First Aid Kits, What do you actually carry?.

Sounds like your on top of it Kiwi! ..Have to be with kids ..LOL.

I"ve been slack, never had a prob out in the general scheme of things, but after the other week , makes you realize anything can go wrong!.

Cheers Axle.

Kiwi, Just thinking , Tooth ache with the little ones!!.

Neurofen ..... I have standard antibiotics from mum too which cover most things.

Ive had the odd moment when your 1km from the car and 10km from the house out in the bush so I try to cover most things....

the only thing that I dont have in there at the moment which will be put in is steri strips....
Laura

Yup your not allowed to use it ED Nursey... but I sure as hell hope you would on me if I needed it (cant you tell we are nurses as well).

We carry a fair bit of gear (size of a large backpack) - can do everything but tube you or give certain meds...

splints
bandages - quite a few for the odd snake bite
suture kit
medications - over the counter ones... sort of
pocket mask
stephoscope and other bits
note book / pen
steri strips
burn aid
tweezers, splinter probes
sizzors
sterile dressing packs
ice pack (self cooling)
bandades
first aid book
pen light
safety pins
gloves
eye pads
thermal reflective blanket
... thats roughly it


The way I figure it, its one thing to get bogged.. its another to have a heart attack diggin your self out of it. Sure its a bit over the top I agree but with our training, I doupt the person needing it will complain to loudly.

If anyone needs help - we intend to be able to give it.

I have camped with nurses, glad we did when my daughter came off her bike last year, she was better attended to in the bush than she was when we went to a&e 3 days later.....
Nick

Ooppss!., I hope the day i'm in strife Someone like you is around!!.


Cheers Axle

Don't forget pressure bandages for deep wounds...stop the bleeding,
and eye wash...very important to have something to irrigate the eyes.

Gloves are handy and a mask to help you do mouth to mouth....helps cover the vomit.

And last but not least, a rifle and bullet in case things are too bad.

Well, Im hoping you wont need us, but mate - if you do, and if we can - we will.

besides the next day - we may be needing you to sort the car out as we have no bloody idea what we are doing in that !

(aint stopping us thou)

I have regular refresher training for my Snr 1st aid qualification, but as I don't use the knowledge every aday I'm bound to forget things so I always have my 1st aid book with me. As they say if all else fails read the instructions. Car also always has a kit with extra bandages and slings etc. Want to get the emergency tooth repair/1st aid kit I've heard about but never seen.

"I doubt the person needing it will complain too loudly" - you would like to think so, however the way this mad world of ours is going- I'll bet there's someone out there who will be willing to sue you afterwards for something or other, and about a zillion lawyers who will take on their case.

Barnesy,

"antihistamines in case someone is allergic to an insect sting"

Could you please give me brand / detail . If it requires a prescription I can get one from my Dr .

Thanks ,

Willie .

PS Do these "go off" in a short period of time ?

Carrying a good first aid kit and having the training to use what is in it is important, but it must be said that for major trauma, it will ultimately be the time to definitive care (trauma hospital) that will be the most important, particularly with internal injuries that cannot be detected clinically. Yep, a few bandages to stop bleeding will help.... IV's and fluids??? The jury is still out on the value of this in remote settings without proper BP, /cardiac monitoring equipment etc. Things that will kill quickly are the likes of severe primary brain injury or high cervical spinal injury, major disruptions to greater vessels and tension pneumothorax. The first couple prove hard to manage in the field, whilst the tension pneumothorax can be managed with the correct training and experience.

"......can do everything but tube you....." would have thought this to be outside the scope of nursing anyway????

"......to have a heart attack diggin your self out of it....." Hmmm, likewise, unless you have a 12 lead cardiac monitor/defibrillator, a dose of steptokinase, or a cardiac catheter laboratory in your backpack, I doubt there is much you could do for a heart attack in the bush....basic care, aspirin and whatever pain relief medications you can muster, is about it, unless you are willing to carry oxygen??

I have seen plenty of 'trained' personell carry a ridiculous amount of first aid stuff in the bush, but in all honesty, plenty of the basics are all that's really required.

I should also mention personal medications should always be carried, particularly in case of severe allergic type reactions (antihistamines/adrenaline or 'epipen'), diabetes, cardiac complaints etc.... we can all 'encourage' those to take thier meds when required.

Adequate communications is the key to really helping someone out in any medical emergency. Without it, the liklihood of prolonging extrication time is much greater and in most medical circumstances time is the key. The flying Doc is a great resource if they can be contacted!!!

Cheers.

Mark

RE the legal issues, oz doc........ I agree with your sentiments, but could it be that someone may also sue you if you do nothing? My understanding of the law is that you have a duty of care to provide assistance up to the level of your knowledge and equipment available at the time. I would want someone to give me their "best shot" in a remote situation and would be more likely to sue if they stood around and did nothing, just because they "...may be sued..."

Anyone who is paranoid about legal implications would not work in the medical field. Cautious, yes...paranoid, no.

Cheers,

Mark

I hear what you're saying Mark. I guess I've just lost all faith in the justice system - especially with what's been in the news lately (the guy taken to trial for accidentally killing one of three men whom were breaking into his house and tried to attack him, the hospital and doctors in the US whom failed to diagnose an extremely rare almost always fatal heart condition in a celebrity etc etc.) The cynic in me feels that if money-compensation was not involved -then would we see so many court cases? Time to take my happy pills!

Willie, i find the best antihistamine for bad allergies is phenergan (promethazine) available over the counter at the chemist who will tell you doses. The downside is that it is also a sedative and will put you to sleep, great for kids who are already upset about the allergy but no good if you want to keep driving.

For minor allergies the non-sedating ones will do, such as claratyne, zyrtec, among others etc. These you can get from the chemist who will give you some advice.

Barnesy

Mark (and others)

>"could it be that someone may also sue you if you do nothing? My understanding of the law is that you have a duty of care to provide assistance up to the level of your knowledge and equipment available at the time."

Partly right.

At law no person is obliged to voluntarily go to the rescue or aid of another person i.e. the strong swimmer can ignore the weak swimmer. HOWEVER... once you establish a relationship with the injured/troubled party i.e. "let me have a look athat, I can help, etc", you have then established a Duty of Care to that person, and are now legally obliged to offer continued assistance, to the standard of the skill, and within the constraints of the equipment available until another party with the same skill level or greater i.e. paramedic, nurse, doctor etc.

For most however, it becomes more of a moral and ethical issue rather than a legal issue. To my knowledge, to date, noone has been succesfully sued for rendering first aid to an injured party. Some states have good samaritan acts, which prevent someone suing another providing they were acting in good faith and within the scope of their training and skills.

Mark, the jury still out on the value of iv fluids out bush? You don't need cardiac monitoring equipment if you find someone out in the desert who hasn't had a drink for 2 days. You can tell by simply feeling their pulse to get an idea of their BP and heart rate.

Barnesy

Barnesy.......I'm very pleased that you can interpret someone's BP from their pulse. In my experience, I have found many persons with very weak pulses who are grossly hypertensive, though not often the other way around. It would be a very crude measurement indeed. Yes IV fluids may be of some assistance in the case of severe dehydration, but I would commend you to read some of the more recent literature concerning the use of crystalloids in both penetrating and blunt trauma, particularly when some distance from hospital.

I reiterate my point: "He who communicates, commands!"

Cheers,

Mark

Mike,

Thanks for the legal clarification..........I hope not to be the test case!!!!!!!!!

I have witnessed the "do nothing" for fear of litigation and it makes me very uncomfortable.....morally.

I'm sure that I would stop and render assistance to the level of my knowledge and training, equipment available and time/distance to more advanced care. But I hope never to have to as it is far more stressful without the familiar backup of the equipment that I have available at work, in addition to qualified assistance.

Cheers,

Mark

Barnesy,

rough guestimate of BP via pulse according to prehospital literature:
-radial pulse present- Systolic BP 80-100mmhg
-radial absent, brachial present- systolic BP 60-70mmhg
-brachial absent, carotid present- systolic BP 40-60mmhg

As I said it is rough, and only a guide to establish if someone is little sick or big sick.

Mark,

No problems. One would hope, that most people that encounter a situation where help is needed would be bound by their moral and ethical viewpoint. It is a shame that people look towards what is happening in the US as far as legal and litigatory rhetoric, truth beknown, we are more greatly influenced by the uk, where our legal system actually started.

I understand your viewpoint, at the end of the day you can only do your best, regardless of the equipment and training. Im in a similar situation to yourself. I fear the day that I come across an incident that requires more than what I can offer, but sometimes its the simple things that are all that matter (e.g. airway, breathing, circulation). An all to common story you hear is that if only the people that stopped at accident 'x' had kept the drivers airway open, the outcome would be different. As hard as it is, at the end of the day, if you can say that you did the best that you could in regard to the situation, you should sleep easy- not always that easy, we are human beings.

With the current laws and climate, I dont beleive will we see someone successfully sued for playing their part for providing first aid, what will be scary is when the time comes that someone is sued (in the civil court) for not rendering- scary times that would be.

Take care, do what you know is right, and she'll be apples ;)

Mike

HaHA,! I bet you use a Darning Needle, and fishing lne,..lol.



Cheers Axle!.

Yerrr.......something like that

Once when we were out in the scrub on the Nicholson River in the Gulf, I split a tooth.

Flying doctor had just been to town(Burketown) and so it would have been another two weeks wait. So I drank half a bottle of Scotch first up and then with a variety of pliers removed the offending bits. The only thing that hurt was my head, the next morning. Judith went an hid in the van with earplugs to block the screams out...hahahaha

In all the years of travelling the bush I have removed 6 teeth.

One has to have two or three mirrors to get to see what you are doing and a strong torch as well.

Some bits were left behind in me gums and came back to haunt me later on....LOL.

Yeah, it painful, but its better than poisoning yourself with an abcessed tooth.

Cheers

and don't forget the gloves to prevent accidents with the barbed wire ;)

Cheers Kev

I'me with Willem on this one.
My addition though is a bag of flour (well, we all carry that anyway?)
Nothing better than a flour pack and bandage to stop heavy bleeding from a deep laceration.
Then a couple of drams for the bloke/s doing the repair job.
Plus the underlying need for a satphone that ALWAYS works wherever one is.
All those drugs make things too complicated??
furph

Doesn't asprin, morphine & scotch cover all bases Footy??

I used to go out with a vet, who threatened to take some 'green dream' just in case true tragedy would strike, but I always worried I'd wake up with a needle in my backside.

And if your sinus or hemmeroids play up ? Or a bee flies into your ear? What about stomach upsets, or even just food stuck in your teeth? Just a random selection of events that can ruin a trip if you don't pack wisely.

whats that???LOL!!!

Kiwi,

You should know as you already have 3 kids or did the stork deliver them like he should LOL.

Mahindra won't fit anymore kids in the back :))

Get back to it...remember the candles and roses....that will = lovin' now that Sam's back....!!!

And as for the stork....oh I was definetley prega's...! The scales told me I was!!

Are you sure???

The candle is out of wax and the roses have to many thorns LOL

well....you cooked tea didnt you....thats a start....thinking of cooking tea for a loved one...im hungry!!

Hi Holden4th,

How often do you replace the epipen ?

I don't have to worry - my school has a generic epipen which they give out to us HPE teachers at the beginning of every year - just in case a student forgets to bring theirs along. At the end of the year we hand it in and next year we get a new one; unless we have to use it of course which, touch wood, hasn't happened to me yet.

A group that I belong to was thinking about carrying them but we found that shelf life and storage temperature range would be difficult for us to look after them, they aint cheap either.

Kiwi,

I have just been through the exercise of epipens with my 18 month old son- shelf life of 12 months, cant be refrigerated, cant be stored in heat i.e. glove box of a car, and without a prescription cost upwards of $100, prescription is about $16.

Hi Mike, Yes, thats exactly what we found so decided that those that need it should carry their own. Saves us worrying about the viability of the product.

Kiwi Kia
Are you referring to ET tubes or guedels airways? I carry a couple of the latter which I feel could be useful in many situations while the former would be pretty darned hard unless well trained and used with an appropriate scope as well.
Cheers
Mrs W

Hi Wilgadene,

Guedel airway tubes, put them in upside down and then turn over, I don't think that they go back far enough to need a scope. Main thing is to not use them too early and then remove them as soon as the patient starts to 'lighten up', otherwise you will get gagging and .... I live in hope that I will either never use them or an experienced person will do it for me. I carry then mainly in case of a childs alergic reaction to stings. I did help a trained person to use one on a heart attack once, patient was well down and I couldn't use a bag with one hand and hold the mask with the other, tube worked ok till he lightened up after the ambos had got a line in and used the paddles twice. Patient (workmate) survived :-))

The term tube has far different connotations to those who know what you're talking about. You are talking about an oropharangeal airway. Why you are actually carrying them is beyond me.

It's unlikely you are going to get someone who needs a "guedel" in the bush who's going to "lighten up". Most of the realistic scenarios involve them deteriorating until the helicopter gets there.

If you don't really know what you are doing you shouldn't be using more than a jaw tilt. There are 7 sizes and unless you use the right one you risk it being ineffective in achieving your desired purpose, and if used on someone who's reason for becoming unconscious was that they were choking prior to you running over from the adjacent camp, and you don't get a good history from the panicking family with them you might make them worse.

Using them without the usual manual techniques such as jaw thrust & chin tilt can make them less effective also.

They are losing vogue in emergency medicine as Paramedics move more toward laryngeal masks & nasopharyngeal airways, both of which are contraindicated in certain conditions.

Using one as a Level II first aider with no training in what is seemingly a simple piece of equipment is not at all wise.

Dave

Geocacher

I'm an ICU nurse with plenty of experience in using this equipment. I agree that untrained persons should not attempt to use any type of airway.

Forgot to mention, we always carry Ural sachets for if the chicks get a funny "down there" bit.