Hard wiring fused inverters, Do I need another wire on the Positive Wire?

Submitted: Saturday, Dec 22, 2007 at 13:24
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Hi All,
Quick qusetion, I am hard wiring a 300w inverter in my car. The inverter has fuses on body but I am pretty sure that I should still add a fuse or circuit breaker. What do you rekon?
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Matt

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Reply By: Matt(WA) - Saturday, Dec 22, 2007 at 13:28

Saturday, Dec 22, 2007 at 13:28
That heading should read Hard wiring fused inverter, do I need another fuse on the positive wire. Sorry
Matt

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Reply By: Member - Mainey (wa) - Saturday, Dec 22, 2007 at 13:30

Saturday, Dec 22, 2007 at 13:30
My shortest reply ever... No



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Follow Up By: Tony MD - Saturday, Dec 22, 2007 at 13:34

Saturday, Dec 22, 2007 at 13:34
Wrong. The supply cable to the inverter should be fused close to its source (battery). This is for the protection of the cable against shorts, not to protect the inverter from over loads.
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Follow Up By: Matt(WA) - Saturday, Dec 22, 2007 at 13:35

Saturday, Dec 22, 2007 at 13:35
Cheers Mainey,
Thanks for your quick reply. I wasnt sure as the inverter body is fused but if put fuses or a circuit breaker near the battery terminal it would need to be able to withstand a lot of current. Otherwise the bloody thing would be tripping out all the time.
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Matt

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Follow Up By: Member - Mainey (wa) - Saturday, Dec 22, 2007 at 14:29

Saturday, Dec 22, 2007 at 14:29
Matt, if you wire the Inverter up with the original "short" cable supplied, with-out adding to the 'original' cable length, then I would wire it up as it's supplied to you - by the manufacturer.
Does the instruction booklet recommend a 'fuse' in the cable ?

I don't use a circuit breaker/fuse in mine because the manufacturer did not recommend it, and I wired it myself anyway, so I know it's stable, the cable can't come loose because it's correctly attached to the battery and it's held safely in place at various intervals.

If, and I suspect it is, the cable is attached as part of the Inverter, then that end won't come loose, however the end attached to the Battery may come loose if it's not attached correctly.
When it comes loose it carries no current, so is not an electrical problem anyway.
The only hassle is caused by the cable 'breaking' or some-how 'shorting out' in it's length, if you attach the cable securely that will not be a problem either.

It's probably at least 8 AWG cable from the battery to Inverter.

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Follow Up By: Member - Kiwi Kia - Saturday, Dec 22, 2007 at 20:38

Saturday, Dec 22, 2007 at 20:38
If the feed wire comes loose and disconnects it will carry no current. However, if it just comes loose it will carry MORE current - overheat and cook the terminal or cable !

As others have already recommended, use a fuse in the feed as near to the battery as you can.
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Follow Up By: Member - Mainey (wa) - Sunday, Dec 23, 2007 at 00:14

Sunday, Dec 23, 2007 at 00:14
Yes, and when it eventually does fall off it will carry no current at all.

For the cable to come loose or even fall off, maybe the lug was incorrectly mounted to the cable ??

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Follow Up By: Member - Kiwi Kia - Sunday, Dec 23, 2007 at 06:51

Sunday, Dec 23, 2007 at 06:51
Most over heating/excess current problems are cable/lug faults caused by poor installation or vibration. That's why you have a fuse at the closest point to the supply.
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Reply By: MEMBER - Darian (SA) - Saturday, Dec 22, 2007 at 13:46

Saturday, Dec 22, 2007 at 13:46
I'd be putting a protective fuse at the source (battery), just to protect the line (as others have said) - and the current would be around 3A to 4A no ?
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Follow Up By: Member - Phil G (SA) - Saturday, Dec 22, 2007 at 14:43

Saturday, Dec 22, 2007 at 14:43
Hi Darian,
300watts divided by 12 volts equals 25amps.
So a 35amp fuse should be OK. Its a fair bit of current!

Cheers
phil
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Follow Up By: MEMBER - Darian (SA) - Saturday, Dec 22, 2007 at 15:57

Saturday, Dec 22, 2007 at 15:57
Hmmm - confused here Phil - I thought the 300W was on the inverter's 240V output side = 1 and a bit A - input onn th 12V side would be a bit more for the inverter function..... am I thinking backwards ?
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Follow Up By: Member - Phil G (SA) - Saturday, Dec 22, 2007 at 17:26

Saturday, Dec 22, 2007 at 17:26
Darian,
Watts is the same, and like you say, there are some losses, so you need a bit more than 300watts on the 12v input side.

I just looked up the blurb for my 300watt inverter - it says the "input full voltage current" is 30amps and it says to use a 35amp fuse.

Watts = Amps x Volts
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Follow Up By: Bonz (Vic) - Sunday, Dec 23, 2007 at 08:57

Sunday, Dec 23, 2007 at 08:57
Hi Darian, you are right, for the 240v side, just over 1 amp, but that 300watts also travels from the battery and like Phil says, at 12v its around 30 ampos on the 12v side. I used a 40a circuit breaker for my installation, not a fuse, as it will reset itself once cooled down
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Reply By: Matt(WA) - Saturday, Dec 22, 2007 at 13:59

Saturday, Dec 22, 2007 at 13:59
Hi All,
Thanks for your snappy replies. Just had a look on the Projecta web site. Have a look at page 10 Inverter Hard wired So I guess that I need a 100amp circuit breake of fuse. Cheers
Matt

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Follow Up By: Matt(WA) - Saturday, Dec 22, 2007 at 14:05

Saturday, Dec 22, 2007 at 14:05
Me again,
Its the IM600, 600w nominal, 1200w peak. Not 300w. Cheers
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Follow Up By: Member - Mainey (wa) - Sunday, Dec 23, 2007 at 00:00

Sunday, Dec 23, 2007 at 00:00
The IM600 Inverter connects to the Battery posts with common "alligator clips" and with-out any fuse or fusible link mentioned, unless you make up your own longer, thicker cables as they suggest.

I would DEFINATELY not use "alligator" clips to connect the Inverter to the battery, but use similar battery connections to the more expensive brands that are available.

It appears Projecta don't use a 'fuse' in the 'normal' positive cable and looking at some other brands, including my own, they also don't have, recomend or use a fuse but are hard wired into the Inverter.

In the advertising blurb it's stated the IM600 is not suitable for laptops, but then it's not expensive either, hence the alligator clip battery connections.

The indisputable fact is, if there is a "shorting" problem, yes it will be safer with a 'fuse' in the Positive cable, but if it's wired up as to be able to create that 'shorting' problem, then it's either wired wrongly or dangerously in the first place, as cables that are correctly mounted don't easily come apart.

As to mounting in the console area - no dam way!!



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Reply By: Matt(WA) - Saturday, Dec 22, 2007 at 14:55

Saturday, Dec 22, 2007 at 14:55
To clear it all up.
I have done a bit more reading of the website. I didnt get instructions with the inverter so this is what I am doing. I want to mount the inverter on the side of my center console. I have 4m of 32mm2 wire(only need about 3.2m. I have now read that I need a 100amp fuse or circuit breaker and I need to double insulate the wire. Thanks for your snappy replies and help.
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Follow Up By: Gone Bush (WA) - Saturday, Dec 22, 2007 at 15:09

Saturday, Dec 22, 2007 at 15:09
If the inverter is that close Matt, don't spill your coffee on it.

I wouldn't like to hear about you, or my dear old 80, going up in smoke.

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Follow Up By: Bonz (Vic) - Sunday, Dec 23, 2007 at 09:02

Sunday, Dec 23, 2007 at 09:02
Matt,

Mount the inverter under your seat and run a short lead power board up to your console, if you need the outlets there. The inverter will have a fan on it and will annoy the carp outta you mounted so close.

I also find that whay goes into the inverter are many small users, mobile charger, camera charger, dvd player, laptop charger, streetlight for the roof rack etc, so you'll maybe find that more outlets are handy.
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Reply By: Mike Harding - Saturday, Dec 22, 2007 at 15:43

Saturday, Dec 22, 2007 at 15:43
And just to un-clear it... :)

1 - you do need a fuse/breaker at the battery.
2 - I assume you mean 32/0.2mm cable or 1mmSQ. CSA?

For the cable... it depends what type you have; Tri Rated 1mm Switchgear cable to BS6231 is rated at 17A for single cores running in free air with a temp. rise of less than 35C. However 32/0.2 2491X 1mm equipment wire is rated to 10A and 32/02 Equipment Wire to BS4808 is only rated to 6A at 70C. Simple really, isn't it? :)

Your 600W inverter will draw about 55A at maximum power which far exceeds any of the above ratings for 32/0.2! We'll ignore it's surge rating as this won't really matter as far as the cable is concerned.

Using the calculator here:
Voltage drop calculator
your 3.2m of 32/0.2 is going to drop around 3V at 55A and apart from the fact that your inverter won't like that the cable will also be dissipating about 165W of power which, may well cause the insulation to melt.

I suggest you go for something like 6mmSQ CSA equipment wire and a fuse of about 70A at the battery - get a quality fuse holder and good lugs to connect at both ends. I also suggest covering the cables with clear PVC tube. NB. Ensure you use an earth return cable direct to the battery negative too.

Mike Harding
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Follow Up By: Matt(WA) - Saturday, Dec 22, 2007 at 15:59

Saturday, Dec 22, 2007 at 15:59
Hi Mike,
Yeah the copper itself is 6mm diameter(is that 32mm2, not really sure but the copper part is definatly 6mm). So it should be ok for the job. I am also going to use a 100amp circuit breaked.
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Matt

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Follow Up By: Mike Harding - Saturday, Dec 22, 2007 at 16:06

Saturday, Dec 22, 2007 at 16:06
Not diameter - cross sectional area. You need to be very sure of the rating of that cable before stuffing 55A down it for long.

A 100A breaker is too large - 70A or so will be fine.

Mike Harding
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Follow Up By: Member - Ian H (NSW) - Saturday, Dec 22, 2007 at 16:15

Saturday, Dec 22, 2007 at 16:15
Mike, you always talk sense on thing electrical and I for one take note of your recommendations. Thanks for your great input on many things. Ian
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Follow Up By: Mike Harding - Saturday, Dec 22, 2007 at 16:28

Saturday, Dec 22, 2007 at 16:28
Thank you Ian.
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Follow Up By: Bonz (Vic) - Sunday, Dec 23, 2007 at 09:09

Sunday, Dec 23, 2007 at 09:09
hahahahaha Mike talking sense...NOW I KNOW what Laura was talking about with nonsense replies in her other post hahahahaha!!!

Have a great Christmas Mike and Ian and Matt too, good luck with the install.

Matt I think you'll find that you wont use anywhere near the full 600w anyways. If you do, then be very watchful if you're running it for any length of time, cause as Mike says, 55a running along anything is a heap of power! And 1200w inverters or higher hahaha have to run welding cable to them just for peace of mind.

Had a mate I met at Broken Hill who made coffee from the side of his rig. HAD to have the engine running to run the espresso machine. Sucked 230a from the batteries when doing it. "Wow" was all I said - oh and "Thanx for the Latte!"
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Reply By: Member - Mike DID - Saturday, Dec 22, 2007 at 20:19

Saturday, Dec 22, 2007 at 20:19
1. You ALWAYS need a fuse at the Battery (or other pwer source).

2. The fuse rating must be LESS than the current carrying capacity of the THINNEST wiring fed anywhere by that fuse.
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