snatching recoveries

" I see so many people up the beach all the time that just put the pedal to ground and hope for the bests."- this is what concerns me. Is the general consenus that there are more uneducated people out there in 4wd's with recovery gear (that they have no idea how to use), than 'trained' people? Is it just ignorance that people carry the gear and not realise how dangerous it could be, or is it that they have a 'she'll be right mate ' attitude.

I think most people don't think about what could go wrong. I saw a bloke in his troopy years ago with a chain around his tow ball and the other end around the bull bar of the other car....as soon as I saw this I made sure I bailed straight away because he was reversing and getting ready to perform a snatch recovery with a chain...and just as I took off the chain broke and went flying like a whip over the roof of the troopy smashing the rear window. Lucky for them no one was injured but I can only shake my head at people like that.

"When ever I help someone I always inspect their snatch"

Thanks Troll, you have made my day!

Matt.

Glad I could help..... :)

Not everyone is recovering backpackers on Fraser.

QUESTION.........


does that shovel still have the paint on it ? :-0 :-)

Thats what killrust epoxy gloss enamel is for .

hearing ya

That is awesome paint . I painted a rusty steel box trailer 10 years ago and the rust hasnt spread .

Get someone else to do it? Come on, will you really drive past an elderly couple stuck somewhere in the sand with no one else around.....I don't think so and if you do you have some serious issues

I believe what goes around comes around. I am always the first to put my hand up and help and the minimal times I have needed a hand there was always someone that was willing to help.

OLCOOLONE

" We carry recovery gear for our own use and for anyone else who we don't know a small fee."

you'de be a rude sort of a @&$%*($%, fancy charging someone who's in trouble. whatever happened to giving a bloke a hand up.

i would only hope that now after everyone has read your dribble that people will leave you stranded in your time of need!!!!!

The minute you start charging a small fee, or any fee for that matter, there is a quantum shift in the goalposts.

Fee for service ( a contract in law) is a TOTALLY different situation to just giving someone a hand to recover or de-bog their vehicle.

If you have been paid for your service, the responibility for any damage that may occur then is a serious issue for you to consider.

If it was me, I'd lend a hand anyway but would also pull out if the task was
A) Beyond the capability of my vehicle.
B) Beyond my personal knowledge and/or my physical abilities
C) If I considered the risk to life and limb (mine) was too great

Doesn't mean that I would abandon anyone in strife but would mean that I wouldn't jeopardise my life or vehicle.

Disco.

A fee for service has nothing to do with a contract under civil law.

I thought it would cause some sh*$.

You will find if you charge a fee or not and you help someone and it goes pear shaped you may still be liable for damagers caused (except first aid assistance).

So if someone ran out of fuel and you had 20Lts. I take it you would just give it to them because according to some of you you can't charge a fee for a service.

Why should I let someone who thinks "na I don't need that stuff because someone else who has spent the money to get the right gear will come along and help" attitude use my gear....what happens is they break it.

Of course I will help someone in dire straits but humane stupidity is a different thing.

As I said before in another post if they have some gear I will stay there all day and help for FREE.

I have been court out be someone damaging our Hilux who offered to pay for repairs or claim it under their public liability insurance ($100 excess)...when it can to shove it was a different story and we ended up putting it through our insurance.

G'day Hairy,

Don't say that too loud! In QLD just recently,

"Latest on the law: New standards for snatch straps

This month has seen the introduction of the new mandatory standards for motor vehicle recovery straps (snatch straps).

The new safety standard, which took effect 1 April 2008, was developed in consultation with key industry bodies and four wheel drive associations in response to two deaths associated with the incorrect use of the product.

The Office of Fair Trading has developed a business compliance guide outlining new mandatory marking and information requirements. This is available in the publications section."

It is only a spit away from licencing which could be next - in the interest of safety off course>

Kind regards

Why is everyone so hell bent on protecting the stupid?
I reackon if they are too thick to be able to use a snatch strap they are also too bloody stupid to be behind the wheel.

Cheers

in the interest of safety............. & revenue...............of course!

I'm a believer of the Darwin theory of evolution myself. I just hope I never end up out of the gene pool by mother nature's careful selection. Try my best to keep swimming but every now and then I do operate out of my depth.

Kind regards

What's wrong with having a standard for the testing and labeling of snatchstraps. There's been heaps of magazine artciles about the huge differnces in the strengths of snatchstaps that are rated the same.

..and what's wrong with getting some instruction about using a snatch strap. Isn't that what this thread is about - people's lack of knowladge about recoveries and their possible dangers. It probably says things like "don't use tie down points or towballs"

"I reackon if they are too thick to be able to use a snatch strap they are also too bloody stupid to be behind the wheel." - Seriously Hairy, you might remember to the time when someone tought you how to drive. There are no lessons required to buy and operate a snatch strap, so it's hardly comparable.

R.

Robak,
(no lessons required) Like Beatit said...not yet put its only a spit away.....
As for learning to drive.....yes we all need to learn, but we should have a choice in who teaches us.
How is a rated strap going to matter? Are you telling me when you snatch some one out you can judge the pessure your putting on the strap in kgs?
Id like to think most people have a look at what they are doing, make a sensible judgement and drive accordingly, staying clear knowing that it could go wrong.
But then again if the strap is say rated at 4000kg and it breaks at 3800kg you can blame someone else . buggered if I know how your going to prove it.

Cheers

Hairy,

I agree with what you're saying, but unfortunately the common theme amongst people that I know outside of our club environment is that you buy the strap and if you need to use it, it can't be that hard. I knew a bloke here on the Coast a few years back who had a 4wd and a strap, no recovery points, no rated shackles, he wouldn't do a course or even let me explain it to him... his philosophy was he'll work it out when he needs to. I have spoken with many others over the years with the same views. Thankfully I have convinced some to join a club/do a course. And it's these people that make it hard for the rest of us. That's what will bring mandatory courses for recovery in more than anything else, so that the ignorant strap buyer can't use "I wasn't shown how to use it" as a defence when he kills or maims someone.

It shouldn't have to be that way, but I bet it will be!

Regards

Brian

Hairy,

I just thought it was a little contradictory that we lament people's inability to use snatch straps safely, and then ridicule a requirement of providing safety instructions when they are sold.

R.

My point is no amount of training or legislation is going to stop accidents and it shouldnt be compulsory.
Commen sense will always be the best option

I'll have to disagree with you there. Training and legislation will reduce accidents (but will not eliminate them).

There three groups of people out there
1. People who know how to use snatch straps correctly.
2. People who don't know but are willing to learn.
3. People who don't know and don't care.

You can't help the third group.

Training shouldn't be compolsury but what is wrong with a small tag attached to the strap when you buy it, which says
"don't use tie down points etc.." Your TV comes with a user guide so why not a snatch strap. After all you don't have to read it if you don't want to.

R.

I think you are missing my point....maybe my explanations not the best....
I agree there is nothing wrong with instructions coming with anything.
But the whole snatch strap debate is heading like many other things these days......Laws and regulations to protect the iDIOt.
I think too many rules just make people stop thinking for themselves.

Excellent questions Mike. Many tow bars are not even rated recovery points yet 99% of people would have no trouble hooking a snatch to them. Then even if one was to buy a so called rated after market product are the bolts high tensile & is the chassis they are attached to able to take 10 tonne?
As for the last question that's easy...........you've exceeded the rating when something breaks ;-))
Cheers Craig............

Where do you get 10 tons from.

Mitsubishi did a test a couple of years ago using a snatch strap to recover a Pajero out of different bog situations and the maximum force they could get was about 1.9 tons.

If you snatch a vehicle weighing 3.5 tons and you snatch it at 30Kp/h you will generate about 7.5 tons of force, if you did it at 15Kp/h you would generate about 3.6 tons and if you did it at 10Kp/h you would generate about 2.5 tons.

You can get a snatch strap to travel up to 800Kp/h in recovery.....yes 800Kp/h.

Common snatch straps have a tested breaking point of 8 to 10 tonne so it stands to reason the car & it's recovery points will need to be 10 tonne or greater as well.
I'd question your statistics as I've broken a new 8 tonne strap at under 10 kph towing a Cruiser weighing about 3.5 tonne. I find it is more to do with the power, weight & traction of the tow vehicle than the speed. For example a Suzuki with bald tyres on a muddy track may produce only 1 tonne of pressure where as a Patrol on a tar road will pull a full 8 tonne if you wanted to. I doubt many 4x4's could accellerate to 30 kph in half the length of a snatch strap anyway ;-)
Cheers Craig..............

It seems no one can - so does this mean there is no such thing as a "rated recovery point"?

Mike Harding

I wouldn't use a snatch strap to pull someone up a muddy track, snatch straps are designed for when vehicles are stuck.

Mike,
As far as I am aware, the "recovery points" factory fitted on a 4wd are either tie down points, therefore not recovery points at all, or tow hooks that no vehicle manufacturer will "rate" for snatch recovery anyway. The D points on a Nissan come to mind, I removed mine years ago, 'cos they are not meant for shock loads. So the only "rated recovery points" out there will be the tow hooks available from the major 4WD stores...... That is what I have on my truck and most of the members of our club have the same hook. I am changing mine out this weekend as they are 5 years old now and have performed many snatch demonstrations on our club DAP days. For the price of them, it's better to throw 'em away early!

TJM web site has this to say about their product;

"TJM OX TOW HOOKS
(4,500kg)

Rated Tow Hooks complete with all mounting hardware and including strap keeper are available in either black or chrome plated."

As for mine, I don't use the high tensile bolts that come with the kit.... I go to the nuts and bolts shop and buy the highest grade high tensile bolts I can get and use those instead for a little extra insurance.

The other thing is that these are called Tow Hooks, officially they are not recommended for "snatch" recovery, unofficially, in guarded whispers around secret camp fires, apparently they are.


I believe that there is no rating applicable to snatch recovery, no government standards for it yet, so the ratings used are riggers ratings.... (Happy to stand corrected if I'm wrong here.)

The thing I try to keep in mind is that people have died or been maimed for life performing incorrect snatch recoveries, we all need to take a lot of care when carrying out this exercise..... we may not get a second chance at it!


Regards

Brian