HOW CAN WE REDUCE TOWBALL WEIGHT

Submitted: Friday, May 02, 2008 at 20:12
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We just got a real shock with the towball weight of our Coromal Princeton 602.

We were told the van’s towball weight would be between 140kg to 160kg. We have a Land Rover Series 1, towball rating of 150kg. We were hoping it might come in just over, with careful packing. Kitchen is at the front, shower/toilet at rear (not full ensuite). Air-con is forward of the axle. We have relocated the spare wheel to the back of the van. We've two gas bottles in the front boot (one was full, the other three quarters), two water tanks (each 90 litres), situated just to the front the axle, however, one was empty when we had it weighed. Took it along to have hitch put on yesterday and SHOCK HORROR, we weighed in at 320kg. Came home very carefully and very despondent.

We're now considering our options. We obviously will have to upgrade the vehicle but want to move to a Land Rover Series 2 which has a towball weight rating of 250kg. So that’s our magic number.

Our plan is to try to re-distribute the weight as much as we can in the van. Suggestions made to us so far include moving water tanks to the rear of the van, taking out one gas bottle completely, and putting the other in the vehicle. We will also move heavy stuff like golf clubs (total 35 kg) to the back of the vehicle - they were under the bed right over the axle, for the weigh-in.

Compliance plate shows we have tare of 1773, GTM of 1996, and ATM of 2230. (We believe there is 90kg. in the water, about 40kg under the bed and then a scattering of pots, pans and crockery). As we understand it, that allows us to load 457 kg (i.e 2230–1773) into the van. Therefore if we have loaded evenly, with preference to the back, we thought our tow ball weight would have fallen as it should to 234 or lower, remembering it came in at 320!

Has anyone had experience in having to lessen the weight in a Coromal by doing what we are thinking? How much effect does moving water tanks, and any other actions have on the overall towball weight? Does anyone know of anything else we can do to improve the weight situation in the van. Will we come within a “bull’s roar” of what we need to?

Any hints or advice would be greatly appreciated.
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Reply By: Steve - Friday, May 02, 2008 at 20:24

Friday, May 02, 2008 at 20:24
Bunny: Do you mean a Disco I????

I would've thought a Land Rover series I would struggle pulling a 20ft van. Maybe I'm wrong though. Saw a few of those Series Is at Cooma recently.

Mate, I've had a couple of Coromals and know a few others who've also had em. They do tend to be a very front-heavy. More than most brands. One obvious move is, bearing in mind water weighs approx 1kg per L, if you put a couple of Jerries on the back bumper you'd be giving yourself another 40kgs on the rear end. You say 90 kgs water weight?? I'd question that, bearing in mind most tanks are 60 liter (therefore 60kgs full) I'd imagine a Princeton would have two tanks - so check the capacity at a rate of 1kg per Liter and it goes without saying, keep it lightweight in the van boot.

Good luck



AnswerID: 301744

Follow Up By: Bunny - Friday, May 02, 2008 at 21:41

Friday, May 02, 2008 at 21:41
The capacity of our Disco 1 in the book is rated to pull 3,500 kg, so we do have enough power.
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Follow Up By: Steve - Saturday, May 03, 2008 at 13:55

Saturday, May 03, 2008 at 13:55
most of the big 4x4s have a 3500 tow limit. I don't think there's a problem with towing your van with that weight limit (I've had the same issue with a Disco and a LC100) it's just that when you're climbing some of those l-o-n-g hills, don't expect to do it in 4th gear or much above 60 kph. I think the 3500 weight limit refers to what the chassis will stand rather than what speed or what ease you engine will pull the van.
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Reply By: Member - Duncs - Friday, May 02, 2008 at 20:27

Friday, May 02, 2008 at 20:27
I am no expert, in fact I have no experience in this area what so ever, but to me it seems you have thought of all of the commonsense things.

A few years ago we got a new truck at work. It was big and flash, very comfortable and seemed to go and handle really well.

Then it rained. It was scary, on more than one occasion it just understeered right through a round about. The steering came back under braking but it was alarming to say the least.

It was reported and the mechanics checked it out. They did not tell us what they did but the difference was huge. A little heavier on the steering but not that you would complain about but it turned in under any conditions really well.

I was talking to one of the spanner men a few months later. It seem they reposiotioned the couter weight. The thing has a large iron block hung just behing the rear axle to balance the truck for the load we carry. By moving this forward, not more than about 150mm the problem was solved.

I know it would take from your overall carrying capacity but maybe some lead ballast at the back of the van would help.

Good luck with it
Duncs
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Follow Up By: Nomadic Navara - Saturday, May 03, 2008 at 14:27

Saturday, May 03, 2008 at 14:27
Duncs

That little exercise is similar to the addition of a WDH when towing a caravan. The extra weight placed back on the front wheels makes a big difference to steering and braking.

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Reply By: The Geriatric Gypsies - Friday, May 02, 2008 at 20:27

Friday, May 02, 2008 at 20:27
goodday bunny
we have the 651 and when we weighed up fully loade the van went 2440kg all up 40kg overand ball weight went 260kg
where are you would be interested to see how you are packedand what could be moved around
we have 3water tanks 1 over th axle 1 in front and 1 behind and the van is our home
it sounds like you need to cull some more unnecessary objects (we only take the clubs if we are going near a course

steve
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Reply By: Vivid Adventures - Friday, May 02, 2008 at 20:35

Friday, May 02, 2008 at 20:35
You wouldn't be the first one.

Every kg moved behind the axle (assuming it is single) should reduce the towball weight by that much.

Moving your water tanks will help.

At present half of the weight of the water tanks and their water (1 litre=1 kg) is going on the tow ball.

On my calculations moving the water tanks to the back when they're empty reduces the load on the ball by 45 or 50 kg, and then with 100 litres of water in them there you'll have your ball weight back to the regulation 150. Of course when the tanks empty you're putting more weight back on the ball...

The manufacturers pay scant attention to it, and the dealers less unless you are paying them to do work on it, when they suddenly take interest.

Get the dealer to help you work out the solution, and if he can't prove it to you go to a different dealer or caravan service outlet. Don't leave the joint before his scales show a ball weight under 150 - perhaps well under... considering the water situation. Make sure you know exactly how much is in those tanks too - it makes a hell of a difference.

If you want to work it out yourself, get out the bathroom scales and experiment... it is just like kids in the playground on the see-saw... nothing complicated at all.
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Follow Up By: Bunny - Friday, May 02, 2008 at 20:38

Friday, May 02, 2008 at 20:38
Sorry, forgot to mention, we have dual-axle van.
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Follow Up By: Vivid Adventures - Friday, May 02, 2008 at 20:42

Friday, May 02, 2008 at 20:42
It doesn't change a lot, but if you have two 90 litre tanks fore moving them aft is going to probably fix your problem when they have a significant amount of water in them depending on where exactly those tanks end up.

As I say, make it the dealer's problem and ask them to explain the solution to you, and the outcome that will be achieved, and then ensure they do a good job of the work.

I've seen the off water tank that has dropped out of a van on the road... they aren't much use for carrying water after that ;-)
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Follow Up By: Bunny - Friday, May 02, 2008 at 20:51

Friday, May 02, 2008 at 20:51
Thanks for that.....we'll certainly take your advice.

Does our logic about the weights make sense to you - that we should be able to add up to 457kg (approx) and have the towball weight come in at no more than 234, but we've ended up with 320, that's why we're confused.
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Follow Up By: Vivid Adventures - Friday, May 02, 2008 at 20:56

Friday, May 02, 2008 at 20:56
I can't follow that logic.

234 is the difference between the ATM and GTM... god knows how that relates to the tow ball weight.

Get out a two planks and the bathroom scales.

Use one plank as the axle, the scales as the tow ball and the other plank (flat) as the van.
The get 1 litre milk cartons (full) and put them in various places and watch the effect on the scales...

You can have a grossly overloaded van and still have a low ball weight if it is all nicely loaded.
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Follow Up By: Bunny - Friday, May 02, 2008 at 21:03

Friday, May 02, 2008 at 21:03
We're looking at the Hayman Reece product guide 2008 - it quotes, "to determine the ball weight, take the GTM from the ATM".
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Follow Up By: Member - Doug T (FNQ) - Friday, May 02, 2008 at 21:54

Friday, May 02, 2008 at 21:54
Every kg moved behind the axle is just one step closer to having a swaying Van ,

.
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Follow Up By: kym111 - Friday, May 02, 2008 at 22:09

Friday, May 02, 2008 at 22:09
I'm with Doug T on this one. I was taught years ago that too much weight to the rear will cause sway. Play around with the packing until you've got the weight right without the sway.
You also might need to compromise on some of the things you pack!
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Follow Up By: Vivid Adventures - Friday, May 02, 2008 at 22:41

Friday, May 02, 2008 at 22:41
And too much weight up front can cause your vehicle to loose control...

somewhere there's a balance to be had, and the tow vehicle's capability and hitch are important too...

but this van is clearly front-loaded... probably manufactured that way based on van manufacturer's lack of intellectual honesty.

I am not advocating zero or -ve ball weight... and I am advocating taking it to someone with the know-how and giving them the outcome sought - a safe, legal towing set up given the vehicle.

I don't think Bunny is that far from the outcome sought.
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Follow Up By: Nomadic Navara - Saturday, May 03, 2008 at 14:47

Saturday, May 03, 2008 at 14:47
Too much weight up front does not necessarily cause your vehicle to loose control. However not enough weight will certainly do so. You should have at least 200 kg on the ball. Your D1 will certainly carry that weight OK with the use of WDH. It's just that the use of WDH does not reduce the ball weight - it just distributes it evenly between the two axles of your tug. The big problem is the ball weight set by Land Rover is not as high as it could be (provided you use WDH) but LR refuse to increase the limit. The fact is you can not tow your van with sufficient ball weight legally with your D1. I believe the D1 is capable of a much higher toe ball weight but the law listens to LR.

Ihave been through the same situation as you and ended up getting a D2 and then a newer van with a lighter ball weight (I could not get the ball weight of the previous van down below 16%.)

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Reply By: Member - Clive G (NZ) - Friday, May 02, 2008 at 20:54

Friday, May 02, 2008 at 20:54
Bunny.
While I agree with the comments above there is one thing you should consider. Was the 320kg ball weight claimed actually correct? Seems to be very high for a Series 1 without you noticing its rear end sagging somewhat. If the Rover has Stdsuspension (or close to it) and the whole outfit has a reasonably straight and level appearance then I wouldn’t get overly excited about it. Might pay to get another opinion on the actual ball weight before starting on a drastic rebuild.
CliveG, NZ.
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Follow Up By: Vivid Adventures - Friday, May 02, 2008 at 21:01

Friday, May 02, 2008 at 21:01
I can't see how the vehicle it was connected to says anything about what the ball weight is...

and a large percentage - perhaps the larger percentage of vans on the road are poorly loaded and have higher ball weights than they should.

Just look at all those Toyota Camrys and Avalons and Commodes and Falcones dragging their arses around...

The ball weight is easily measured. Any respectable caravan service outfit should be set up to do it properly... to measure it, not just to make a "claim" about it.
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Follow Up By: Bunny - Friday, May 02, 2008 at 21:10

Friday, May 02, 2008 at 21:10
We were weighed at a reputable caravan towball place with digital scales. We did wonder at one stage whether it was correct or not, because the whole set up is reasonably level. We have standard suspension and the car is in good shape. We're still confused.
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Follow Up By: Member - Clive G (NZ) - Friday, May 02, 2008 at 21:27

Friday, May 02, 2008 at 21:27
Sorry but I don’t follow your reply. The vehicle the van is attached to has everything to do with it. If Bunny had a vehicle with ball rating of over 320kg then he wouldn’t have put up the post in first place, would he??

You are correct about a lot of vehicles on the road in an over loaded condition, though I did mention a level appearance which is somewhat different to “dragging their ass on the ground”

No the ball weight is not hard to measure, but remember Bunny took it to the Hitch people for a hitch fitting and I guess a measuring. I suspect that they didn’t get Bunny to do it him- her self but told him-her what they claimed to see.
Cheers, CliveG, NZ.

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Follow Up By: Bunny - Friday, May 02, 2008 at 21:36

Friday, May 02, 2008 at 21:36
It's probably the most reputable towbar place in Brisbane, and we actually did see the digital read out. The guy also jumped on the back - he weighed 100 kg and the reading dropped by 70.
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Follow Up By: Member - Graham H (QLD) - Friday, May 02, 2008 at 21:41

Friday, May 02, 2008 at 21:41
I would suggest you take it to a weighbridge and weigh it properly.
Just put the jockey wheel on the scales first and get that weight with it disconnected from the car.
Then hook it up and pull it forward so the car is off the scales Thats the GTM. Back it up and disconnect it again and weigh the whole thing Thats the ATM.

What is your car legally allowed to tow. You might find you actually exceed the cars legal capacity in more ways than one.
Ok till something goes wrong and an assesor runs it over a weighbridge.
Result rather empty pockets.
I had a 3.0 auto Patrol and bought a van which had an ATM of 2564kg Which is in excess of the 2500kg limit for that car.
Had to buy a Croozer to tow it and stay legal.
Worth doing the exercize I think $20 well spent. My Roadstar has a ball weight of 315 KG correctly loaded Specs say 163kg HA HA
JUst spent $500 getting it recertified from 2564 KG ATM to 2800 KG without having to alter anything.
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Follow Up By: Member - Graham H (QLD) - Friday, May 02, 2008 at 21:44

Friday, May 02, 2008 at 21:44
Probaly should have said use a jack right at the towball to measure it accurately A Trailermate is good
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Follow Up By: Bunny - Friday, May 02, 2008 at 21:54

Friday, May 02, 2008 at 21:54
Thanks for the comments - it does have the capacity to pull 3,500 kg as it's a V8.

We had a Hayman Reece plate which rated our vehicle to 120kg but after talking to Hayman Reece, they were prepared to offer a new tag taking it to 150kg which is what is in the car manual.

We too are trying to be legal, but we understand when we read between the lines of some articles we have read, that obviously the towball capacity quoted on vehicles is not necessarily established by engineers and that marketers and other have some input. (That was a comment we read in the Caravan and Motorhome monthly magazine).

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Reply By: Member - Roger B (VIC) - Friday, May 02, 2008 at 21:30

Friday, May 02, 2008 at 21:30
Try this Bunny.
.

You can do it by using ordinary bathroom scales using the following method from Hayman Reese:.




To find the towball weight

1. Place your bathroom scales and a brick or paver(s) the same thickness 900mm apart.

2. Place piece of pipe on top of both the scales and the brick and rest a strong plank at least 1200mm across them. Zero the scales.

3. Rest the jockey wheel on the plank 300mm from the brick as shown above.

4. Multiply the scale reading by 3 to obtain the towball weight. NB. The caravan should be level and ideally fully loaded with water in the tank(s)
AnswerID: 301763

Reply By: A J - Friday, May 02, 2008 at 21:32

Friday, May 02, 2008 at 21:32
Bunny - when transferring the water tank to the rear of the van you have to remember the levers that we learnt about in science when we went to school all those years ago.

The best way to describe it is with two children on a see saw. If you place the 10 stone child one unit away from the axis and the other 2 stone child five units away from the axis you have a balance and so equal downward pressure. So if the tank was originally four units from the axis point in your van and you shifted it two units behind the axis point you do not get the same weight reduction.


A J
AnswerID: 301764

Follow Up By: Bunny - Friday, May 02, 2008 at 21:39

Friday, May 02, 2008 at 21:39
The water tanks are presently just forward on the axle, so we probably do have the capacity to position them a little further back down the van to improve the situation.

Thanks to everyone who has replied - all your comments are very much appreciated.
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Reply By: Member - Clive G (NZ) - Friday, May 02, 2008 at 21:37

Friday, May 02, 2008 at 21:37
Bunny.
If you have a Series 1 with Std suspension and it stays reasonably level then I find it difficult to believe that there is 320kg on the ball, but I may well be wrong.
I reckon you should definitely get a re weigh at another place as step one.
CliveG, NZ.
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Follow Up By: Bunny - Friday, May 02, 2008 at 21:43

Friday, May 02, 2008 at 21:43
we tend to agree with you Clive - much better to do that before we embark on any drastic measures.
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Reply By: Gronk - Saturday, May 03, 2008 at 00:54

Saturday, May 03, 2008 at 00:54
Don't forget that if a trailer weighs 2000kg then the towball weight should be approx 200kg......the widely accepted 10% rule...although with a dual axle trailer you may be able to get away with a bit less..

320kg ?? are there any normal 4x4's able to legally tow that sort of ball weight ??
AnswerID: 301787

Follow Up By: Bunny - Saturday, May 03, 2008 at 06:07

Saturday, May 03, 2008 at 06:07
We're told a Land Cruiser and Nissan Patrol (certain models and makes) would take a towball weight of 350.
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Reply By: Bunny - Saturday, May 03, 2008 at 06:58

Saturday, May 03, 2008 at 06:58
TO ALL OF YOU WHO HAVE REPLIED AND OFFERED SUGGESTIONS, MANY THANKS FROM BUNNY AND DAF. THIS IS OUR FIRST EXPERIENCE WITH THE FORUM (AND WITH CARAVANNING, IF YOU HAVEN'T ALREADY GUESSED!) AND WE ARE REALLY IMPRESSED WITH THE CONSIDERATION AND HELPFULLNESS OF YOU ALL - WE'RE GUESSING THIS IS WHAT IT WILL BE LIKE ON THE ROAD, (IF AND WHEN WE EVENTUALLY GET THERE %$#$@#$@)

WE WILL LET YOU ALL KNOW THE OUTCOME - WE ARE OFF TO COROMAL TODAY TO GET THE "LOWDOWN" FROM THEM AND HOPEFULLY RECTIFY/CLARIFY THE WHOLE SITUATION.
AnswerID: 301794

Follow Up By: Member - Roscoe ET (QLD) - Saturday, May 03, 2008 at 07:41

Saturday, May 03, 2008 at 07:41
Bunny,

Just read your thread. My next door neighbour has a disco 1, same problem you have found the vehicle is rated at 3500kg but the towball weight is only 150kg. He has a single axle van and found the towball weight to be around 250kg from memory. Unfortunately he's left on his trip to WA so I can't get him to give you advise on what he did but he did talk to me about the whole issue as I do a fair bit of towing.

He spoke with Landrover and found that the towbar is only rated to safely carry 150kg at the ball. I was at his place when he hooked up the van and the rear suspension hardly moved so clearly the suspension is strong enough to carry a heavy load and the vehicle is rated to pull 3500kg.

To resolve the issue and from what I understand in accordance with advice he received from landrover he simply replaced the original towbar with a heavier one from hayman reece.

Maybe you need to talk to landrover as well.

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Reply By: Darren W - Saturday, May 03, 2008 at 08:53

Saturday, May 03, 2008 at 08:53
I'd thought I'd post my experience on ball weights...

I have a disco1 and a Kaymar rear step which has a tow hich. The max ball weight 120kg. All OK till I bought a caravan. It was a Roma dual axel and ATM-GTM was 190kg.

Didn't release possible legal issue until safter the first lap of OZ. Note I had a haymen reece weight distribution hitch and the van towed very well.

I'm paranoid about legal issues with insurance and thought they would look at this if I had to make a claim.

First things first , the car manual. There's a difference in the wording in the UK owner manual which I believe says max ball wieght 250kg, the oz version talks about a recommended max of 150kg. Note it also talks about a Max rear axle loading so you need to take that into account also. I had a lawyer friend read over the relevant sections and his interpretation was yes you can go more than 150Kg just not above the rear axle loading.

Next problem was the tow hitch , if it says 120kg and you load more its illegal. Rang around a few places and all tow hitches said max ball weight of 150kg.... except ARB the hitch they sell is plated 200kg.

Replaced the KMAR with the old bumper and fitted the ARB hitch.

So in summary hitch now is rated to 200kg and as long as I don't overload rear axle I'm legal.
Note I did actually weight the van and the ball weight empty was more like 280kg , van was empty. There is no way it was ever 190kg when it left the factory. Moved water tanks around , added dual spare wheels, still above 200kg. Van now sold and looking for something new...

Darren



AnswerID: 301804

Follow Up By: Nomadic Navara - Saturday, May 03, 2008 at 15:38

Saturday, May 03, 2008 at 15:38
Quote - "Note I did actually weight the van and the ball weight empty was more like 280kg , van was empty. There is no way it was ever 190kg when it left the factory."

That is because Ball Weight never equals ATM - GTM. The ATM & GTM are legal limits and you will rarely see these figures when you place a van on a weigh bridge. When you take delivery of your van the ball weight is the tare weight less the axle weight, it probably will never be the same weight again after you start adding things to your van. The ATM & GTM two figures are legal limits that you are not legally permitted to exceed at any time when you are towing your van. When talking about your van's loading you should be talking about aggregate weight and axle (or trailer weight.)

The ball can only ever equal if you can actually load your van to exactly equal the ATM and GTM figures. However if you do this there will probably be too little ball weight on your tug. Thus if you are concerned with safety I stand by my first sentence.

2nd thing - the maximum permitted ball weight is the LESSER of the manufacturers specification and the specification on the compliance plate on the tow bar. In the first case you were limited by the 120 kg limit on the plate on the tow bar. The current situation is you are limited by Land Rover's 150 kg limit.

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Reply By: Gronk - Saturday, May 03, 2008 at 10:06

Saturday, May 03, 2008 at 10:06
I think this is a problem with a lot of trailer manufacturers ( not only caravans ) who seem to be blatantly understating ball weights..

I think they should be made to state ( enforcable rule ) dry and wet weights of their " finished " trailers.. not some "approx" weight configured 3/4 of the way thru the assembly line !!

Because of the length of the drawbar and the physics of pivot points etc, you have to put a lot of load on the rear to get load off the ball..
AnswerID: 301812

Follow Up By: Steve - Saturday, May 03, 2008 at 13:51

Saturday, May 03, 2008 at 13:51
spot on mate

they give these "recommendations" to suit their own ends (and arses) in case any legal issues come up. They're of little help to the owner.

The wife would never put anything in the washing machine if she took notice of the "care label" on the garment. They all say "dry clean only" these days.

It's all a cop-out and the manufacturers shirking their responsibilities. 150 kgs is a ridiculous limit to put on a Disco. I'm sure it has ben upgraded on the later models.
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Follow Up By: Nomadic Navara - Saturday, May 03, 2008 at 16:00

Saturday, May 03, 2008 at 16:00
One thing you have got to watch with van manufacturers is they weigh their first one off the line for a certain model. This could be a full height twin bed version. They then produce a double bed version and lengthen it so you can get around the end of the bed - comes delivered with the same tare weight. They then build a pop-top, double bed version - heavier again and no reweigh and so same tare weight on the compliance plate. Then I get mine with a battery system and solar panel - same tare, ATM & GTM on the compliance plate - result it is so overweight I only have a load allowance of around 100 kg. Don't do as I did and run it for 12 months before you weigh the van - be warned.

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Follow Up By: Steve - Saturday, May 03, 2008 at 18:06

Saturday, May 03, 2008 at 18:06
....and that's before they put the awning on


is that what they actually do Pete? Sounds a bit haphazard ro base the whole model off one particular spec - but nothing would surprise, would it?
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Follow Up By: Nomadic Navara - Saturday, May 03, 2008 at 18:15

Saturday, May 03, 2008 at 18:15
Some manufacturers certainly don't weigh many of their vans - only the first of each model. My Spaceland came out around 200 kg heavier than the plated and registered tare weight. Some like Roadstar have a bridge and weigh every van.

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Reply By: Member - Olcoolone (S.A) - Saturday, May 03, 2008 at 11:36

Saturday, May 03, 2008 at 11:36
I would get a lighter tow ball.....suggest alluminium.
AnswerID: 301823

Follow Up By: Gronk - Saturday, May 03, 2008 at 11:59

Saturday, May 03, 2008 at 11:59
Why not an axle front and rear of the van ( like a truck dog ) then you have no towball weight !!!!!!
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Follow Up By: Nomadic Navara - Saturday, May 03, 2008 at 17:03

Saturday, May 03, 2008 at 17:03
Or you can try the suggestions inthis link

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Reply By: Nomadic Navara - Saturday, May 03, 2008 at 17:31

Saturday, May 03, 2008 at 17:31
Quote - "We were told the van’s towball weight would be between 140kg to 160kg."

The dealer seemed to be aware that you were limited to 150 kg ball weight. Is this correct? Can you prove the promise of 140 to 160 kg ball weight? If so then you have them on toast. They have sold you goods that are not fit for the purpose you described to them. The next question to ask is - do you wish to keep the van? If you wish to try to get another that is suitable for your Disco and return the present one for a refund.

Do you know what the ball weight is empty? The current loaded ball weight limits you to the big Toyotas or Patrols. If you can get it down below 300 kg then some of the latest twin cab utes will fit the bill.

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Follow Up By: Bunny - Monday, May 05, 2008 at 20:36

Monday, May 05, 2008 at 20:36
Although we didn't specify it previously, we actually purchased a second hand van and referred back to the original dealer for details. So we really have no claim back on the manufacturer's agent.

Seeing as we had a few comments about the 90 litre tanks being excessive (although that's what we were told when we purchased the van) we have actually found we have 2 60 litre tanks and with 3/4 full, so we still had 90 litres of water on board when weighted.

Our impression from what we read is that if we move the water tanks back plus take out a gas bottle, the 90 kg. behind the rear axles will improve the situation, but won't get us down to the 150 we presently have on the Disco 1.

Seems like we need to upgrade to a Series Two or trade the van in for a rear kitcheon one.

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