster than the others and then braking to that wheel is reduced and then reapplied to keep them all the same.

What has that got to do with load, wheel size or height of the vehicle.

Serg I would think you stop now while you are ahead and help someone who needs assistance with computers rather than a safety question like ABS that way you might not endager their lives with misslead information.

ABS will assist your braking WAAAAAYYYY beyond what ever you think your braking skill level is....just accept it. Unless you are a race car driver, drive all day everyday in emergency situations and your brain is capapble of judging the rate of decelleration of four individual wheels at over 20 times a second...then sit back and accept you will never be at the skill level required to stop quicker than ABS.

Cut the rot this is a stupid argument and has gone on for way too many years.

>brain is capapble of judging the rate of decelleration of four
>individual wheels at over 20 times a second..

You're funny :)

Show me the computer which can catch a cricket ball?

Mike Harding

R u serious Mike...would have given you more credit than that comment.

Show me a cricket ball in a braking system.

Show me ONE person in the WORLD who can feel through the brake pedal that one wheel is slowing at a rate greater than the other wheels....back of brake pressure to that wheel till it reaches the same speed as the others and then start to reapply the brake pressure.

Is that you Mike......well you are a better man than me...and the other million engineers that have been paid an absolute fortune since the early 70's to design a system to do what YOU CAN NOT.

Im sorry Mike, I thought better of you.

I'll take that as a "No" then.

Matt: electronics has a long way to go before it can catch up with the human brain.

Mike Harding

Its hard to retract a stupid comment after you have made it hey Mike.... I know why dont you dig deeper then hahaha

There are many things your brain CANT do Mike and you RELY on electronics.....

Reply to that one without your computer Mike hahaha

Go on..... send your reply with mind power hahahahhahahhahah

You crack me up but Im a little worried you are serious?

Nah you couldnt be...could you? Dont dig any deeper if you are serious just 'think' me your answer hahahahahhahahahahah

"Show me the computer which can catch a cricket ball?"

Monty

Robot Catcher

No Ricky Ponting, but not far off.

To Matt (Perth-WA).

Matt, I like to put your attention that I recon for “just occasional dirt user” ABS is big plus (i.e. 99% of new-vehicle buyers should get ABS).

Secondly on sand I would be less worry about braking system then anywhere else. Simply because sand make a good brake by itself – just release throttle. What I am uncomfortable about ABS is when you going really steep downhill on hard surface with small stones – abundant situation in Victorian Alpines. I just do not trust ABS in this situation. At all.

And this comes from very simple observation. Where I live I have quite steep and sharp turned entry from local street to main road. I can provoke *ANY* ABS system to engage itself by braking on this place during turning. Including all sedans what I could test. Including my friends ABS-equipped Pajero. And it happens at very low speed (10-15 km/hr) where manufactures say ABS should not engage itself. And at the same time I cannot make my LC to block wheels and skid (on dry road of course), does not matter how hard I press brakes. And as result stopping distance with ABS actually longer and what is most important to me is totally uncontrolled (well controlled by some stupid computer under bonnet rather then by me). I do not know why it is like this – probably because braking and turning at the same time? Or because load on front end significantly increased? Dono. But what I *DO* know that under any circumstances I do not like to make such experiment on steep 4WD track.

I agree with you that my brain cannot activate brakes 20 times per minute, and I trust that ABS is essential on bitumen. And believe me, I am doing my homework and my “emergency experiments”. And agree to stop this fruitless discussion and lets everyone preserve his own opinion.

Cheers
Serg..

Aghrrrrr...
Should read 20 times per second of course
Serg

You are so right Nick. I have just been training people today in a manual Pajero and once I taught them the threshold braking method and they became proficient at it they were able to oubrake ABS on loose gravel. My cruiser has ABS and I have never made it work due to not braking had enough to cause lock up. Learn how to brake properly and you wont have to disconnect your ABS. Cheers,
Rob Berrill
Cert IV Instructor\Assessor
Accredited instructor cars\motorcycles\4wds
http://www.cairnsoffroad.com.au
http://www.aussieat.net
http://aussieadtours.blogspot.com/

The one time I've been in real trouble on loose roads, the gravel were a little smaller than golf balls, the camber on the corner was wrong.

Thankfully I noticed the corner before arriving to it, slammed on the brakes, locked them up and slowed down just enough to get around the corner.

With ABS chances are I would not have slowed down enough before arriving at the corner and would probably have gone straight off the road and into the bushes. I will not have ABS on my bush 4wd.

Barnesy

===> Check section on road and gravel. Critical of the ABS on the 2005 Prado, a very popular 4wd.

They have not said anything good about stability control or decent control in rough terrain either.