Auto compared to Manual

Submitted: Tuesday, May 13, 2008 at 14:41
ThreadID: 57565 Views:1806 Replies:13 FollowUps:10
This Thread has been Archived
Hi All

On a previous thread, some one was asking the benifits of Automatic
compared to Manual, with 4x4-s, one of the replys was that Manuals
have better engine brakeing capacity on steep grades ect when towing, I was wondering why cant you use the T-Bar on the Autos
to drop it down to 1st or 2nd gear on a steep grade, for engine
brakeing, I havent towed Caravans with an Automatic as yet, but
will be buying a Automatic Nissan Patrol in the near future, and
would appreciate your input.

Cheers
Daza
Back Expand Un-Read 0 Moderator

Reply By: Member - David P (VIC) - Tuesday, May 13, 2008 at 15:02

Tuesday, May 13, 2008 at 15:02
All I know is that if it has a dual-mass flywheel don't touch it!!!.....silverback
AnswerID: 303586

Reply By: Member - David P (VIC) - Tuesday, May 13, 2008 at 15:09

Tuesday, May 13, 2008 at 15:09
All I know is that with regard to manual vehicles , if it has a dual-mass flywheel , don't touch it If your likely to go anywhere seriously remote!!....silverback
AnswerID: 303587

Follow Up By: Member - David P (VIC) - Tuesday, May 13, 2008 at 15:12

Tuesday, May 13, 2008 at 15:12
oops, didn't think it went first time. This site is realy slow at times.
0
FollowupID: 569713

Follow Up By: Member - Vince B (NSW) - Tuesday, May 13, 2008 at 15:15

Tuesday, May 13, 2008 at 15:15
Hi Dave.
I am interested to know what the problem is with dual mass flywheel.
Thanks.
Vince
0
FollowupID: 569714

Follow Up By: Member - David P (VIC) - Tuesday, May 13, 2008 at 17:38

Tuesday, May 13, 2008 at 17:38
Hi Vince, I don't know if Nissan still do it but its a two piece flywheel with a silicone substance between the two concentric pieces that make up the flywheel, the purpose being it seems to dampen out certain frequency which they consider unpleasant. The consequence is that it will fail at some time the indication being a clutch take-up closer to the firewall to the point that the clutch wont clear at all, which means cranking in 1st gear and using it as a crash-box. In other words the clutch is permanently engaged........lifespan of flywheel unknown....1000s to replace....now lets see....where could we get stranded?....not remote area friendly...cheers....silverback
0
FollowupID: 569755

Follow Up By: Member - Captain (WA) - Tuesday, May 13, 2008 at 22:34

Tuesday, May 13, 2008 at 22:34
Not sure where you get your info from Dave - I have had a flywheel failure on my Nissan dual mass flywheel and it was NOTHING like you have described.

What happens when the fluid leaks out past the seals is that the flywheel is no longer balanced and the engine idles extremely rough - I thought I had a broken engine mount. However, blip the throttle and the remaining fluid self-balances and all is fine - until you turn the engine off.

I drove my vehicle with no problems - clutch works perfectly and NO difference in take-up point. But it needs to be repaired as the vibration when starting was horrific.

The actual flywheel is very solidly constructed and there is virtually zero chance of it disintegrating.
Image Could Not Be Found
Inspection of the removed flywheel showed all was fine, with the one exception of a fluid leak where the two "halfs" are pinned together - you may be able to make out the fluid leak from the pins in the pic. Unfortunately this cannot be repaired so $2,600 later all was good again :(

Cheers

Captain
Its not what you drive, but how you drive it!
LC 200 + AOR Quantum

Member
My Profile  My Blog  My Position  Send Message
Classifieds: AGM battery 120 a.hr (2 available)

0
FollowupID: 569814

Follow Up By: Member - David P (VIC) - Wednesday, May 14, 2008 at 09:25

Wednesday, May 14, 2008 at 09:25
Our Nissan 4.2NA s have both failed. Had great difficulty and was VERY expensive to fix. Made automatics a more reliable choice and with actual LOWER operational life expense. It simply makes no sense to have a simple manual transmission and then make it more complex and expensive to fix. Imagine repairing your worn out clutch without replacing a very expensive flywheel at the same time. That makes it more expensive to replace a clutch than overhaul an auto when the main point of a manual is the cheap op cost due to its simplicity. I have always in the past preferred a manual for the economic benefits, but in this case wouldn't have a bar of one with a dual mass flywheel. its a long term potentially expensive choice......but that's just my opinion...cheers ...silverback
0
FollowupID: 569854

Reply By: Philip A - Tuesday, May 13, 2008 at 15:54

Tuesday, May 13, 2008 at 15:54
Autos usually have a much higher low low , as the torque converter provides a lot of torque multiplication in low low for acceleration.
In general autos do not work well with really low gearing, as they change into top very quickly and sharply.

In my Range Rover 3.9 , I think the low low is about 30:1 vs the manual at 40:1. The older autos also do not lock the TC in low low, although some newer ones do.
This means that autos tend to run away much more than a manual, however in these days of "Hill descent" or the numerous other similar systems, it doesn't matter so much. I do not have any electronic help, but disc brakes can also be much easier modulated than old drums.

In every other situation an auto is far superior. In sand you do not have to worry about changing gear, as power continues to be applied on gearchange so you do not stop. At rock steps, the TC absorbs the shock as you hit a step.
Regards Philip A
AnswerID: 303593

Reply By: MrBitchi (QLD) - Tuesday, May 13, 2008 at 15:58

Tuesday, May 13, 2008 at 15:58
Depends a bit on the type of auto. The ones with "tiptronic" or "sports" mode are very good as when you select a lower gear it changes down if at all possible, and will hold that gear, just like a manual. The standard auto's can be a bit reluctant to change down.

I have both types' a '95 model Statesman 4 speed auto and a Pajero NM with sports mode. The Paj can be driven like a manual but the Statesman's transmission is a dinosaur by comparison.

When going down steep descents in the Paj, 4L 1st gear will accommodate most situations but you do tend to have to feather the brakes a bit, so yes, a diesel manual is generally better down STEEP hills, especially when towing, although a properly sorted brake package on the trailer should fix most problems.

In every other conceivable situation the Paj auto is superior to a manual, IMHO.
AnswerID: 303596

Follow Up By: Member - Serg (VIC) - Friday, May 16, 2008 at 15:52

Friday, May 16, 2008 at 15:52
“will hold that gear, just like a manual”

In most situation it will not. In each and every AT what I have tried (and I specifically check this particular point) there is “idiot proof” “feature” that kick tranny to 2-nd once car hit 40 km/hr or so. There is no remedy, but press break. Besides noise what AT produces when it “breaks” at 30 km/hr is absolutely horrible. Autos completely sux in breaking department.
0
FollowupID: 570227

Follow Up By: MrBitchi (QLD) - Friday, May 16, 2008 at 16:13

Friday, May 16, 2008 at 16:13
You obviously haven't driven a late model Pajero. It WILL hold the gear. It will NOT change up.
0
FollowupID: 570234

Follow Up By: Member - Serg (VIC) - Friday, May 16, 2008 at 16:21

Friday, May 16, 2008 at 16:21
No I did not. But I have driven latest “sequential-sport-shift” 380 and it does shift up. Are you talking about low-range or high-one? In low it probably has much more tolerance because too much oil to stir and to many cogs to spin. But I bet if you manage to make 5000 rpm from engine, auto will shift.

Serg
0
FollowupID: 570237

Follow Up By: MrBitchi (QLD) - Friday, May 16, 2008 at 16:34

Friday, May 16, 2008 at 16:34
In manual mode the engine will rev to the redline and NOT change up. Have done this accidentally in both low and high range. Sometimes I forget I'm in manual mode (much embarrassment ;-PP )
0
FollowupID: 570239

Reply By: Sand Man (SA) - Tuesday, May 13, 2008 at 15:59

Tuesday, May 13, 2008 at 15:59
You can drop down to 1st gear, low range, but the idle speed plus I think a bit of slippage from the torque converter doesn't always allow the engine breaking to overcome the mass weight of the vehicle.

It's not a major issue, just requires you to sometimes "ride the brake" which I am none too keen on, but have no choice, as mine is an auto.

On the plus side, you do not need to be experienced in "stall starting" going up a steep gradient, so that is an advantage over the manual transmission.

All in all, the auto is not an adverse choice. Go for it mate.

Bill.
Bill


I'm diagonally parked in a parallel Universe!

Member
My Profile  My Blog  My Position  Send Message

AnswerID: 303597

Reply By: Member - Tessa (NSW) - Tuesday, May 13, 2008 at 16:41

Tuesday, May 13, 2008 at 16:41
Daza
My experience confirms what has been said above. In addition, you will be surprised with the effect on engine breaking in an auto when you turn off the air con! It can make the difference between needing an occasional feather of the brakes and none at all. having the air on keeps the engine revving slightly faster. The other thing that comes to mind when towing down a steep slope is the use of the manual control on the trailer electric brakes (if fitted of course). A gentle touch on that can take a load off the engine braking when required. Just be careful not to lock the trailer brakes up.

tessa
AnswerID: 303604

Follow Up By: Member - David P (VIC) - Tuesday, May 13, 2008 at 20:11

Tuesday, May 13, 2008 at 20:11
and don't forget a touch of hand brake if its say a rock ledge your creeping over.....silverback
0
FollowupID: 569780

Reply By: Angler - Tuesday, May 13, 2008 at 20:58

Tuesday, May 13, 2008 at 20:58
I find one of the big advantages is I don't have to change gears, the box does it for me. I remember once I was traveling with another couple of blokes and they were in a manual V6 paj. The trip was to the cape and as many know there are big mobs of sandy patches in most of the crossings that require the experienced driver to slow and select about second gear. When we arrived Bamaga the bloke driving the paj commented his arm was suffering because of the many gear changes. On the other hand I hardly changes at all and let the auto do all the work for me. The engine kept spinning at about 2000rpm most of the time and the auto took up the slack without any problems.
Everyone knows the auto is far superior in sand compared to a manual. I for one will never go back to a manual. My last three 4WD's were auto as is the family runabout.

Pooley
AnswerID: 303663

Reply By: Member - Richard K (NSW) - Wednesday, May 14, 2008 at 08:43

Wednesday, May 14, 2008 at 08:43
My Prado TD Auto goes down steep hills in 1st low a little too quick for my liking so I have to use the brakes..always worried on long descents if I'll have brakes by the bottom but so far so good!

What is more of a problem is a moderate downhill where 1st low is too low and slow (unless I race the engine down the hill) but if I put it into 2nd low or 1st high the car wants to shoot off at a great rate!

Downhills are the only time I wished I was in a manual. For the rest of the time (99.8%) I reckon the auto box rules the roost.

Cheers and beers
Rich
AnswerID: 303714

Reply By: Robin Miller - Wednesday, May 14, 2008 at 10:33

Wednesday, May 14, 2008 at 10:33
Hi Daza

Most of these things like auto/manual don't really matter when it doesn't really count.

And so these things need to be evaluated at the limits.

In the case of holding in lower gear with an auto many cars can do this but will still upchange into disaster when the engine revs reach there limit and this is often beyond your control.
Patrol 5 speed auto does this - so check situation with car your thinking of.

Another "sleeper" issue to watch, is the ease of which foot slips
from brake to accel under adverse conditions.
Robin Miller

Member
My Profile  Send Message

AnswerID: 303723

Reply By: Best Off Road - Wednesday, May 14, 2008 at 13:40

Wednesday, May 14, 2008 at 13:40
Daza,

I've had 4 fourby's.

First two manual, third one auto and the current one manual.

IMHO auto wins hands down as a tow vehicle and for off road. With modern braking systems, the issue of engine braking is so neglible as to be irrelevant.

You may well ask why did I buy a manual this time?

The Salesman did a "Don Corleone" on me, he made me an offer I couldn't refuse LOL.

Jim.

AnswerID: 303737

Reply By: kev.h - Friday, May 16, 2008 at 12:59

Friday, May 16, 2008 at 12:59
Hi Daza
only just read your post if you do buy the auto nissan send us an email -kev doth atbigpond dotcom- i have a wiring diagram for a locker for your torque converter which which allowes you to decend hills like a manual
easy it install works a treat
Regards Kev -
AnswerID: 304133

Reply By: Member - Serg (VIC) - Friday, May 16, 2008 at 16:10

Friday, May 16, 2008 at 16:10
All my cars manual and I will not go to auto as long as my left hand and leg function normally. Reason is incredibly simple – I have full control what I am doing and I am fully in charge. I am checking any auto that I can put my hands on and so far I have not find anything what could convince me to switch. But I guess it is personal preferences and for some (in fact vast majority) auto is far superior. Everyone entitles on own opinion, I guess.

Cheers
Serg
AnswerID: 304167

Reply By: Member -Dodger - Friday, May 16, 2008 at 17:25

Friday, May 16, 2008 at 17:25
I have a 4.2td Patrol and of course it's manual. Er you can't get a Gu 4.2 in auto. However I prefer manuals but if I lived in the city then an auto would be my choice for a new bus.
I used to have a handle on life, but it broke.

Cheers Dodg.

Lifetime Member
My Profile  Send Message

AnswerID: 304182

Sponsored Links

Popular Products (14)