Bullbars !!! Here we go again

Submitted: Sunday, Sep 07, 2008 at 22:35
ThreadID: 61480 Views:4476 Replies:13 FollowUps:7
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BULLBARS will become less dangerous to pedestrians and cyclists if suggested new safety standards are implemented.
However, some of the "pedestrian-friendly" designs may be less effective at protecting vehicles in a head-on strike with a kangaroo or other animal.
After five years of fierce debate, a national committee is close to agreeing on the first voluntary code for "vehicle frontal protection systems" -- bullbars -- as fitted to thousands of cars, utes, 4WDs and trucks.
This follows outcry at the number of people injured or killed when struck by bullbars.
In Europe, the sale of bullbars is being banned because of the danger to pedestrians and cyclists.
New South Wales is the first state to check vehicles for dangerous protrusions such as fishing rod holders, radio aerial mountings, spotlights and winches on bullbars.
The Pedestrian Council of Australia claims "well over 90 per cent" of bullbars do not meet Australian Design Rules and are responsible for up to 20 per cent of pedestrian deaths.
A compromise proposal for an Australian Standard governing bullbars has been worked out by representatives of government, motoring groups, safety bodies, consumer organisations, car companies, bullbar manufacturers and other bodies.
This month they vote on the first part of the proposal -- how to protect other road users -- and the standard is likely to be in place by late this year.
Aggressive battering- ram style bullbars will be out. The approved style is expected to be more rounded, following the contour of the vehicle.
It will be curved upwards so anything hit by the bullbar will go over the vehicle, rather than under it.
Existing bullbars will be allowed to remain.
The Australian Automobile Association's technical services director David Lang said the first priority was to protect other road users, then the vehicle.
"When the majority of bullbars hit anything, it is a pedestrian," he said. "Most aren't fitted in the outback; they're on cars in the cities.
"Getting a standard in place would be a big step for Australia."
RACQ spokesman Gary Fites said bullbars had their place, but "they need to be as benign as possible for pedestrians".
"The days of getting an old iron gate and welding it on the front of the car have well gone," he said.
"No doubt bullbars can be mighty useful. They can save motorists west of the Great Divide a lot of angst and vehicle damage.
"However, we are not encouraging city slickers, or even occasional off-roaders, to fit them to their vehicles."
Pedestrian Council chairman Harold Scruby said the Federal Government should immediately ban "killer-style bullbars" from the roads.
"We're hopeful the standard will come in," he said. "It will be voluntary, and not retrospective, but at least it will be a step in the right direction.
"Clearly, well over 90 per cent of bullbars are against that law.
"It is only a matter of time before someone hit by a car fitted with a bullbar sues the driver, the bullbar maker and the bullbar fitter."


Regards Steve M










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Reply By: Stu & "Bob" - Sunday, Sep 07, 2008 at 22:44

Sunday, Sep 07, 2008 at 22:44
Quote:-
"When the majority of bullbars hit anything, it is a pedestrian," he said. "Most aren't fitted in the outback; they're on cars in the cities."
End quote

Somebody has had a sheltered life......obviously hasn't ever been bush with a comment like that.


My .02
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Reply By: Willem - Sunday, Sep 07, 2008 at 23:31

Sunday, Sep 07, 2008 at 23:31
Tiring stuff, Stephen
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Follow Up By: OzTroopy - Sunday, Sep 07, 2008 at 23:35

Sunday, Sep 07, 2008 at 23:35
Yes it is Willem .....

And as usual, we the ones most affected, will sit back and let the generally, public funded looney fringe groups screw us over again.

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Reply By: Member - Bucky (VIC) - Monday, Sep 08, 2008 at 06:35

Monday, Sep 08, 2008 at 06:35
Boring Boring Boring



Cheers
Bucky
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Reply By: Member - Reiner G (QLD) 4124 - Monday, Sep 08, 2008 at 07:38

Monday, Sep 08, 2008 at 07:38
Just wondering....when they do those statistics how they can tell what would have happen to the people being killed by bullbars if the car didn't have a bullbar?
Would they have walked away?

Reiner
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Reply By: Member - Rodney B- Monday, Sep 08, 2008 at 09:10

Monday, Sep 08, 2008 at 09:10
As an Ambo in Darwin for 19 years I seem to recall that the majority of pedestrians killed or seriously injured, that I attended, were by vehicles without bullbars and often as a result of the pedestrian colliding with the windscreen/roof edge or the road. I agree that bullbars should exclude sharp or projecting points including winch rollers and UHF antenna mounts, and I am sure that manufacturers could make a bullbar far less blunt (and it may take legislation to achieve this) and as a result far less damaging to pedestrians. I have an ARB bar fitted to my cruiser (wouldn't go anywhere without it) but it does have some flaws in it's design, edges where the support curls around the bars, winch faring and rollers protrude forward, top of UHF antenna spring mount at face level etc....
Maybe we should all look at our bars/winch and demand better construction options. We can't hold back the tide of change.
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Follow Up By: Member - Matt M (ACT) - Monday, Sep 08, 2008 at 15:05

Monday, Sep 08, 2008 at 15:05
Rodney,

I think you are spot on.

It is interesting how these debates tend to quickly coalesce into two extreme camps. In this case those who would say, "ban 'em completely", and those who demand the right to fit whatever the hell they want to the front of their vehicle. The 4WDing community (if there is such a thing) would be far better off making concerted efforts to assist in the design of frontal protection systems that meet our needs while still removing any unnecessary danger to pedestrians. You can't eliminate the danger, but a reasonable compromise is surely achievable.

Manufacturers have shown that they are willing to modify designs if the demand is there (witness changes to ensure air bag compatibility), we just need to ensure that the market is there and that 4WD peak groups are involved in helping with new designs and engage groups such as the Pedestrian Council in the process.

Unfortunately, if two interest groups both hold out for the 'all or nothing' option, then someone is going to end up with nothing. If we as a group hold onto one extreme position, then it is difficult to complain when the end result is not to our liking.

As one of my favourite authors says, "Everything that's fun in life is dangerous. Horse races, for instance, are very dangerous. But attempt to design a safe horse and the result is a cow (an appalling animal to watch at the trotters.)"

Get constructively involved in the debate or we will all end up on cows.

Matt.

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Reply By: JR - Monday, Sep 08, 2008 at 09:14

Monday, Sep 08, 2008 at 09:14
"Aggressive battering- ram style bullbars will be out. The approved style is expected to be more rounded, following the contour of the vehicle.
It will be curved upwards so anything hit by the bullbar will go over the vehicle, rather than under it."

Id reckon if a person (or roo) were hit hard enough to go over the vehicle Id suggest they and the vehicle would be dead

This whole pedestrian safety issue is only valid in slow speed accidents, I think a collision over 20-30kmh is considered unsurvivable?

Whilst its all BS there are heaps of people who fit Bullbars who dont need them ("looks cool", "Came with the car", "somewhere to mount lights")
Truth is they are expensive, heavy and cost heaps to have them on there (fuel).

JR
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Follow Up By: unko - Monday, Sep 08, 2008 at 13:38

Monday, Sep 08, 2008 at 13:38
good point there
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Reply By: Member - Beatit (QLD) - Monday, Sep 08, 2008 at 10:08

Monday, Sep 08, 2008 at 10:08
Just a casual observation on my part but I would think that the problem is the vehicle of substantial mass hitting a squishee person that does the damage. I also suspect that that even a Hiunday Getz without a will do that job effectively but if the same person was to step out in front of a semi a lot of the possible survival doubt will be removed.

If they really want to make it safe for pedestrians then they would have a bridge or a tunnel to get to the other side but hey that would cost more than a life is worth so lets make some instead.

I have a confession to make I didn't read the article but I'm sure Harold with his VOLVO off roader is involved somewhere!

Kind regards
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Reply By: disco driver - Monday, Sep 08, 2008 at 12:00

Monday, Sep 08, 2008 at 12:00
Way back in the dim darks (and there will be some here who can remember) nearly all bullbars were constructed from flat bar, usually something like 2"x 3/8.

They were constructed with the edge facing forward and were DEFINITELY not people friendly but they did a good job on roos etc.

AFAIK the army still use them but they don't kill people (very much anyway TIC).

We have come a long way since then.

Those who live in the cities and have never seen what happens when a big animal and a motor vehicle meet head on should think again before condemning bull bars .

More human lives have been saved by bullbars than lost.

Disco.
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Reply By: Mudripper - Monday, Sep 08, 2008 at 12:01

Monday, Sep 08, 2008 at 12:01
Thats another load of male bovine manure, to say the least. Car manufacturers should not install doors to vehicles anymore because of the amount of accidents with people opening doors in front of cyclists and causing severe injuries.

Should we ban doors because people don't know how to use them?

I don't think so.

Companies like ARB and TJM aren't gonna like this.

Common sense isn't common anymore.
AnswerID: 324364

Reply By: Steve63 - Monday, Sep 08, 2008 at 13:55

Monday, Sep 08, 2008 at 13:55
Interesting commentry. The last 4 of five pedestrian deaths I can think of involved sedans not 4wd's. Almost all involved alcohol, should the limit to drive be 0% like semi's? How many pedestrians die a year compared to those in a car? Percentages are dodgey as hell when the numbers are low. 20% of 5 is one! If he wants to save lives ban smoking, It will save more lives in a year than the the next 90 years of pedestian deaths and the next 450 years of pedestrian deaths due to bull bars. If I remember correctly smoking contributes to 18,000 deaths a year. Apologies to smokers but a bit of perspective! Interesting point is that in 1985 there were over 500 pedestrian deaths, not that many bull bars in the city then!

OK just looked up the stats, 201 of road deaths were pedestrians. Even using the 20% (of what based on what who knows) that is 40 involved a bull bar. 7 of these were hit by a bus. 18 were hit by a truck. Both likely to have a bull bar. Ok down to 15. OK 18,000 on one hand 15 on the other????
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Follow Up By: JR - Monday, Sep 08, 2008 at 14:15

Monday, Sep 08, 2008 at 14:15
Of that 15, how many were BECAUSE of the bullbar or hit by a car WITH a bullbar
ie they would have been killed even if the car didnt have one

JR
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Follow Up By: Steve63 - Monday, Sep 08, 2008 at 14:43

Monday, Sep 08, 2008 at 14:43
The stats published do not have that amount of detail. They may have been killed in a reversing accident. Common for elderly and toddlers. Friends father wqas killed a few years ago in a low speed accident by being reversed into (slowly) by an excel. He just hit his head the wrong way when he fell. It is still a pedestrian accident. It is like how many pepole don't die because they have a bull bar. Or even how many animal strikes are there a year. Unmeasurable because an animal strike is not usually reported unless an insurance claim is likely. But the piles of carrion alongside the road should give some insite! You have to remember what this data is for. There hase been a big decrease in the incident of young male driver fatality over the last year because it was being targeted in ad campains etc.
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Reply By: young_codger - Monday, Sep 08, 2008 at 19:37

Monday, Sep 08, 2008 at 19:37
I've hit more roos than pedestrians with my bullbar.

The fact is if you hit anything with a car, you're going to hurt it in a big way anyway!!
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Reply By: Member Jo (Bris) - Monday, Sep 08, 2008 at 22:03

Monday, Sep 08, 2008 at 22:03
Don't walk into my bullbar and you won't get hurt...
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Follow Up By: Waynepd (NSW) - Tuesday, Sep 09, 2008 at 21:19

Tuesday, Sep 09, 2008 at 21:19
Spot on Jo
How many injuries are caused by walking into tow bars in parking lots. Me at least three times.....ouchies....ban those bloody things too....

And while they're at it why not add to the list of dangerous bars
Public Bars
Gay bars
Mars Bars
Sand Bars
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Follow Up By: Member Jo (Bris) - Tuesday, Sep 09, 2008 at 21:23

Tuesday, Sep 09, 2008 at 21:23
Yeh definately the tow bars!
The shins have been smashed too many times!!!
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Reply By: Member - Mark E (VIC) - Tuesday, Sep 09, 2008 at 10:16

Tuesday, Sep 09, 2008 at 10:16
I HAVE THE PERFECT SOLUTION

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I just have to make sure I hit the pedestrians right in the middle!

:-)

Mark

AnswerID: 324495

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