gen vs batt chg

Submitted: Tuesday, May 13, 2008 at 14:44
ThreadID: 57566 Views:3264 Replies:8 FollowUps:37
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I dont konw if this is a blog or forum????
I was thinking of getting a generator?
I have checked out all talks about which generator I need (Honda eu10i) but then I thought what about a battery charger?
I have a duel Batt system, second batt a deep cycyle. I have run my engle 57ltre fridge,freez on it with a little running around for 5 days. A little lighting at night (not much, rely on campfire and torch if moving about). I run a laptop through a 600/300 inverter from crank batt.
Now my problem is which do I purchase, a 10i or a honda/bosch 12v/55amp charger at $ arround $800.
Help??
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Reply By: Member - Troll 81 (QLD) - Tuesday, May 13, 2008 at 14:49

Tuesday, May 13, 2008 at 14:49
The Honda eu10i comes with a build in charger. I am not sure how good it is but I have that model and I use a 3 stage charger with the generator
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Follow Up By: Nomadic Navara - Tuesday, May 13, 2008 at 16:20

Tuesday, May 13, 2008 at 16:20
To see how good the 12 V output from these portable generators is read thisSite Link

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Follow Up By: Member - Troll 81 (QLD) - Tuesday, May 13, 2008 at 16:26

Tuesday, May 13, 2008 at 16:26
The eu10i puts out 8 amps as per their website
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Follow Up By: Member - Olcoolone (S.A) - Tuesday, May 13, 2008 at 16:46

Tuesday, May 13, 2008 at 16:46
The Honda generators put out 12 volts, not 13+ volts needed to charge a battery.

Regards Richard
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Follow Up By: Member - Troll 81 (QLD) - Tuesday, May 13, 2008 at 16:54

Tuesday, May 13, 2008 at 16:54
Interesting are you 100% sure about this? why would they call it a charger then?

I might crank mine up tonight and see what happens.
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Follow Up By: Member - Mike DID - Tuesday, May 13, 2008 at 16:56

Tuesday, May 13, 2008 at 16:56
The "12 volt DC" output from ANY of these portable generators is anything but 12 volts DC. It isn't DC, it's rectified, unsmoothed AC.

It's is cheap as it can get - a coil connected to a bridge rectfier.

If you connected it up directly to electronic appliances it would probably blow them up.

It is a totally unregulated battery charger and will boil your batteries if you don't disconnected it when the battery is charged.
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Follow Up By: Nomadic Navara - Tuesday, May 13, 2008 at 17:09

Tuesday, May 13, 2008 at 17:09
Sounds like no one read the link before posting..

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Follow Up By: Best Off Road - Wednesday, May 14, 2008 at 20:49

Wednesday, May 14, 2008 at 20:49
I did.

Amazingly enough, it made sense.

Jim.

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Follow Up By: Mike Harding - Friday, May 16, 2008 at 06:07

Friday, May 16, 2008 at 06:07
>Sounds like no one read the link before posting.

Which is just as well because what Collyn asserts on that page is incorrect.

Mike Harding
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Follow Up By: Mike Harding - Friday, May 16, 2008 at 06:09

Friday, May 16, 2008 at 06:09
I should add; the correct answer is (as usual) the one posted by Mike DID above.

Mike Harding
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Reply By: Member - Damien L (QLD) - Tuesday, May 13, 2008 at 14:56

Tuesday, May 13, 2008 at 14:56
G,day Troll, I am also thinking of cost and weight. I have also read on this forum that the 12v charger on the gens you have to keep monitoring the charging as they dont have a cut off like a batt chger has?
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Follow Up By: Member - Troll 81 (QLD) - Tuesday, May 13, 2008 at 15:51

Tuesday, May 13, 2008 at 15:51
Damien,

I went through the solar vs. gennie process not long ago and ended up with the Honda. Went camping a couple of weeks ago and had the gennie running and the people that we went with asked me how I charge my batteries back up and I said the gennie is running and they said where?. The gennie was about 30m from the car and you could not hear it purring away. I am happy I ended up going with the gennie and it's nice to know I can run it around the house if we lose power or something....it's light and sits in front of fridges in the GU and the charger packs away in one of my black boxes.
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Follow Up By: Sand Man (SA) - Tuesday, May 13, 2008 at 16:09

Tuesday, May 13, 2008 at 16:09
Troll,

No argument with your setup mate, but this scenario is not common.

More often that not, you have someone next to you with a $98 Bunnings special and you can hear it from sundown to whenever the bloody TV finishes.

It is inconsiderate campers that give people the bleep s!

I can charge my batteries while driving, then have the benefit of a solar panel to put juice back into the portable battery pack while camping.
You can purchase an 80 watt panel and regulator for around $1000. A Honda, or Yammy 4 stroke is what - $1500-$1600 and you need to cart fuel for it as well as have the room to transport it.

The solar panel was an easy choice for me to make. I haven't been anywhere yet where adverse weather conditions have precluded me from using it for any extended period of time.

Bill.
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Follow Up By: Member - Troll 81 (QLD) - Tuesday, May 13, 2008 at 16:20

Tuesday, May 13, 2008 at 16:20
Bill,

Where we go the nearest camp is always 200 plus meters away. I don't camp well in crowds in fact I hate seeing other people when we go away. I have only had the setup for about 2 months and I love it so far. Also most of the camping we do is beach camping over at Straddie and we are always under the trees with minimal sun coming through. I will also not fire up the gennie if there are other people around becasue I know people don't like them.

But I see your point
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Follow Up By: Nomadic Navara - Tuesday, May 13, 2008 at 16:23

Tuesday, May 13, 2008 at 16:23
See my FollowUp on the previous rReply

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Follow Up By: Mainey (wa) - Tuesday, May 13, 2008 at 16:55

Tuesday, May 13, 2008 at 16:55
Solar is silent and much more efficient.

I say that because the fridge will draw most power during the heat of the day and less at night.

The correctly specified solar panel/s will supply all that power during the day, the (AGM) battery will only have to power the fridge at night.

Next day the solar panel will again recharge the (AGM) battery and continue to run the fridge during the day, a very dull and repetitive process with no input required from you, so you simply enjoy yourself.

Remember to also add the continual running costs associated with a generator v solar.

Mainey . . .
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Follow Up By: Member - Troll 81 (QLD) - Tuesday, May 13, 2008 at 17:10

Tuesday, May 13, 2008 at 17:10
Mainey,

I am not sure about more efficient but we all have our own opinions and that’s what makes it so good in this country. There are positives and negatives with both. For us because we go camping where there’s no other campers around and because you can’t hear the genie when it’s 20m away that was the best option for us at the time. It’s not a hassle for me to take the genie out of the back run the extension lead hook up the charger and pull the cord…the whole process takes about 2 min and the 3 stage charger charges the battery back up in about 40-80 min and then the gennie goes back into the car . Would I go back and change that…..NO I won’t, I was always very anti generator due to the noise and I was so amazed by how quite these new generation of good quality generators run and there has been times when we have people at our camp site and they don’t even know the thing was running.
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Follow Up By: Mainey (wa) - Tuesday, May 13, 2008 at 20:05

Tuesday, May 13, 2008 at 20:05
Troll,
I'm sure about the "efficiency" aspect, I think you will find it more a fact than fiction for the reasons I have stated above.

The Aux battery will last much longer too, this is due to the very real fact that it (AGM battery - NOT wetcel) remains on charge during the day while the (correctly specified) solar system actually powers the fridge.
Then the fully charged AGM battery only has to power the fridge and lights at night, it's then recharged again next day while the Solar panel/s run the fridge again.

However, with a genie, the battery has to run the fridge 24/7 with the ONLY time it's not doing so is when it's finally achieved a "full charge" by the genie, and at this point the genie is turned off as once the battery is fully charged the genie is just running, using fuel, making that wee little noise etc basically just costing money for no further result !!

The battery does and HAS to discharge and re-charge constantly, often to low Voltages when compared to optimum best practices available when using Solar power, simply because the genie is normally connected once a day for a few hours.

Mainey . . .
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Follow Up By: Member - Troll 81 (QLD) - Wednesday, May 14, 2008 at 09:13

Wednesday, May 14, 2008 at 09:13
So what if I run the fridges of 240v when I am charging :)
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Follow Up By: Mainey (wa) - Wednesday, May 14, 2008 at 10:03

Wednesday, May 14, 2008 at 10:03
Troll,
How do you get the 240v power ?

When using solar power you would use an Inverter with-out hassles.

Mainey . . .
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Follow Up By: Steve - Wednesday, May 14, 2008 at 12:01

Wednesday, May 14, 2008 at 12:01
Sandman - I just got an 80w Sharp panel off ebay for $576 and PL20 reg for $280 on a "buy now" deal. I now have two 80w panels which do me for 95% of the time (the other cost me $500 incl 100a/h battery both used). Regarding the GMC gennies, I run mine rarely and never at unsociable hours and I can't tell the difference in noise levels between it and a Honda. I would, of course rather have a Honda but the price doesn't justify the rare times I'd use it. Although with our recent track record with rain/weather we might just have to think again - we're thinking of hiring ourselves out as rainmakers


...and Troll, they have opinions in other countries too, mate.
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Follow Up By: Sand Man (SA) - Wednesday, May 14, 2008 at 17:43

Wednesday, May 14, 2008 at 17:43
Steve,

Sounds OK. I assume the Sharp panels are as efficient as the BP Solar I have? (mine are two 40 watt panels hinged together)

I happen to own a generator, given to me by my Bro. He is in the CFS and they were upgrading their equipment, so had a "fire sale".

Nothing wrong with the gennie, but it has sat in the shed since he gave it to me. I just don't need it on a camping trip.

Bill.
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Follow Up By: Steve - Wednesday, May 14, 2008 at 19:20

Wednesday, May 14, 2008 at 19:20
Hi Bill,

I've just looked at the two 80w panels (BP and Sharp) and they're rated at 4.55 and 4.63 in that order. I'd guess yours are different though, being 2 x 40s. So don't know which'd be highest. Whatever, I gave mine a good run on Straddie a couple of weeks back and after the rain stopped and we got beaut sunny days I was getting over 10A flowing through the two panels at times. Didn't last though. It'd normally sit around upper 8s/low 9s. The GMC job came in handy throught the rainy days but it's nice to just relax and let the panels do the work in peace and quiet whilst you go for a swim/fish. Soon topped the batteries back up - I'm made up with them. I did have just the one for about 3 years but now it's great not having to play catchup.
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Follow Up By: Mainey (wa) - Wednesday, May 14, 2008 at 19:34

Wednesday, May 14, 2008 at 19:34
Steve,
a good point with solar power is to have about 3 days battery power available.
Two reasons
(1) that way you never get to run the batteries low, probably never get below 12v
(2) when the weather is bad, and you stay in it (for some unknown reason) the batteries will still power any load without hassles, because *quality* solar panels will still power the batteries, even in overcast and cloudy weather to some degree.

Don't allow any genie users read this, as they will have to go out into the rain with their genie, where you can be anywhere you want.

Mainey . . .
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Follow Up By: Nomadic Navara - Wednesday, May 14, 2008 at 19:38

Wednesday, May 14, 2008 at 19:38
Troll

Re FollowUp 8 - I take it you are running a compressor fridge. If you are using 240 V to charge your batteries I would suggest running your fridge from the generator. This gives the battery all of the output of the battery charger to replenish the charge. Also if you have anything running off the 12 V system this could draw enough current to prevent the charger switching to float charge when the battery is finished charging - this will contribute to overcharging your battery.

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Follow Up By: Steve - Wednesday, May 14, 2008 at 19:55

Wednesday, May 14, 2008 at 19:55
Mainey,

battery power is one thing I don't lack. I can't stop acquiring them one way or the other. Got one thrown in with aforementioned used panel and then traded camper, kept batteries but acquired another couple with new camper. So, apart from my starting battery, I have 4 x batteries which did hhelp me when I brought rain to Straddie.

btw, Mainey, whilst you're here - what do you make of those Megapulse gadgets? I mentioned them to my auto-alec and he sneered that if they were any good there'd be a serious drop in the market for new batteries.
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Follow Up By: Nomadic Navara - Wednesday, May 14, 2008 at 23:18

Wednesday, May 14, 2008 at 23:18
Steve

Battery pulsating devices do have some value - see Site Link

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Follow Up By: Mainey (wa) - Thursday, May 15, 2008 at 00:41

Thursday, May 15, 2008 at 00:41
Steve,
I believe the Megapulse units work...!!

I have a series [II] connected to the Cranking battery and a series [III] connected to the 2 x AGM's, simply because [II] is not suitable for multiple battery systems.

My Cranking battery is over 6 yrs old and I replaced it last weekend, only because I was going to Perth, I picked up a new battery at the right price. The battery was still starting the diesel but probably would have not survived the winter, so is better to be safe than sorry and what I saved probably paid my fuel costs.

Mainey . . .
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Reply By: Isuzumu - Tuesday, May 13, 2008 at 15:54

Tuesday, May 13, 2008 at 15:54
The Christie Honda petrol charger will charger up to 55 amps, the 240 volt genny 1kva probably only run a 15amp charger (I not sure how big) so if you need to charge quickly then the petrol charger is the go. I have one of their Chinese built ones, it ok, but I should have brought one of theirs. The down side is they are noisier but you only have to run them for a short time.
I like this idea as I have all my batteries in the vehicle and can put the charger in and drive away from the camp to charge so not annoying anyone.

Cheers Bruce
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Reply By: Nomadic Navara - Tuesday, May 13, 2008 at 16:42

Tuesday, May 13, 2008 at 16:42
Damien

If you are going to do a little running around each day consider the RanOx battery booster This boosts the voltage from your vehicle alternator to give you full battery charging voltages to your battery. Read the site for more information. The boost in charging will possibly give you the extra charging necessary to maintain your battery.

It is acknowledged that a vehicle alternator will only charge a battery to about 75% of its maximum capacity. The battery booster will nearly give you 100% of rated capacity. With a battery booster on board you will arrive at your camp site with around 1/2 a days extra capacity in your battery compared with only charging it with your vehicle alternator.

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Follow Up By: Isuzumu - Tuesday, May 13, 2008 at 17:20

Tuesday, May 13, 2008 at 17:20
Hi Peter, thats what I need, I did not think they made them for the auto industry, we had similar on our yachts. I had a manual version, had to keep a close eye on it thought.
Can you tell me how much and where to buy please?

Cheers Bruce
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Follow Up By: Nomadic Navara - Tuesday, May 13, 2008 at 18:01

Tuesday, May 13, 2008 at 18:01
They have only been making this model for about 12 months. There has been the Arrid twin charge around for 15 years or so but it is only a constant voltage device (possibly like the one on your yacht.)

I think the RanOx unit is under $350. There is a new model that replaces the original already, It contains an input voltage sensor so that it does not start working until it detects the higher voltage from a charging generator and cuts off when it ceases charging this way you do not have to install something similar in your tug (like a Redarc.)

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Follow Up By: Member - Fifo - Tuesday, May 13, 2008 at 22:10

Tuesday, May 13, 2008 at 22:10
Peter,

The statement that "a vehicle alternator will only charge a battery to about 75% of its maximum capacity" is not correct. I have a 79 series turbo diesel landcruiser, 2003 model, and I have empirically determined that the alternator in my vehicle will charge my 2 90 amp hour batteries to 100%.

How do I know? I did a test. With the battery voltage reading something like 12.3V, I took the vehicle for a 3 hour drive. When I returned home, I disconnected all cables from both batteries.

24 hours later, I measured the voltage. Both batteries read 12.8V, 100% full charge.

Regards,
Peter
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Follow Up By: Isuzumu - Wednesday, May 14, 2008 at 07:02

Wednesday, May 14, 2008 at 07:02
Hi Peter (Fifo), I will try to explain what the other Peter is saying about the battery only being charged to 75%, this is what is commonly called a float charge. What happens is before you start your vehicle the battery with the ignition on may read say 11.5 volts you start up the alternator charges at near full capacity, BUT only for a very short period, because the battery tells the alt that it is up to 12.8 volts But this voltage is only showing from the top of the battery and it is not fully charged and the alt will drop back to charging 8 to 10 amps, unless you have a fridge running or spots lights ect and it will charge higher.
With this device what Peter is talking about does not allow the battery to dominate what the alt charges at and allows it to get to full charge.
In your case if you have left it for 24 hours and it is saying 12.8 volts and you put any sort of load on it, just the ignition on will drop the voltage drop quite a lot. Now if you have one of these devices on the battery will probably read 13.5 volts with the test that you have done.

Hope this explains it ok.
Cheers Bruce
PS my experience comes from owning and building boats and being a Master Class Mariner
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Follow Up By: Isuzumu - Wednesday, May 14, 2008 at 07:52

Wednesday, May 14, 2008 at 07:52
And another thing I should have said is the only way a battery can be checked properly is by a good load tester.

Cheers Bruce
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Follow Up By: Member - Fifo - Wednesday, May 14, 2008 at 08:42

Wednesday, May 14, 2008 at 08:42
Bruce,

I understood what Peter was saying; I just disagree with the assertion that the alternator will only charge the battery to 75% capacity. I believe in my 79 series, my batteries get charged to 100%.

When I did the experiment as described, my batteries were brand new. I have 2 Fullriver 90 aH batteries, connected in parallel, effectively making 1 big battery of 180aH.

Before installing the batteries, I charged them both, one at a time, to 100% charge using a smart charger. I then let them sit for 24 & 48 hours and read the voltage on each battery. Both batteries read, something like 12.79 V.

Therefore, with brand new batteries, when fully charged, and let sit for minimum of 24 hours, the voltage at 100% charge is 12.79V; close enough to 12.8V.

Then, with the battery reading 12.3V, drove the vehicle for 3 hours; upon stopping vehicle disconnected all cables from batteries. After 24 & 48 hours, batteries had 12.79V.

I believe this test proves empirically that the alternator in my 79 series will charge my batteries to 100%.

Regards,
Peter (Fifo)
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Follow Up By: Mainey (wa) - Wednesday, May 14, 2008 at 09:07

Wednesday, May 14, 2008 at 09:07
Fifo,
I understand your post ""the statement that a vehicle alternator will only charge a battery to about 75% of its maximum capacity is not correct..... 24 hours later, you measured the voltage. Both batteries read 12.8V, 100% full charge."" may raise some concerns ?

Peter, can you please do the same test again and then DISCONNECT (and isolate) the charge (+) cable to the 2 Fullriver 90ah batteries and then 24 hours later, with no accessories attached, take the battery system still connected in parallel, to have it tested with a 'load tester' and re-post the test results.

Yes, I believe you may have your same result again, but this time with verification.

Mainey . . .

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Follow Up By: Member - Fifo - Thursday, May 15, 2008 at 20:53

Thursday, May 15, 2008 at 20:53
Mainey,

I'd be happy to do the test except for the fact that I don't own a load tester; and, the effort to lift out the AGM batteries, and take them somewhere, is a pain in the derriere, as they each weigh 30kgs.

However, let me state that I'm confident in my test methodology. I read the arguments re. a vehicle's alternator will only charge a battery to 75% in previous threads, a year or so ago; that's why I determined to verify for myself whether or not my alternator will charge to 100% capacity.

So, do you think there is a flaw in my test methodology or do you subscribe to the theory that a vehicle's alternator will only charge to 75% capacity?

Peter
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Follow Up By: Mainey (wa) - Thursday, May 15, 2008 at 21:24

Thursday, May 15, 2008 at 21:24
Peter, I posted: "" can you please do the same test again and then DISCONNECT (and isolate) the charge (+) cable to the 2 Fullriver 90ah batteries and then 24 hours later, with NO accessories attached, take the battery system still connected in parallel, to have it tested with a 'load tester' and re-post the test results""

Peter, by disconecting the charge cable AND isolating it too, you can drive to a battery shop to have them test the battery system, you don't have to actually remove them from your vehicle.

No tricks, I get 12.8v (@ rest) from my AGM's too !!

Mainey . . .
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Follow Up By: Member - Fifo - Thursday, May 15, 2008 at 21:53

Thursday, May 15, 2008 at 21:53
Mainey, You're making an assumption :-) My 2 Fullriver 90aH batteries are both my starting battery and what I use to power my accessories...
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Follow Up By: Mainey (wa) - Thursday, May 15, 2008 at 22:18

Thursday, May 15, 2008 at 22:18
Peter, Yes, I understood you were talking about 2 x Fullriver 90ah AGM's.
However, I assumed you were using them for the job the manufacturer made them for !!
My mistake...

Mainey . . .



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Reply By: Member -Pinko (NSW) - Tuesday, May 13, 2008 at 17:06

Tuesday, May 13, 2008 at 17:06
We have a Honda 10i and it runs a C-Tek 2500 on 240V. eco mode which is not much more than idle speed. Thats less Db.s than the hiss of a ringpull can.
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Reply By: DIO - Tuesday, May 13, 2008 at 18:10

Tuesday, May 13, 2008 at 18:10
Why not have a look at the latest offering from one of this site's sponsors Derek Bester ABR 4 Wheel Drive Accessories. He has a 4 stroke 12volt 50 amp Digital Charger that looks and sounds pretty good for the money. Kink
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Reply By: Member - Damien L (QLD) - Wednesday, May 14, 2008 at 14:24

Wednesday, May 14, 2008 at 14:24
Thanks Fellas for all tour info and help.
I have made up my mind and I am going for the EU10i and a 8 amp Batt Charger. This way I can run the fridge, computer and lights via the gen when needed.
I love this site, glad I joined.
Hope to see some of you on the road one day, I hail from Cairns.
Thanks again, Damien
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Reply By: Member - Steve & Paula - Saturday, May 17, 2008 at 20:06

Saturday, May 17, 2008 at 20:06
To be honest we have both solar and a Honda. We started with the Honda and found it to be most adequate. We then purchased a 125w BP panel which we use most of the time. The generator comes out when the weather doesn't support the use of solar. The people we camp with have the same set up so we generally only take one generator and share when we need it. This works for our set up quite well.

(One person that we occasionally camp with uses only solar and there hasn't been an extended trip away with him yet where he hasn't had to plug in to the generator!)
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