OT – House Electrical Circuit Question

Submitted: Saturday, May 24, 2008 at 11:59
ThreadID: 57945 Views:3928 Replies:4 FollowUps:13
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Not totally off-topic. Finally getting around to buying a welder for making/adapting my off-road ‘equipment’.

Have 16A circuit breakers for power circuits in the house meter box. Does that indicate circuits suitable for 15A plug / draw??

When electrician put in line to my shed years ago I thought he put in heavier wire but can’t find certificate!

Thanks JD
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Reply By: Brian (Montrose, Vic.) - Saturday, May 24, 2008 at 12:35

Saturday, May 24, 2008 at 12:35
JD
In the average home most power circuits are only rated as 10 amp, this means that the total load on any circuit can only amount to 10 A. They have a 16 amp breaker in them so that they don't over heat and trip if you are continually running devices at or near the 10 A maximum of the circuit.
If you want to run a 15 amp device, which will have the larger earth pin on the plug you will (legally) need to have a 15 amp circuit wired in from the fuse box. This circuit will have a 20 amp cicuit breaker fitted for the same reasons.
For the sake of your safety it would be worth getting the wiring in question xhecked out to see if it can be upgraded to 15 amps , if it is the heavier gauge wiring then it will only be a cheap and simple matter of changing the GPO's (power poiunts) and the circuit breaker to 15 amp rated equipment.
I'm not an A-grade sparky but in the work I do, I unfortunately get to see a few customers who thought that by changing the 15 A plug to a 10 A one they could save themselves a few bucks....
!5 amp plugs are usually on devices for a good reason, so I would be definately getting your shed's power supply checked before trying to run a high current device off a 10 A outlet.

Brian
AnswerID: 305588

Follow Up By: jdwynn (Adelaide) - Saturday, May 24, 2008 at 12:42

Saturday, May 24, 2008 at 12:42
thanks Brian for an extremely helpful response.

15A line definitely opens up the field a bit on welders too.

Cheers JD
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Follow Up By: Member - joc45 (WA) - Saturday, May 24, 2008 at 17:06

Saturday, May 24, 2008 at 17:06
Yeh, I acquired a 140A welder with the 15A plug replaced with a 10A one (honest, I didn't do it!).
Now I shouldn't be saying this, but it works ok running off the 10A outlet with a 16A breaker, but after a few minutes of heavy welding, the breaker will drop out, necessitating a reset. Ok for short or lighter low-current jobs.
Gerry
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Follow Up By: Brian - Saturday, May 24, 2008 at 18:05

Saturday, May 24, 2008 at 18:05
" it works ok running off the 10A outlet with a 16A breaker, but after a few minutes of heavy welding, the breaker will drop out, necessitating a reset."

Not to mention it MIGHT, just MIGHT be melting your cabling!

Cheers

Brian (Gold Coast)
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Follow Up By: oldtrack123 - Saturday, May 24, 2008 at 23:30

Saturday, May 24, 2008 at 23:30
Hi
MOST domestic welder are around 48 to 50 v noload & usually max current of 110 amps
Mains current=50 x 110 divided by 240=22amps , thats why a 16amp cb will only hold for a short time .
home welders have a low duty cycle [ % of time welding to not welding]& will over heat if this is exceeded.,manufacturers use this duty cycle to calculate the' rated ' primary current,IT IS NOT THE MAX CURRENT THEY WILL DRAW.
REPEATED TRIPPING OF CIRCUIT BREAKERS WILL SLOWLY LOWER THEIR TRIPPING CURRENT SO THEY TRIP EVEN QUICKER.
Do not under any circumstances increase fuse or cb rating to avoid fuse blowing or cb tripping.,you could do serous damage to wiring with possible fire risk.
Get a separate 15amp circuit installed
-
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Follow Up By: Mike Harding - Sunday, May 25, 2008 at 09:11

Sunday, May 25, 2008 at 09:11
Joc45(WA)!

Gerry - you're just trying to wind them up aren't you!?

Now, go away and don't post here again until you have written out 100 times "I must not exceed the capacity of a circuit breaker in case it trips".

Mike Harding :)
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Follow Up By: Member - Olcoolone (S.A) - Sunday, May 25, 2008 at 11:07

Sunday, May 25, 2008 at 11:07
If you house is wired correctly your circuit breaker will be rated under that of the cable.

There is no way you you should be able melt the cable as the circuit breaker might be rated at 16 amps and cabling at 20 amps.

The circuit breaker has to be the weakest link.

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Follow Up By: Member - joc45 (WA) - Sunday, May 25, 2008 at 12:04

Sunday, May 25, 2008 at 12:04
I must not exceed the capacity of a circuit breaker in case it trips
I must not exceed the capacity of a circuit breaker in case it trips
I must not exceed the capacity of a circuit breaker in case it trips
I must not exceed the capacity of a circuit breaker in case it trips
I must not exceed the capacity of a circuit breaker in case it trips
I must not exceed the capacity of a circuit breaker in case it trips
.
.
....100-1
I must not exceed the capacity of a circuit breaker in case it trips
There!
Gerry
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Follow Up By: Mike Harding - Sunday, May 25, 2008 at 12:20

Sunday, May 25, 2008 at 12:20
I bet you cheated and used cut and paste :)

I'd better not mention the time I blew a 3 phase, 200A switch-fuse clean off the wall - fed directly from the sub. it was bloody impressive - left it dangling in mid-air hanging on the SWA cable :)

Mike Harding
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Follow Up By: Member - joc45 (WA) - Sunday, May 25, 2008 at 12:51

Sunday, May 25, 2008 at 12:51
No Mike, really, I wrote it out longhand!

Re 200A switch-fuse, sounds like something out of the movies!
And did you end up with the classic blackened face and singed hair? :-)

I watched an apprentice swinging a shifter spanner on a lug of a 130v battery bank (1000AH, it was big) for a rotary no-break system. He hit the spanner against the metal cabinet and it went up like a roman candle!!! Poor lad stepped back with a blackened face, a dazed look, and half a melted spanner in his hand. Dropped it pretty quickly, too! Batteries survived ok but he put in an order for a new shifter spanner. Oh, the apprentice survived ok as well. Silly bugger had pulled out the isolation fuse, but had neglected to remove the earth off the batteries as well, so the bank was still live.
G

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Follow Up By: Mike Harding - Sunday, May 25, 2008 at 14:29

Sunday, May 25, 2008 at 14:29
Got to watch those battery banks… a bit of current capability in them and spanners make less than idea fuses :)

The switchfuse was quite amusing: I was working night shift in a plastic injection moulding factory and the moulding shop foreman called me out because one of the big presses had stopped. Checked it out and found two of the fuses in said switchfuse had blown, hmmmm… probably the big motor driving the hydraulic pump I thought. Meggered out the motor (big devil about 3’ dia) and it checked out OK. Hmmmm… I though… tired fuse caused it to two phase for a while and then a second fuse gave up the ghost I surmised. Solution: replace all three HRC fuses and try again. Did this and with the moulding shop foreman standing by my side pressed the “Go” button on the star/delta starter… BOOM! Flashes of flame from the switchfuse as it exploded off the wall – hmmmm… so that motor was down to earth after all said I. Turned to moulding shop foreman who was looking very white and none too steady on his feet – poor devil ended up spending this rest of the night in hospital with shock.

Mike Harding
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Follow Up By: oldtrack123 - Sunday, May 25, 2008 at 15:20

Sunday, May 25, 2008 at 15:20
Hi Mike
I know the feeling.I was on night shift in a large engieering works during a severe elecr storm.
Lightning struck the o/h lines feeding our enclosed substation with 3x250 kva transformers.
Supply auth linesmen fixed the line fault & restored power ok to lines..They tried to reset the main oil filled h/v circuit breaker[11000v]in the sub but it was a touchy one to latch with a hand wheel that had to be carefuuly nursed to close.I was outside so they came out & askd me to close it, they stayed outside.
In I went yair I'll show how .
LATCHED IT OK, CLOSED, BOOM,BANG,FLAME BURNING OIL, bleep TERED INSULATORS flying around & falling down around me, .
Not a sound from those outside for what seemed like a minute to me,then one said'are you alright in there'?
I can not remember my reply!!
THE LIGHTNIG HAD DAMAGED TWO TRANSFORMERS & I had closed the h/v cb on what must have been a dead short. the cb was blown apart,all I HAD BETWEEN ME & ALL THE FUN WAS A MISCOLITE PANEL ABOUT 2MTS HIGH.
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FollowupID: 571840

Reply By: Brian - Saturday, May 24, 2008 at 18:05

Saturday, May 24, 2008 at 18:05
What Brian (Montrose, Vic.) said above is very very good advice!!

cheers

Brian (Gold Coast)
AnswerID: 305638

Reply By: Sand Man (SA) - Saturday, May 24, 2008 at 20:41

Saturday, May 24, 2008 at 20:41
JD,

Some welders will run off a 10 amp circuit They come from the factory with a 10 amp plug fitted.
I have a CIG (BOC) brand arc welder that only requires a 10 amp circuit.

Another alternative is a mig welder which in "domestic" grades, also generally run off a 10 amp circuit.

Bill.
Bill


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AnswerID: 305664

Follow Up By: jdwynn (Adelaide) - Saturday, May 24, 2008 at 21:33

Saturday, May 24, 2008 at 21:33
Howdy Bill, I'd noticed only CIG made highest rated welder (165 series?) where 10a plug ok. But I'm watching the $, so might have to go with something else. cheers JD
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Reply By: Member - Shane L - QLD - Sunday, May 25, 2008 at 08:02

Sunday, May 25, 2008 at 08:02
Jdwynn,
"Normal" house hold/domestic power circuits are protected with a 16A MCB, some are 20A, this is due to a lot of different factors such as volt drop (length of run) de-rating for insulation around cable etc... Circuit Breaker (MCB) is to protect wiring only, and due to the impractibility of having each point on its own circuit the MCB rating is higher than the rating of the power point which is as stated above only 10Amps whether it is a single or double point. 15Amp points would generally have a 20Amp MCB and depending on de-rating and volt drop sometimes a bigger cable (4.0mm2) 15Amp points are also on their own circuit as well, not like the 10Amp circuits which can have up to 16 sockets (currently) counting a double as 2.
Do you have a small sub board in your shed? if so a 15Amp point could be wired from this, quick way to tell if circuit to shed is capable is to check meter box/main switch board for the size of the MCB on the shed circuit or as stated look for a sub board in shed.
Sometimes customers don't want to spend the extra money to run a 32 Amp circuit and fit sub board to a shed and therefore only have a "Normal" Power point circuit installed to cover a couple of power points and a couple of lights, this is fine unless they decide to in the future to try and do some welding etc. in there and find they don't have enough amps to run it.

hope this adds some clarity for you regardless of which welder you decide on.

Shane
AnswerID: 305701

Follow Up By: jdwynn (Adelaide) - Sunday, May 25, 2008 at 08:13

Sunday, May 25, 2008 at 08:13
Much thanks for this Shane. Dont have a subboard in the shed - dfintily only 15a MCB on main board. I'd get 15a in a heart beat now - 20:20 hingsight hey. Cheers JD
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FollowupID: 571759

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