5th Gear Towing.....Again
Submitted: Tuesday, Aug 05, 2008 at 00:23
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Member - Doug T W/Qld
I know this subject has been debated many times, and I've read many of them, I have towed my 20ft van from Mt Isa to
Perth to
Molong to
El Arish and most of the way to now
Cloncurry in 5th, What I do is just let it roll along on flat terrain at around 75Kph and up to 85Kph , the vehicle is not working hard with ideal conditions ie no head wind, of course then 4th will be selected and will be for slight rises when I notice the speed beginning to drop below 70Kph,The accelerator is not even half way down , the weight of the van seems to give momentum , Now here's my theory, when I was working the car as Pilot vehicle I had to try and maintain 90 / 95 Kph ....in 5th , with that
sign up on the roof creates a hell of a lot of drag, I have noticed the accelerator was 3/4 down , and the car was working hard up hills and down, sometime with head or side winds, that fact tells me it must be harder on the gearbox over the hundreds of thousands of Ks doing that than towing a van gently at a happy speed for the vehicle , I'll put it yet another way, (1) leave
Southern Cross WA with the van on and 360 Lts of diesel and done 2000 Klm to Pt
Augusta, (2) leave
Brisbane Port with
sign up (no trailer) and only got 2008 Klm , to me the way it had to work was much harder than towing a caravan in 5th at 75 kph, I know there will be many of you reply with ....BUT , that's OK I'll be interested to read your thoughts.
.
Reply By: Gone Bush (WA) - Tuesday, Aug 05, 2008 at 00:36
Tuesday, Aug 05, 2008 at 00:36
G'day Doug of Western QLD, I knew your twin in Far North QLD.
Doug, I've contributed to this discussion before, and I have the same gearbox as you, and this is now what I do:
After ringing Toyota and asking the question they said not to tow in 5th at all. It's an overdrive gear. But I wanted my own proof.
So I experimented with the Scangauge I have plugged in. It gives instant fuel consumption readouts.
While towing my full height van up the Old Coast Rd from Bunbury one day (I'm sure you're familar with it) I towed in 5th at 90kph and then in 4th at 90kph. The engine was much more responsive in 4th and the fuel consumption was exactly the same.
Exactly the same.
So now I tow everywhere in 4th. It's kinder on the engine.
Fifth gear is simply on the wrong side of 1:1 and using 4th makes the engine stress less.
Just think of way back in the past when we were able to do situps. Lying flat on
the bench is 1:1; allowing your back to fall off the end of
the bench and try a situp is 5th gear; lying on
the bench with an angled support under your back and doing a situp is 4th.
I feel tired now after all that exercise.
Travel safe Doug.
AnswerID:
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Follow Up By: Member - Doug T W/Qld - Tuesday, Aug 05, 2008 at 00:58
Tuesday, Aug 05, 2008 at 00:58
Gone Bush
Yep... know the road your on about very
well,
You did say 90Kph , that means you would be making it work hard to maintain and placing the unwanted stress on components , What I'm doing is cruising easy at around the 75/80 and not placing stress on components , as I said as soon I notice it working I drop down to 4th, it just rolls along easy, of course i do also run Nulon in everything too,anyhow thanks for your input.
PS of course you have the added benefit of a Turbo too, as for fuel economy whether in truck with 380hp (wow a 600hp CAT in a KW was nice to drive once) or a non turbo cruiser I always notice a much better economy by not pushing a vehicle to its limit on revs, as for gearboxes I achieved 1,300,000 Klm with a 9 speed Roadranger in the 1980s, I put that down to Wynnes,it was still working OK when I sold it .
.
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Follow Up By: Member - Doug T W/Qld - Tuesday, Aug 05, 2008 at 01:04
Tuesday, Aug 05, 2008 at 01:04
Gone Bush
I got overtaken by a Cruiser Trayback tonight between
Richmond and
Julia Creek , bloody hell was he liftin'....nearly sucked me out the window, at a guess from my 75 Ks he must have been around 130Ks , .....fuel...$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
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Follow Up By: Gone Bush (WA) - Tuesday, Aug 05, 2008 at 01:08
Tuesday, Aug 05, 2008 at 01:08
Yep,
without the van on the back the TDV8 loves to fly.
I'll probably get done under the anti-HOON laws soon.
Even with the van on I can tow it up
Madura Pass at 100kph.
cheers mate (go to bed !!)
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Follow Up By: Nav 8 - Tuesday, Aug 05, 2008 at 10:14
Tuesday, Aug 05, 2008 at 10:14
Question for Gone Bush? I am at present looking at getting into a 70 Series V8, can you give me some fuel consumption figures. Towing a van and general running around, thanks.
Regards Nav.
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Follow Up By: Gone Bush (WA) - Tuesday, Aug 05, 2008 at 11:23
Tuesday, Aug 05, 2008 at 11:23
Nav 8
You'll find that the fuel consumption is virtually identical to a 100 series. The engine has the same power and torque.
Around town I get about 12 litres/100ks.
Driving at highway speeds but not towing you will get slightly less than the 100 series because of the lack of aerodynamic qualities in the 70 series.
Towing my full height, 2500kg van, over about 20,000ks I averaged 20 litres/100ks.
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Follow Up By: Nav 8 - Tuesday, Aug 05, 2008 at 14:44
Tuesday, Aug 05, 2008 at 14:44
Thanks for that, a little higher than I expected with towing but I guess you have to except that... Regards Nav.
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Follow Up By: Member - Doug T NT - Wednesday, Aug 13, 2008 at 16:09
Wednesday, Aug 13, 2008 at 16:09
Gone Bush
Can you tell me the difference between this, in 5th gear towing a van with tail wind or slight down
hill with only half inch of throttle or or not towing a van/trailer in 5th gear with the bloody oversize
sign up trying to maintain 90Ks with 2 inches + of throttle and still working it's guts out blowing a bit of black smoke, if that's not putting a strain on 5th I'll go hee, and my old troopy done that for 1000s of Ks.
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Reply By: Member - Kiwi Kia - Tuesday, Aug 05, 2008 at 08:02
Tuesday, Aug 05, 2008 at 08:02
Hi Doug, I would not argue with the scan gauge, that should give the 'real' facts and would love to have one on my trucks just to see what really is going on.
Without a scan gauge here is what I do to get a rough idea of where the engine 'sweet spot' is for cruising. Find a good steep
hill and just let the vehicle find it's own speed. Some vehicles seem to get to about 80 - 85 and sit there, some rather sleek vehicles just 'run away'. If you find that you actually have to use accelerator when going down
hill to exceed the above 80-85 then that speed will be your best cruising speed, anything above that is using extra fuel just to push against the inherent drag of the vehicle shape and drive line. I have driven very large motor homes in the USA and found that I got much better fuel economy then several other people driving the same vehicle.
AnswerID:
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Follow Up By: Member - Doug T NW/Qld - Tuesday, Aug 05, 2008 at 11:19
Tuesday, Aug 05, 2008 at 11:19
Kiwi Kia
Should be able to know what the engine etc is doing without gauges , when I was driving trucks I could hear new noises long befor anyone else could, like the time the an alternator give up, I knew something was amiss 2 months before , new interference on the radio, a diff began whining , I could hear it , no one else could , 4 months later in went a new one.
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Follow Up By: Member - Kiwi Kia - Tuesday, Aug 05, 2008 at 11:26
Tuesday, Aug 05, 2008 at 11:26
Doug, if you reckon you can tell what fuel consumption you are getting at any given throttle / gear setting without a scan gauge how about letting me in on the secret :-))
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Follow Up By: Member - Doug T NW/Qld - Tuesday, Aug 05, 2008 at 11:34
Tuesday, Aug 05, 2008 at 11:34
Kiwi Kia
I try to drive at a speed / gear / conditions where I know it doing it's best , in that scenario it wouldn't matter how many gauges you had it won;t get any better, it's all in the right foot, talking about right foots I had a bloke ask me once has it got a cruise control , I told him yes, it's attached to my right leg, would be good to have one though.
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Reply By: Member - Norm C (QLD) - Tuesday, Aug 05, 2008 at 08:11
Tuesday, Aug 05, 2008 at 08:11
Been thinking about this again myself lately.
Currently with the Hilux (loaded to the hilt with boat on top) and towing 1.5T CT, we only go into 5th on long downhill runs. Occasionally, slip into 5th on those
long flat sections out West, but watch the taco and if it looks like dropping below 2,000 RPM, we drop back to 4th.
We soon pick up the new V8 TD Ute (it is getting the canopy fitted at the moment,
suspension upgrade to be done, then rego and it's
mine).
I'm wondering if, with the same load, we are safe to tow a bit more in 5th with that vehicle. ie default to 5th on all flat ground and only drop down when heading up
hill. We'll eventually upgrade the CT to a van and would then return to our current practice. Guess I'll talk to the 'experts' at Toyota on this.
GB, you are right on the fuel. Towing in 4th and 5th costs about the same in fuel. 4th only costs more if we cruise above 90 KPH. At about 85 to 90 (our regular cruising speed in the Hilux), there is not enough difference to measure. At $2.15 per litre on the trip we just did, fuel management is getting more important.
Norm C
AnswerID:
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Follow Up By: Dennis Ellery - Tuesday, Aug 05, 2008 at 09:59
Tuesday, Aug 05, 2008 at 09:59
My mate has been using Toyota 70 series utes in his business for years and currently owns a 2006 Toyota 70 series ute with a 4.2 Turbo Charged 6 cylinder Diesel. Tows a 22 foot van (aprox 2.5 tonne) in 5th at 80/90 ks – same vehicle and van around Australia twice on bitumen - no problems.
I travelled with him on one trip in a 2008 Troopy 4.5 V8 diesel towing a 24ft van (approx 2.75 tonne). I have done two 300k trials one in 4th and one in 5th – not a bit of difference in fuel consumption between 4th and 5th gear. The manual says that you should be wary of towing heavy loads in 5th due to reduced engine braking. I will continue to tow in 4th and 5th depending on terrain or head winds.
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Follow Up By: Member - Doug T NW/Qld - Tuesday, Aug 05, 2008 at 11:24
Tuesday, Aug 05, 2008 at 11:24
Dennis
Exactly my thoughts too, some are saying it puts stress on components,
well of course it will if you make do so, as I stated in my post I do not allow stress to occur, yesterday it was rolling along quite easy in 5th with very little throttle, but Oh what a different story today for the 90Klm into
Cloncurry, strong side winds and 4th all the way , if I selected 5th stress would have been applied.
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Reply By: Ken S - Tuesday, Aug 05, 2008 at 08:48
Tuesday, Aug 05, 2008 at 08:48
Mate of
mine has just returned from a trip towing my small jayco pop up van . Toyota 3 litre hilux . Just near
Wilcannia gearbox gave out . Got it towed to
Broken Hill for repairs there . Dealer there said to him , towing in fifth gear eh !Reckons he gets about 100 a year with 5th gear damage , seems a hell of a lot to me , about two a week . Any way $5000 later my mate resumed his trip and only towed in 4th and under .
AnswerID:
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Follow Up By: Honky - Tuesday, Aug 05, 2008 at 10:14
Tuesday, Aug 05, 2008 at 10:14
If towing a small jayco pop top van is to much for a toyota hilux gearbox than it doesnt say much for the vehicle.
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Follow Up By: Member - Doug T NW/Qld - Tuesday, Aug 05, 2008 at 11:26
Tuesday, Aug 05, 2008 at 11:26
Ken
I would once again blame stress and lack of experience , I would lay a dollar on the table that they were pushing hard trying to maintain 100 kph
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Follow Up By: Crackles - Tuesday, Aug 05, 2008 at 17:52
Tuesday, Aug 05, 2008 at 17:52
".......too much for a toyota hilux gearbox....."
It's not too much for a Hilux gearbox if 4th gear is selected (even pushing to keep up 100kph), that's the whole point. Far too many are concerned with the small fuel consumption gains that can be made in 5th forgetting that the $5000 gearbox repair bill will take a long time to get back at the petrol bowser.
My thinking is that if you need 50% or greater throttle when towing then drop it back to 4th to make it easy for the gearbox.
Cheers Craig................
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Reply By: Gronk - Tuesday, Aug 05, 2008 at 09:49
Tuesday, Aug 05, 2008 at 09:49
Only trouble towing in 4th is the motor revving a bit high when cruising at 120K's....even in 5th its doing 2800rpm ??
Only time it gets as low as 70 to 80 K's is slowing down for a town !!
I suppose when it gets to $2.50 a litre I might have to start thinking of throttling back !!
AnswerID:
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Follow Up By: Dave B (NSW) - Tuesday, Aug 05, 2008 at 20:11
Tuesday, Aug 05, 2008 at 20:11
Let me know where you are going towing at 120k's.
I wanna be a long way from where you are while your doing that.
Dave
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Follow Up By: Gronk - Wednesday, Aug 06, 2008 at 00:07
Wednesday, Aug 06, 2008 at 00:07
Why ,do you think its unsafe to tow at 120K's ??
You better start trying to convince all those interstate truck drivers they're unsafe as
well !!
I only occasionally tow at 120, but always tow at the speed limit, which is usually 100 or 110 ..
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Reply By: Member - kevin Y (SA) - Tuesday, Aug 05, 2008 at 10:07
Tuesday, Aug 05, 2008 at 10:07
your right on about the gearbox --5th gear cog it self is not built to take the strain, found out the hard way as
well, plenty of $$$$$$$$$$ spent,
AnswerID:
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Follow Up By: Member - Doug T NW/Qld - Tuesday, Aug 05, 2008 at 11:28
Tuesday, Aug 05, 2008 at 11:28
kevin
The idea is not to put strain on it , in any gear for that matter
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Follow Up By: Mobi Condo - Tuesday, Aug 05, 2008 at 18:13
Tuesday, Aug 05, 2008 at 18:13
the specs of my 80 series says very clearly that the 5th gear is a CANTILEVER-ed gear - that is it is NOT between two bearings and as such is inherently weak!
So guess what, it does not get used for towing!
Cheers - Mobi
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Reply By: Hairy (NT) - Tuesday, Aug 05, 2008 at 10:30
Tuesday, Aug 05, 2008 at 10:30
Gday Doug,
Im still unsure.....
Sitting on 90km, as someone suggested, 4th would probably be alright. But what if you sit on 120-130? What do think is worse, reving the guts out of your motor or wearing your 5th gear?
I still use 5th and always have.
If fuel economy was an issue I wouldnt have bought a petrol 80 series...
Cheers
AnswerID:
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Reply By: Member - Madfisher - Tuesday, Aug 05, 2008 at 10:53
Tuesday, Aug 05, 2008 at 10:53
I am now on my 6th vehicle with 5 speed boxes and am yet to have to rebuild one. My golden rule is I only tow in fifth if towing less then 800kg, and never use more then HALF THROTLE. Mostly as soon as I get to a
hill its back to 4th. I also think it is more a problem in powerful vehicles eg my old runner did not have enough power to go up
hill empty in fifth, but the jack will fly up most hills. I think that 158kw would destroy a box if you let it.
Cheers Pete
AnswerID:
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Follow Up By: Member - Madfisher - Tuesday, Aug 05, 2008 at 10:54
Tuesday, Aug 05, 2008 at 10:54
Touch wood. lol
Pete
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Reply By: Member - DAZA (QLD) - Tuesday, Aug 05, 2008 at 10:57
Tuesday, Aug 05, 2008 at 10:57
Hi All
When we had the Diesel Hylux, the Owners Manual stated, allways
tow in 4th Gear, it goes on to say better Engine Braking, when
towing.
Cheers
Daza
AnswerID:
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Reply By: Member - Roachie (SA) - Tuesday, Aug 05, 2008 at 11:09
Tuesday, Aug 05, 2008 at 11:09
When I owned a 4.2TD Patrol, it was a no-brainer......the power (or rather the lack of power) dictated that the gearbox needed to stay in 4th cog most of the time when towing.
However, with the extra torque of the 6.5 Chev V8, I have to consciously make myself keep the Patrol in 4th gear. It would do it easily in 5th, but I know that it'd only be a short period of time before 5th would be cactus.
I've overcome the over-revving to a certain extent by fitting 35" tyres, so that in 4th at 100k/h I'm doing about 2200rpm. I do change into 5th when I'm going down gentle hills or have a strong tailwind and then she runs along at 2000rpm at 100k/h.
5th is definitely an overdrive gear only and doesn't like to be stressed out......
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Reply By: Member - Doug T NW/Qld - Tuesday, Aug 05, 2008 at 11:37
Tuesday, Aug 05, 2008 at 11:37
OK all you mob, I can't keep up with replies, but I do read them all, and thanks for your inputs , every driver drives different and every vehicle performs different, Don't it Gone Bush ....HOON ..lol
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Follow Up By: Hairy (NT) - Tuesday, Aug 05, 2008 at 12:31
Tuesday, Aug 05, 2008 at 12:31
Good point Doug,
If I reckon if someone drove my car where and how I do using the 4th gear rule it wouldnt be a good thing.
Likewise if I drove theres in 5th, where and how they do might mave just as expensive consequences
Cheers
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Reply By: Gronk - Tuesday, Aug 05, 2008 at 14:27
Tuesday, Aug 05, 2008 at 14:27
How come only Toyo's and Nissans have this weakness problem with 5th ??
Have any other brands had ANY probs with it ??
Mines got 5 gears and I'm gonna use all of them ( by the way it's a Terracan and still has 3 of the 5yrs warranty left ) and yes it does get a good workout towing a KK around !!
AnswerID:
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Reply By: Member - Mfewster(SA) - Tuesday, Aug 05, 2008 at 18:53
Tuesday, Aug 05, 2008 at 18:53
My
Alice Springs mechanic worked a lot with this gearbox and he had another point to make. He reckoned that the "jiggling" movement transmitted back to the car when towing a heavy trailer also puts a lot of strain on the 5th gear. because of the way it was designed. He recommended using a tregg coupling with a poly block and not using 5th for towing when on corrugated road, or lumpy bitumen, even when level or downhill.
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Reply By: Member - barry F (NSW) - Tuesday, Aug 05, 2008 at 19:47
Tuesday, Aug 05, 2008 at 19:47
I was an advocate of towing in fifth. We tow at about 90 to 95 Kmh. Read the first response by "gone bush". Try it & I think you will confirm that what he states is factual. He made the same comment on this site some time ago. As a result we tried & compared ( for fuel consumption) and as a result we now tow in fourth.
If you want to tow at 110 -120 kmh, do us all a favour and stick to the back roads, or slow down and take in the scenery!! LOL & cheers.
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Follow Up By: Gone Bush (WA) - Wednesday, Aug 06, 2008 at 19:10
Wednesday, Aug 06, 2008 at 19:10
Thanks Barry,
it's good to know that some benefit results from my posts.
cheers
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Reply By: Member - Madfisher - Tuesday, Aug 05, 2008 at 21:30
Tuesday, Aug 05, 2008 at 21:30
One thing I have never been able to work out is why dont vehicle manufacters put in very tall diffs and make 5th direct drive. I think a few highway trucks where built like this. It would be a disadvantage on a 4wd, but then you could have a deeper transfer ratio.
Doug your knowledge of trucks would be far greater then
mine so would welcome your
views.
Cheers Pete
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Follow Up By: Member - Doug T NT - Wednesday, Aug 13, 2008 at 16:03
Wednesday, Aug 13, 2008 at 16:03
Pete
As with trucks they have splitters which can give you a half gear drop that would be handy but you can't even come close to compare 10 / 13 / 15 / 18 speed Roadrangers with a Toyota box.
.
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Reply By: Holden4th - Wednesday, Aug 06, 2008 at 19:06
Wednesday, Aug 06, 2008 at 19:06
Just did my first long range towing experience with a trailer with 100
camp stretchers plus miscellaneous heavy gear. It was fairly heavy.
I've got an NP Di-D auto Pajero with cruise control. On the flat sections heading out west I used crusie control and even the slightest of rises (imperceptible to the naked eye) caused the revs to go up by 200 to about 2200 rpm and then drop back to 2k when it got flat again. I'm assumng that this was the box changing down into 4th. Fuel consumption was not good for an average of 95kph.
I then tried manual CC (my right foot) and got much better results for fuel though I did drive a fraction slower. The vehicle rarely shifted back into 4th gear and felt very comfortable cruising along at 1900 rpm.
Does this mean that I've begun to wreck my transmission or can the Paj handle this? After all, auto is auto and should work
well for the vehicle, shouldn't it?
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Follow Up By: Member - Madfisher - Wednesday, Aug 13, 2008 at 20:39
Wednesday, Aug 13, 2008 at 20:39
Holden 4th Hi,
Most people lock out o/drive in autoboxs when towing heavy loads. I can tell you my ex wife just got a quote to rebuild her 5 speed auto in her paj. $6000.00 ouch!!
Cheers Pete
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