Diesel is economical??? ROFLMAO

Haaaa Haaaaa


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Yeah, Carry jerries of unleaded in the car taking up needed room on a long haul,,, volatile fuel....
Stupid petrol electrics to faulter on some cars with water crossings...
Untuned LPG backfiring the air filter box to pieces....

We can also pick petrol cars to bits also...

And my arguement is as good as yours..

Try Weipa diesel prices ..... $1.75 ltr !!!

And we are a town, well..... almost.

Makes one feel for the poor sods in the really remote areas, aye?

Carry a few gerries of LPG?
It may be only 60c a litre but is only half as economical.

Have you really had a good look at fuel consumption figures for petrol V diesel once 4wd is engaged? Diesels still get reasonable figures but petrol usage skyrockets. No diesel would ever use 25-30litres/100km but it's common for petrols when the going gets tough. How are you going to carry around all of those extra litres of petrol out bush?

Carry around a few gerries of diesel and get far more range than petrol. You don't think this is an advantage?

Barnesy

Not many places to get LPG at 60c tho'. Mostly over 70c

Diesel 8.5 l/100ks LPG 18 l/100 ks Do the maths again!!!!!

Cost figs mean nothing without listing the difference in consumption as well.

LPG = VERY Explosive = kills people, kids. Basically a bomb under the car!!!
High maintenance cost

Diesel = Not explosive = safe, easy to carry lots
Low maintenance costs.

Each to his own.

Ian

And we (the taxpayer) paid for your installation!!! This must make it economical (For You)
Ian

And lets also look at the longevity of a diesel vechile vs petrol. I would expect to get 400,000 - 600,000 kms from my diesel without too many issues compared to a petrol vechile if which I would be lucky to get half of that without major expense.

That I feel also has to be taken into account. Then there is also the availability of petrol, distance travelled, ability in regards to creek crossings etc.

Personally I would not bother with a petrol 4WD and will keep the petrol vechile relegated to going from home to the local shops and back. The diesel will continue to take me reliably and cheaply (in comparison to petrol) around this great country.

When I look at comparisons in Patrols at least, before I got gas injection installed I was getting 900 - 1000 kms on my 2 tanks with the diesel and my sister in law with a petrol Patrol was getting 550 - 600 on the same amount of fuel. I certainly know which one is cheaper.

JMHO

Flipside?...factor in a new head every 100-150 thousand km, valves every 50-80 thou....

$1500-2000 per 100 thousand km is a lot of oil changes.....

I don't think many buy a diesel because it is cheaper but more likely as it is better for the intended use. I don't drive my diesel cruiser around town too often but very happy with it off road and touring. I worry about cost, that's why I have a car for day to day driving.

Dave

Against the modern diesels, petrol isn't really more powerful and anyway, it's the torque that counts and the diesels, even the smaller ones like the LR TDV6 and the Prado 3 litre, both pump out more torque at lower revs than the Tojo V8 petrol. Then you have the Tojo TTD V8...say no more.
If towing and yes, going out seriously in the bush, diesel is the answer..its a no brainer.

Jim, this is an argument the diesel drivers will never relent on. They all have a vested interest ;-)

A very few diesel owners can make the argument that range of a diesel and availability in the bush proves their choice is the better one. These are the exception, not the rule.

The vast majority of 4WD owners spend in excess of 90% of their time/kilometers doing the daily commute. For these a petrol/LPG combo is by far the most economical. The towing argument is not relevant. Any modern petrol 4WD has more than ample power to tow your boat/caravan/horse float.

A large diesel (Cruiser/Patrol) will get between 10 & 12 LT/100K. At $150/LT this works out to $15 - $18 /100K traveled.
The equivalent running LPG will get around 20LT/100K. At 65c/LT this works out to $13 /100K traveled. Factor in the initial purchase cost and higher maintenance costs of a diesel and you're miles in front.

Exploding LPG cylinders? Pure myth.
Replacing heads cause of valve recession? Not relevant in modern engines.

As I said, for the few who spend a lot of time outback (lucky sods) a diesel makes sense. For the majority it doesn't.

Depreciation remains the highest cost component in running any vehicle (unless you buy an old model to start with.) How long are you fartoring in running your vehicle for? The gas tax concession is due to come off in 2011, after which lpg will go up significantly in price. A further factor. Diesel can be made from natural gas by using cobalt at prices that make it more than competitive with current diesel. Mercedes and Exon are already involved in developing this system and multi billion dollar plants are about to come on line in the Middle East.
Given that Australia has sonme of the worlds best natural gas and cobalt supplies, it wont be long before that technology is running here.
With fuel prices set to double again in the next three years, the real question is, how long do you intend keeping your vehicle? If buying a new vehicle and intending keeping it for 6-7 or more petrol years, I'd be betting on diesel as the best way to go. The off road, remote area advantages of diesel are beyond debate. If you use a large 4wd f mainly for running around town and you don't want it for many years, then the gas petrol option is probably better,( but try not to think about trade in time, because as fuel prices continue to climb, trade in prices will be ugly)

Everybody knows that LPG 4WD actually called shopping trolley :-))))))))

Seriously though IMHO Diesel only make economical sense for long ownership where owner doing all maintenance. Otherwise petrol + gas cheaper to own. Second-hand in particular with gas preinstalled.

That is for general use. 4WD-ing somewhat different. For example going into VHC means around 100L diesel from refill to refill (could be more). That means as least 150L petrol (very conservative). Forget about using gas – it will finish even before you hit track. Thus to be on the edge of safety margin I need carry as least 3 can of petrol (in addition to 90L main tank in 80), because I been stupid enough to put gas cylinder instead of long-range tank. Where you suggest to carry them? Inside? Illegal, dangerous and smelly. On the top? In high country where center of gravity already high enough? On the back? Overhang big enough as is with two spares and HLJ and AFAIK illegal. Any other suggestions? Plus with gas refill required each second day unless one completely crazy to put extra cylinder in cargo area. Plus as least in case of 80-s I remove my spare from underneath not for the reason to fit gas cylinder that hangs even lower! Not to mention water crossing. And last, but not least. I would rather smell diesel that LPG, although it is personal.

LPG 4WD for mum’s use? No problem. For trader? Acceptable, but expect refill each second day. For towing? Yea-a. If you happy refill each 200km. For 4WD-ing? Forget it!

This is my 2 cents for sharp as razor Jim.

Cheers
Serg

Perhaps there may be two 4wd vehicles same size, one being Petrol/LPG and the other being Diesel that have both travelled the same distance out there, with all the fuel figures then a fair comparrison can be made.

Andrea

Well heres a thing. An agreement reply.

Today, the value of a diesel is grossly overestimated. The reasons for owning a diesel lie 30yrs back in motoring history and are almost irrellevant today.

Changes in petrol motor qualityand performance, electronic overcontrol engine management systems, taxing levels on diesel fuel, and over the top, parts pricing still being based on the popularity of diesels in the 80's means;

1/. Diesel vehicles now, really only suited to people wishing to carry/tow a load regularly for considerable distances, with the safety factor of a low flashpoint fuel.

2/. Watercrossings and todays electronics...........HaaaHaaaHaaa
( regardless of engine. If you havent had a problem yet, just wait )

Diesel fuel economy is a given. Has no one noticed that a petrol vehicle, fully loaded or towing, uses much more fuel than normal, whilst a diesel carries out the extra tasks without a major diet change.

And then one day the Chinese, the Indians, and the rest of the developed world burnt the last ounze of consumable carbon fuel available and cut down the last tree so they could make the last cup of tea in the world.

And then someone thought, "Maybe there are just too many of us for all this world to go around."

Owen

This a post going nowhere!!!!

Aaaaww Jim, does someone need a hug

Baz

LPG goes up the further out of town you are, not to mention how the consumption goes up when you put 2 tonnes on the back :)
13l/100 to 15l/100 for a diesel...whats your consumption of lpg towing a van??? 30l/100....each servo has different gas...some has different butane mix to propane, and out goes your economy and tune....oh, did i mention the under bonnet heat perishing hoses, leads, batteries and exhaust systems faster than the beloved diseasal :)
If you want to talk about how we are being ripped off paying 20c more for diesel than petrol...thats another story...make your own diesel 25c/l
Andrew

'A large diesel (Cruiser/Patrol) will get between 10 & 12 LT/100K. At $150/LT this works out to $15 - $18 /100K traveled.
The equivalent running LPG will get around 20LT/100K. At 65c/LT this works out to $13 /100K traveled'

Gee only one reply that put a bit of math to the argument. You need to work out exactly how much is costs are /km or /100km.

With serviceing intervals virtually on par or better with a diesel and the initial outlay for the gas conversion, going by the rough figures above gas isn't significantly cheaper. It's cheaper but I wouldn't do back flips.

When towing my petrol vehicle (and gas vehicles I've had in the past) absolutly chews the juice. My diesel with the same load only adds about an extra 2l/100km not 8-10l like the petrol.

I'm not happy with the price of diesel ($1.689 where I am) either as its 22c dearer than petrol and gas is 82.9c but I don't think selling a diesel 4x4 to get a petrol to convert to gas is a rational option.

Leroy

All of you have it wrong,

Steam is the go.
Plenty of water, lots of mills and bores. Price free.

Plenty of timber, lots of trees, forests and plantations. Price free.

Chainsaw. Price $200 @ Bunnings

Axe. $30 @ Bunnings

Chainsaw/axe operator. The Missus, cost $1000 for ear plugs and thats not for the chainsaw noise either.

Steam engine. who cares just steal it. Cost, If you get caught 3 free meals/a bed and as much sex as you can handle.

So you can all keep your expensive diesels, petrol and gas 4x4s

See you can blow off steam nearly free, but try that with petrol or gas and the blow off turns to blow up and costs a mint.

The Ape.

I just love that people are so insecure in life that they need to justify their own purchases on others to feel assured??

That is sooooooooo sad. Grow up people and accept that we are all individuals and free to choose for ourselves...We all complain about the ANTI-4WD brigade yet we all are quick to follow their dispicable tirade of abuse when someone has a choice dissimilar to our own.

How about air-locker, engel, landrcruiser, petrol......oh no thats right it has to be auto locker, waeco, patrol, diesel....oh no maxi, coleman, Landy, gas pfft get a life!

sad sad sad

Nice fishing Jim!!!

Whoops, my last reply should have been to MrBitchi, not Jim.
I am surprised that no-one has challenged my comments on the lng/diesel process. I find it incredible that this technology seems unknown in Australia, given our lng and cobalt reserves.
check this for example
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7815172/
If one wanted a new 4wd at the moment, I'd suggest getting a 60 series Toyo diesel and putting the $50000 I'd save into a company that had big cobalt reserves. BHP for one. I think that what you will make over the next decade will more than cover the fuel price rises.

I find cost / benefit analysis almost irrelevant and I suspect many others are of the same opinion when you look at the various customising that is done on four wheel drive vehicles, especially within this forum. I mean, look at Roachie’s rig (great rig!), but fuel costs kind of take a back-seat when you consider what it is you are trying to achieve. (Correct me if I’m wrong Roachie!)

Janet (SWMBO) has already told me that I need to live to 150 and drive The Landy around Australia every other week to make it pay for itself. Fuel consumption is less of a cost issue for me, when taking the total vehicle cost into account. The reason I set it up the way I have is for long range travel and therefore range is the key. I could have set the vehicle up with diesel/lpg combination and achieved a better overall fuel cost, but at the expense of range.

Another important factor to consider about fuel alternatives, such as lpg and bio-diesel is that in the long-term it will not be the cost of production that determines price, but demand. The price will eventually close to a much narrower margin versus oil based petroleum products.

ECOnomy can be measured in alot more ways than what YOU pay at the bowser and what YOU pay at the mechanic and what YOU pay to drive 100klm.

Hi guys most of you know I drive a lpg/pet vehicle and that suits me. The only place I couldn't get LPG was Normanton and Karumba. So I just used petrol from burke and wills roadhouse (yes you can get gas there) to Karumba then I used gas from karumba to Koolata /new dixie. I have the conversion that keeps both standard petrol tanks and has dual LPG tanks. All you need to do is search the fuel companies online b4 your trip and you can plan for this.
When I sell it I will buy another (not diseasel).
Also that the hardcore comp trucks are now mostly running petrols and auto unlike years ago of diesels and manual boxes..
Just a thought

Dave

Do you intend to own your vehicle 6 months?
yea diesal is way to dear ATM but it was only a few months back there was almost no difference between diesal and petrol
point is price difference change all the time .
gas was usally about $1.00 per litre at the capricorn roadhouse with none till pt headland.
no good for us as the vehicles spent 2-3 weeks at a time cruising the pilbarra - nothing but Diesal at our bowsers
i bought my wagon primarily because it was fully kitted out fr off road work and was cheaper than any petrol or gas powered vehicle.

You are a clown Jim. For somebody who is supposed to be promoting their business on this forum you make some dumb comments.

Simple maths?
LPG up here in Pt Hedland is around 90c-$1.00. Diesel $1.70. A LPG 4wd would use upwards of 20l/100km whereas my GQ with 300 000km on the clock is using 12l/100km cruising on 110. You work out the maths on that. Thousands in front?

If you can't see the benefits of diesel for outback touring then I worry for the customers of your business who you are giving advice to.

Barnesy

As opposed to what some of you think, this was never intended as a Troll. It was about the cost to FUEL your vehicle.

Facts
According to the windscreen sticker my 4L V6 Courier returns 13.4L/100km under the ADR81/01 test. The Ford Ranger 3L T/D achieves 10.5. We all know these figures are near impossible to reproduce in the real world but they are relevant for comparisons.

My V6 running on Sequential LPG uses 10% more than ULP, so I'll say the V6 on LPG uses 14.7L/100km.

V6=$8.82/100km (at $0.60/L)
T/D=$16.80/100km (at $1.60/L)

OR

V6=$11.76/100km (at $0.80/L)
T/D=$14.70/100km (at $1.40/L)

And the V6 will blow the T/D into the weeds. Yes, even towing if you're prepared to keep the revs up when a big hill approaches.

AND with 80L of ULP and 70L of LPG it has much greater range than an 80L diesel tank.

The post is entitled ""Diesel is economical ??? ROFLMAO""

Which admittedly got my attention, as I stepped from a 5 Litre V8 Holden into a small 2.4 Litre Toyota DIESEL, some 20+ years ago.
The vehicle has since done over 600,000 Klms and been on beaches and over the GRR a few times and to some out of the way places where smart people would not even think of taking a vehicle they lovingly polish and care for, because I don't, I drive it till it fails then replace it.

It has the oil changed a few times a year and has NEVER seen a mechanic since it run out of Toyota new vehicle warranty some 20+ years ago.

I'm sure I could not have done this with a petrol or gas powered vehicle, there is no gas or petrol in most of the places I have stayed, every station in the bush has Diesel, most simply don't have any need for petrol engines.


Then I really have to wonder why ALL (as in EVERY semi-trailer) large trucks and EVERY WA mine-site vehicle ALL use Diesel engines and NOT gas or petrol engines.

Is it only because of the huge torque available at VERRY low engine revs where petrol engine is at very HIGH revs, or is it because they are just more efficient at hauling large loads, eg Caravan on a 4x4..
What's more important when travelling, vehicle performance or bank account ??

Yes, I believe a Diesel is more economical when used for TRAVELLING this wonderful country, however the same vehicle when used as Mums taxi it's probably not an economical vehicle at all!!
Just adds more questions than answers ?

Mainey . . .

Jim


That is alright if you reside in the big smoke. LPG is not quite that cheap in beautiful Katherine.

I have owned both LPG/Petrol and Diesel vehicles. I would have a diesel anyday.

Do some simple maths on the pricing in other than the big smoke.

More power, less cost. I use my vehicle often for towing. Diesel is a far better tow vehicle due to the torque and economy.

If you live in the city - LPG
If you live in the country - Diesel
If you tow - Diesel



Tjilpi

Phew!!!! Got to the end at last. Took a while!!! OR IS IT THE END??? I doubt it!
Ian

diesel well we pay more , get more miles when travelling in safety when touring , thats why i bought the kinder suprise for driving round town . diesel or petrol we still need it and kevin dudd and other govt cronies wont do anything until we dont need it any more

For those that do less real 4x4 driving than they do talking about it and use their Toorak tractor as a daily driver then I suppose the petrol/gas option could be seen as superior. On a recent Easter run to Wonnangatta we left a petrol/gas 80 series in camp for the day as with his poor range it simply wouldn't have made it out. Meanwhile all the diesels drove for another 7 hours & still put less dollars of fuel in at the bowser. On the Madigan crossing the petrols were carrying almost 500L, diesels 300. Extra long range tanks all cost more dollars and that extra weight puts additional strain on all components not to mention relocation of spare wheels but then if one doesn't go far well then it wouldn't matter.
So Jim what's the range of your bus on Gas. 250 to 300 km? That will see you heading to the servo 3 times more often to get your cheap fuel. Your time is obviously not important to you as over the next 200,000 KM you'll spend several days just filling up :-)
The one thing petrol owners always forget to add into the equation is the times they add petrol whether it be to get additional power for towing, climbing hills or because simply in remote areas there is no gas available. Gas users I travel with on trips regularly need to put petrol in but always conveniently forget to mention that in fuel calculations. Funny that but if one doesn't go 4x4ing often or very far from civilization then that wouldn't matter would it Jim?
Cheers Craig..............
HZJ105 (Diesel)

Just skimmed this and I'm surprised no-one (that I noticed) mentioned that LPG systems take up space and can cause hidden costs. I have an r50 pathfinder and to get lpg I have to either lose cabin space or move the spare wheel to an external carrier. The hidden cost is in the carrier which might be $1000-1500 and the heavy-duty suspension (if I didn't already have it) to cover the extra weight behind the rear wheels another $1000-2000. Then there's the reduction in load-carrying as I'm sure an lpg system+fuel isn't light.
I doubt very much an lpg system increases the resale of a vehicle. I would probably steer clear of vehicles with aftermarket lpg systems myself. Perhaps in some bigger, older petrol vehicles it might help resale.
Diesels on the other hand have fantastic resale and this surely needs to be considered in the overall cost equation.

G'day Jim

Just wondering, do you actually use your vehicle for 4wheel driving??...If so how do your figures compare against city driving??

Cheers.......Dave

What a great thread. Enjoyed it immensely.

It's had all the usual " mines bigger than yours ' comments, some interesting facts regarding which engine is best suited to which purpose, and fuel consumption figures for all sorts of engines in different applications ( which will be useful for trip planning ).
Additionally, it's even had an example of memory loss and rudeness.

The main point however is that, it is funny to believe that a diesel is economical - as per the thread title.

As the author of the thread title has explained / shown in his posts, fuel tank capacities, travelling range, servicing / inspection costs, engine wear and tear, fitting costs, fuel availability, etc. are all incidental in this " simple maths " equation.

Silly of us to think it was about anything other than, what is cheapest at the pump, closest to his home/work.

Fishing trip..........more like a japanese whaling fleet supplying restaurants under the guise of scientific research.

I own a 4.2 NA diesel GQ Patrol 1989. My last 4by was also a 1989 GQ Patrol but was dual fuel.
The dual fuel was much cheaper to keep on the road than the diesel even tho it uses about half the fuel. Extra frequency of oil changes, extra capacity of oil as well as the $1.67 pump price in Adelaide today all make the lpg a much better prospect if you want cheaper running costs.Forget all the extra tuning crap some people talk about. Fit an electronic ignition and a decent set of leads and you won't need to touch it for over 50 thou km's.
What i love about the diesel is the 1100kms i can do on a tank. Happy with both cars but the dual fuel is better if you want a cheaper running costs.

We need GTL diesel, using abundant natural gas to create diesel liquid fuel. A much better idea than biodiesel.

I'm still here for that hug Jim

Baz.

My GU patrol petrol gets about 300km to $55 of LPG(80L). Much cheaper than ULP but about the same as a diesel(using 13L/100 as an example). I generally run around town and have a heavy right boot so I enjoy the performance(if you can call it that) of the petrol/LPG. But when I crossed the nullabor, I had to stop at every second servo and it was a pain in the bum.

I did the Border Track and some of Wyperfield NP and did about 398km. I used 72L LPG, all the sub tank (approx 33L) and about half a 20L jerry, overall about 29L/100km. I was putting my foot down on all the dunes and so forth but the 2 diesels that I went with had used not even half a tank and I was almost out of fuel.

Next time I will buy a diesel just for the extra range. My LPG truck is only good for driving around the suburbs and short day/weekend trips.

Moral of the story - Owning a 4x4 and actually 4X4ing is bloody expensive!!!

Dont have the same set up as Jim from _Affordable_Storage_Drawers.aspx? ROTFLMAO


- So you bought a patrol because you wanted a very capable vehicle instead of a courier, idiot ROTFLMAO

- So you bought a station wagon because the kids were more comfortable in the back seat than a duel cab, idiot ROTFLMAO

- So you bought an auto instead of the sports car like 5 speed in the courier, idiot ROTFLMAO

- so you bought a second hand 4by instead of spending 4 times as much on a new vehicle. idiot ROTFLMAO

- God forbid you bought a diesal, idiot ROTFLMAO

Im still trying to flog off my auto petrol terracan which is no longer the best vehicle ever to afford this new god sanctioned setup

These types of posts are usually for the benefit of the poster, to justify their purchase of whatever vehicle they have.

WHY?

You bought what you bought, don't bag others because of what they have bought, it serves no purpose but to antagonise.

Baz.

Have you learnt anything from this post Jim?

You could have quite easily stated how much you liked your vehicle set-up as it suited you perfectly without degrading others for their set-up.

Slightly OT. Jim somewhere in this thread you said something like ...

I cant see the relationship betwen this forum and my business.

I apologise if this isn't excatly what you said, it was a long long way back and I can't find it now.

IMHO there is a direct relationship, for example at one stage I was seriously looking to buy your _Affordable_Storage_Drawers.aspx. Inexpensive and close to what I wanted.

However on this forum IN MY OPINION you have sometimes gotten heated over minor things. On one occassion I even vividly recall, you blasted me when I asked you a question. IMHO I also think you give the image that you always put price over all other considrerations on many topics ( eg this, and the many fridge threads - all fridges are the same comments)

As a result I think " if he is so pedantic over little things like that what would he be like if I had a problem with the drawers" and "Jim apears to put price over all other considerations".

Now I may very well be wrong, and in it's self is irrelevent, you are entitled to your opinion however you do deliberately represent your company every time you make a post ( Logo and all, on all posts), so you can't seperate them.

I hope for your business that I am wrong and I am sure I am, however perceptions are everything in sales and I could not get these thoughts out of my head and I went for other ( more exensive) _Affordable_Storage_Drawers.aspx ( not the big 2). I found you through this forum, and in the end decided not to go with you because of this forum.

Shoot me down if you like, I am just telling you my opinion about your comment.

Some of the rants in this thread are way over the top too:


Thread 57339