Sunday, Aug 10, 2008 at 15:16
Hi Matt,
Wondered whether or not to make the initial post as I thought this would be the case. Ie people would want more info and I don't blame them. I also thought however that once I said I can't give all the details for various reasons it'd be thought I was making it up. My reasons were to just give a general opinion on a public
forum.
We're in initial stages of dyno testing a range of bio diesels at various ratios. As I'm sure you'd understand there's no way I can release the results, they're not
mine to release. With out doubt though they will eventually be placed in a library (hint). Most research data is eventually in the public domain if you know how to access it (web search, research and library- hint). Not trying to be difficult nor is it a huge secret but at this stage of testing I can't say, no more than others can release info from their work place.
My comments were general in nature and my opinion only. However in saying that I've spoken to various pump repair specialists, engine manufactures, SOS, a government body undertaking long term testing on heavy equipment and various other bodies. So far the results we have show little difference in outputs at low ratio, will know the 100% figures in a few weeks. Emissions are a bit harder to define but hope a better trend will be
forth coming in the weeks/months ahead. Though probably need much better speciality gear to pick up emission differences in the low ratios.
Where I said I'd not use it in my vehicle is based on discussions with the above bodies, and my opinion only. Even the fuel testing labs I've spoken to have said bio is difficult to test as there's no set standard been produced that their comfortable with. It can be directly compared to diesel specs but is that the right thing to do. Other countries are using different standards so which one do you pick. My thoughts were to test compared to diesel but then at what ratio. Tests are around $3k each so can't get B10, B20, B50, B100. Don't forget then the base changes so you'd need the above for all the variations of blends both vegetable and animal, could be hundreds. I think this is one of the big dramas, doesn't sound like there's enough controls. Sure the manufactures will disagree.
Anyhow in a nut shell we're getting dyno results to test performance and emissions. I would have had no knowledge on the quality until I spoke with those that have already undertaken this testing. The guys doing long term testing in earth moving gear told me; each batch they get can have big variations depending on the blend so now they test each batch. They now get limited SOS tests done to at least have an idea of, cloud point, acidity, sediment,
water ratio, etc etc. Though not a full analysis it gives an overview, they said there are sometimes big variations. What's big, I don't at this stage but hope to be involved in more research. In saying that if the quality control is as poor as these people allude I'd not want it in my engine. Not saying it's all crap, how can I, but to me it's telling that a number of groups (not rumours) are telling me even commercial bio tends to vary greatly in quality. Couple to that the growing number of diesel pump failures. A couple of repairers have told me they attribute it to bio. How can they be sure? They tell me it's based on their discussion with the clients. I'm guessing the first thing I'd ask would be do you run bio in your pump, before I started stripping it down. The fuel pump specialists tell me there are some fuel pumps that can't tolerate bio diesel at all. Had to confirm using our engine/pump.
Not sure what you say is right about litigation. The problem is that as far as I'm aware there are no mandatory singular set of standards that bio has to conform to. If you know there is please tell me. If this is right then the onus is on the claimant to prove the fuel caused the damage. Very difficult if there are no defined standards. Whose going to be the first to wear the cost of a court case. I do know though with the engine we use the manufacturer won't give warranty on bio at any ratio. Some will give up to 10% in general. Wonder though how good that is. Ie my fuel pumps stuffed, dealer says it's due to the fuel quality and we won't cover, you need to follow up with the supplier. Supplier says the fuel was tested and ok but the latest
tank of fuel is not the same as the last so you can't do an actual test on it. However we can supply you with our in house test data. Yep you guessed it, you get to foot the bill.
I know this is long winded but hope it answers some questions, I know not what you wanted but best I can do. Again my view is not hearsay but also has a long way to go before real data is out there. Also a long way before real standards are brought to bear on this new industry. That's why I say I won't use it in my vehicle for the long term but probably more so not at high ratios. Maybe a bit unfair to do so, but while it's not my problem if I destroy a fuel pump or engine while testing. It is
mine if it's my vehicle and I don't even what the slightest chance of it happening. Again probably not much chance of a failure with random fills of bio at low ratio but using it for every fill and at high ratios maybe a drama. Sorry I can't answer your specific questions, I've probably said to much anyway. I've tried to give an opinion without shooting myself in the foot by discussing this on a public
forum. If it's not enough or you don't believe me then please feel free to delete the post.
Regards
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