Battery setup -Hypothetical

Just wanted to run this one past the forum guru's

If I had a Vehicle with a 100amp Alternator and under the bonnet was fitted:-

- main starter battery N70zz
- 120amp dual battery isolator
- second battery -also N70zz

(but wait there's more)

- a 120ah AGM battery in the back beside storage drawers
- and Anderson plug running to a caravan

AND

in the caravan
3 x 120ah AGM batteries

Would this be an auto electricians nightmare, a fire hazard, or possible with some fine tuning??

Cheers



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Reply By: _gmd_pps - Thursday, Nov 06, 2008 at 17:47

Thursday, Nov 06, 2008 at 17:47
It's not difficult.. just a matter how well you want to treat your AGMs with only and car alternator to charge and also how fast you want to charge the AGMs.. If you use the batteries a lot your alternator will have to work hard.

I have a second 160amp alternator with a Balmar Maxcharge external 3 stage regulator for my AGMs because I want them to live a bit longer.

good luck
gmd
AnswerID: 333934

Follow Up By: Supercalafreakinawesome- Thursday, Nov 06, 2008 at 17:53

Thursday, Nov 06, 2008 at 17:53
Thanks gmd,
Not much room for another alternator but at least that gives me a place to start.

Cheers
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FollowupID: 601734

Follow Up By: RV Powerstream P/L - Friday, Nov 07, 2008 at 18:35

Friday, Nov 07, 2008 at 18:35
gmd

I like it someone that has taken the time to research and understand the shortfalls and the Balmar is a good Unit .

The only thing is the potential of no fallback reg if the Balmar fails.

You at least can have FULLY CHARGED BATTERIES FROM TRAVELLING and getting the best benefit from the fuel you are paying for anyway.
Regards
Ian
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FollowupID: 601872

Follow Up By: _gmd_pps - Friday, Nov 07, 2008 at 21:01

Friday, Nov 07, 2008 at 21:01
true, but it is easy to hook up a temp regulator.
I did look at the Sterling unit doing a 3 stage charge with an internally regulated alternator or even from another battery, but the OZ importer is a total dud and the unit is quite expensive. The main reason I did not buy is that they are very inflexible with their shipping policy. I just can't be bothered with such businesses. I had
the Balmar first, but still was willing to purchase the Sterling unit, but with their ignorance I figured I might have a hard time when I need warranty or repair, so I left it with the Balmar.

It isn't that difficult to setup a good system but it is quite pricey to use top end components even if you bring them in from the US with a good exchange rate. I purchased everything in the US including my batteries. The yanks still built the best AGM batteries.

have fun
gmd

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FollowupID: 601890

Reply By: Member - 1/2A - Thursday, Nov 06, 2008 at 18:18

Thursday, Nov 06, 2008 at 18:18
I have 2x120 amp/hr AGM's with a 40amp three stage charger and with a 75% charge state they will draw the full 40amps. AGM's have a lower internal resistance and thus will grab most of your output and also need 14.7v to get to a full charge
AnswerID: 333937

Follow Up By: ob - Thursday, Nov 06, 2008 at 18:35

Thursday, Nov 06, 2008 at 18:35
1/2A

I also have 2x105 ah AGM's for camping and 2x N70ZZ crankers with a isolating switch. If the AGM's have a lower internal resistance I assume they would charge first as you stated. Once they were fully charged wouldnt the charging current then be taken by the N70,s once again assuming that the vehicle was run long enough?

Not trying to start an argument, a genuine ask. :-))

Cheers ob
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FollowupID: 601746

Follow Up By: Member - 1/2A - Thursday, Nov 06, 2008 at 19:53

Thursday, Nov 06, 2008 at 19:53
Trying to charge dissimilar batteries is very difficult as I said the internal resistance is different and remains different through out the charge cycle and the only way to over come this is by isolation. One way to accomplish this would be to put a DC to DC converter between the system and the AGM battery array this would also allow you to charge the AGM's at the correct voltage (14.7). Remember that it is very important with the 3X120 AGM's that they are wired up correctly so that the voltage is in parallel but the current flow through the batteries is in series.
If you require a wiring diagram PM me and I'll see what I can do.
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FollowupID: 601755

Follow Up By: Member - Mike DID - Thursday, Nov 06, 2008 at 20:33

Thursday, Nov 06, 2008 at 20:33
"Once they were fully charged wouldnt the charging current then be taken by the N70,s once again assuming that the vehicle was run long enough? "
- yes.

An AGM Battery will charge fully with 13.6 volts applied, it'll just take longer than if you apply 14.4 volts. Read the battery manufacturer's data sheet.
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FollowupID: 601761

Follow Up By: Member - 1/2A - Friday, Nov 07, 2008 at 16:06

Friday, Nov 07, 2008 at 16:06
FULLRIVER AGM CHARGING INSTRUCTIONS
FULLRIVER AGM batteries are totally sealed and do not require maintenance.
However, over-charging or under-charging can result in a shorter then expected service life of a FULLRIVER AGM
battery. The best protection from charging damage is the use of a quality charger and routinely check the voltage
of the system to ensure that the charger settings are maintained.
So yes Mike you can charge at a lower voltage but your battery just won't last as long.
So to look after your battery bulk charge =14.7v and float=13.7v

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FollowupID: 601854

Follow Up By: Member - Mike DID - Friday, Nov 07, 2008 at 16:38

Friday, Nov 07, 2008 at 16:38
You really need to learn how to interpret manufacturer's data.

Float = 13.7 volts means that they recommend 13.7 as a charging voltage - as I said above - it'll just take longer than 14.4 volt.

Even the manufacturer's data sheet shows that this will charge a battery FULLY within 6 hours. This charging time will have NO impact on battery life.

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FollowupID: 601857

Follow Up By: Member - 1/2A - Friday, Nov 07, 2008 at 17:08

Friday, Nov 07, 2008 at 17:08
So what you are saying you don't need a 3 stage charger to get a longer life out of battery and charge them at 13.6v. obviously you have not heard of sulfating and how to reduce it.
As I've said before I charge via a three stage charger or via a good solar regulator to reduce sulfating.
It's really strange that if I leave my batteries on a float charge for a month at 13.7v and then plug in the solar panel I get a extra 10amp/hrs.
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FollowupID: 601860

Follow Up By: Member - Mike DID - Friday, Nov 07, 2008 at 17:27

Friday, Nov 07, 2008 at 17:27
The benefits of a 3-stage charger are -
- it will charge your battery as fast as possible (remember I wrote that 13.7 volts will charge it more slowly, but still fully)
- it will limit current to a safe value if the battery has been discharged more than 50% (13.7 volts starting will also limit teh current)

Sulphation starts whenever a battery is at less than 100% charge, because the Lead and LeadOxide are changed to Lead Sulphate. Taking 6 hours to charge an AGM battery is not enough time to cause any sulphation.

Read the Manufacturer's Data Sheets - you can fully charge an AGM battery at 13.6 volts.
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FollowupID: 601861

Follow Up By: Maîneÿ (wa) - Friday, Nov 07, 2008 at 23:27

Friday, Nov 07, 2008 at 23:27
1/2A you say: "It's really strange that if I leave my batteries on a float charge for a month @ 13.7v and then plug in the solar panel I get a extra 10 amp/hrs"

When the AGM's are left on any charger that can *maintain* 13.7 Volts continuously, and that is what is happening at 'float' level of 13.7v it's only surface voltage, because it's supplied & measured externally, from the charger.

How do you actually measure the "extra 10 amp/hrs" you believe is created (some how) by the Solar panel ??

Mainey . . .
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FollowupID: 601923

Follow Up By: Member - Mike DID - Saturday, Nov 08, 2008 at 09:31

Saturday, Nov 08, 2008 at 09:31
Just because 10 amphours has gone into the battery doesn't mean that the stored capacity has increased by 10 amphours.

In fact the reduced charge efficiency as batteries approach full charge, is a recognised problem where batteries are usually kept near full capacity, but the solar panels aren't rated to supply enough current at thh reduced charge efficiency.

The energy going into a battery can also be lost as heat, or as electrolysis in a wetcell, rather than being chemically converted to available charge.

To quote from Collyn Rivers latest excellent CamperTrailer book - "The AGM's great advantage for campertrailer use, is its ability to accept a charge rapidly and close to 100% from 13.8 - 14.7 volts"
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FollowupID: 601945

Follow Up By: Member - 1/2A - Saturday, Nov 08, 2008 at 10:20

Saturday, Nov 08, 2008 at 10:20
I have two 75watt solar panels controlled by a ProStar regulator made by Morningstar its a four stage charger and one of the charge stages pulses the battery by as much as a volt during the last stage of charging. This pulse charge returnes the battery to full charge. The battery also requires an equalization charge every month of 14.9v to help reduce sulphate build up. I have a Xantrex battery monitor fitted which calculates everything going into and out of the battery via a shunt, it has various readouts and one of them is amp/hours. So after I left the batteries on charge for a month using the three stage AC charger and then used the solar system for four hours the battery monitor showed an increase of 10amp/hr.
I have never been able to get a full charge into my batteries via the alternator in the car the best I get is 96%. I have run 10mm cables and there is no voltage drop between the car and the batteries and the supplied voltage is 14.2v. On a recent trip from Dimboola the charge state was 86% when I left and after a four hour trip home at 14.2v the charge state was 96%.
Have a look at the Fridge and Solar web site Val has real good information on batteries charged by motor vehicles.
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FollowupID: 601950

Follow Up By: Member - 1/2A - Saturday, Nov 08, 2008 at 10:26

Saturday, Nov 08, 2008 at 10:26
The link failed to work above so it is again.
Fridge and Solar
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FollowupID: 601952

Follow Up By: ExplorOz - David & Michelle - Saturday, Nov 08, 2008 at 17:16

Saturday, Nov 08, 2008 at 17:16
In relation to why the insert link is not working - this is due to the particular link - it uses the word fridge which is being overridden by a custom keyword ad campaign. Sorry 'bout that! Other links will work provided they don't contain one of the custom keywords purchased by advertisers. Looks like another job for David next week.

MM
David (DM) & Michelle (MM)
---------------------------------
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Follow Up By: Member - 1/2A - Saturday, Nov 08, 2008 at 17:27

Saturday, Nov 08, 2008 at 17:27
Thanks for that David it's funny that it works in the preview.
Arthur
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Reply By: Member - Serg (VIC) - Thursday, Nov 06, 2008 at 18:34

Thursday, Nov 06, 2008 at 18:34
Voltage drop to 3-rd battery in the back of your car and especially in caravan will be substantial. Thus step-up charger highly recommended if you like to make most of your batteries in terms of their longevity and ability to charge them in full.

Cheers
Serg
AnswerID: 333941

Follow Up By: Supercalafreakinawesome- Thursday, Nov 06, 2008 at 19:30

Thursday, Nov 06, 2008 at 19:30
Serg,
The van has a 10amp 3 stage switch mode charger in it, is that what you mean by a stup up charger?

Cheers
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FollowupID: 601752

Follow Up By: oldtrack123 - Thursday, Nov 06, 2008 at 20:47

Thursday, Nov 06, 2008 at 20:47
Hi Super
A 10amp charger will take quite awhile to charge 360 ahs of heavily discharged bats & I asume it is a 240v charger Not a step up from 12v such as ARRID or similar.
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FollowupID: 601766

Follow Up By: Member - Serg (VIC) - Thursday, Nov 06, 2008 at 22:28

Thursday, Nov 06, 2008 at 22:28
To Supercalafreakinawesome
Yep, this is what I have been talking about (switch-mode = step-up)

To oldtrack123
Yes, 10A takes *QUITE A WHILE* t fully charge massive 360AH battery. But nothing here can be done except of upgrading your 10A charger to 20-30-40 one and pay a lots for that. Unfortunately it is very difficult have even something for nothing and have everything for nothing absolutely impossible.

Cheers
Serg
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FollowupID: 601793

Follow Up By: Supercalafreakinawesome- Thursday, Nov 06, 2008 at 23:04

Thursday, Nov 06, 2008 at 23:04
Thanks Serg.
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Reply By: Top End Explorer Tours - Thursday, Nov 06, 2008 at 19:38

Thursday, Nov 06, 2008 at 19:38
The unit will do the job as far as I understand, but as my learned friend Crazy Dog pointed out earlier this year that a 3rd battery in the back of the car is no good for the occupants health wise, unless of coarse the battery is going in the back of a ute.

Cheers Steve.
AnswerID: 333947

Follow Up By: Supercalafreakinawesome- Thursday, Nov 06, 2008 at 22:20

Thursday, Nov 06, 2008 at 22:20
Thanks steve,
wasn't aware agm's created problems as well.

Cheers
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FollowupID: 601791

Follow Up By: Dunaruna - Friday, Nov 07, 2008 at 07:11

Friday, Nov 07, 2008 at 07:11
Any LA battery has the potential to vent hydrogen gas. There is no such thing as a 'fully sealed' LA battery.
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FollowupID: 601819

Follow Up By: RV Powerstream P/L - Friday, Nov 07, 2008 at 18:51

Friday, Nov 07, 2008 at 18:51
In a proper charging regime with temperature compensation the potential of gassing would be rare in good quality AGMs and Gels but could still happen with a developed cell fault.
Regards
Ian
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FollowupID: 601876

Follow Up By: Dunaruna - Friday, Nov 07, 2008 at 22:59

Friday, Nov 07, 2008 at 22:59
I agree, it rare, but it's false advertising to say a LA battery is fully sealed. All so called fully sealed AGMs or GELs have discharge valves, to advertise them as fully sealed implies that they are safe inside a passenger compartment, which they are not.
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FollowupID: 601920

Follow Up By: Maîneÿ (wa) - Friday, Nov 07, 2008 at 23:33

Friday, Nov 07, 2008 at 23:33
Just a question, relevant to the gassing (or not) of AGM's?

If they (some better quality ones) are NOT fully sealed - how come they can be used UPSIDE DOWN or under water or on their end or their side without any damage or problem with warranty ??

As I say, it's just a question :-))

Mainey . . .
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FollowupID: 601925

Follow Up By: Dunaruna - Saturday, Nov 08, 2008 at 08:40

Saturday, Nov 08, 2008 at 08:40
If you know of a brand that does not have a regulation valve I have customers ready and waiting.
When the valve is closed, they are sealed. When the valve is open, they are not sealed.

I agree that it is rare, the build & component quality aleviates much of the gas build up issues, but it can happen.

The fact that they can be used upsidedown has no bearing on the issue of venting into a passenger compartment.





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FollowupID: 601939

Follow Up By: Maîneÿ (wa) - Saturday, Nov 08, 2008 at 10:57

Saturday, Nov 08, 2008 at 10:57
Dunaruna,
If some AGM's are NOT fully sealed - how can they be used *UPSIDE DOWN* or *under water* or *on their end* or *on their side* without any damage such as loosing gas or electrolyte, or have any problems with their warranty due to being used in the above (unusual) positions ??

it's just an UN-answered question !!

Mainey . . .
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FollowupID: 601957

Follow Up By: Dunaruna - Saturday, Nov 08, 2008 at 11:55

Saturday, Nov 08, 2008 at 11:55
I re-read my post and i don't understand why you say the question is un-answered.

The types of batteries you are reffering to can be mounted any which way you please, I agree with you, no issue there.

The topic of this line of followups is the issue of mounting a battery inside a passenger compartment, specifically, the venting of dangerous gases. Doesn't matter which way a battery is mounted, if the valve opens, it will vent hydrogen gas. When the valve is open, the battery is not sealed.

I don't know how to explain it in simpler terms, sorry.
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FollowupID: 601970

Reply By: oldtrack123 - Thursday, Nov 06, 2008 at 20:40

Thursday, Nov 06, 2008 at 20:40
Hi
All things are possible IF you go to enough trouble &$$$$
You are talking about 480ahs of deep cycle bats with a 100amp alternator, unless you use very heavy cables ,& specialised chargers they will take alooong time to charge if heavily discharged.
I know it is not the question you asked but I think you should be giving some information on your intended use ie heavy power req for a short time with long trips in between or lower power for a long time?.
The main thing is to get a balanced system based on intended use
AnswerID: 333961

Follow Up By: Supercalafreakinawesome- Thursday, Nov 06, 2008 at 21:57

Thursday, Nov 06, 2008 at 21:57
Hi,
The aim is to have the vehicle set up so we can unhook the van and head into the scrub with a tent etc and still be reasonably self sufficient - run a 50litre fridge, some LED's, so the 120ah battery in the 4x will be aimed at this.

Probably not more than 6 days in one place (have a portable 80w solar panel to top up with when necessary along with running the vehicle while driving around playing tourist.

For the van..... up to 7 days away from 240 power. Have an 80w solar panel fitted to the van (can hook up the portable panel as well).

I thought that the charger was 10amp but just had a look and its a 15amp 3 stage switch mode charger (doh).

The van has a 150litre 2door fridge freezer, and we also put the 50litre fridge back in the van when stopped anywhere. We have a 2.4kw generator (last resort only).

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FollowupID: 601788

Follow Up By: oldtrack123 - Thursday, Nov 06, 2008 at 22:30

Thursday, Nov 06, 2008 at 22:30
Hi
:"The van has a 150litre 2door fridge freezer, and we also put the 50litre fridge back in the van when stopped anywhere. We have a 2.4kw generator (last resort only)"
Is it 240v , gas or 12v
With that size electric electric fridge freezer in the van, even if compressor type & with a lot of bat capacity you are going to need to keep the genny in good condition ,it will get a lot of work.
A 80w solar will in bright sun give you about 24 < 30 max a/hs per day.
Depending on a lot of variabes , ambient temp in van, door opening frequency & length of time opened ,thermo seting, warm goods being put into fridge etc the actual fridge running time could be quite high 50%+ this will determine more than any thing how long your bats will last without being over dicharged [ie below 30% capacity] which is the lowest they should be taken for long life.
I would also suggest you fit a low voltage cut out[ over discharge protector] to the system to give the bats some protection
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FollowupID: 601794

Follow Up By: Supercalafreakinawesome- Thursday, Nov 06, 2008 at 23:02

Thursday, Nov 06, 2008 at 23:02
Thanks Oldtrack,
the fridge is Vitrifigo 12volt only, will take on board the cut out etc and hopefully end up with a workable system.
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FollowupID: 601797

Follow Up By: Maîneÿ (wa) - Friday, Nov 07, 2008 at 16:38

Friday, Nov 07, 2008 at 16:38
The point many people miss is, if/when you have heaps of battery capacity, (multiple batteries) you only loose a very small (%) percentage of the battery bank on a daily basis, when compared to the 'usual' single (DC) battery system, whereby you diminish the capacity to close to or at the cut-out voltage of 11.5v. (assuming they use a Voltage cut-out switch)

When you charge the 'large' battery bank it actually only needs 'topping up' and does this with absolute ease, even with a very small capacity alternator of 50 amp.

This is another valid reason why larger (DC) battery banks last so much longer than single (DC) batteries.

(An 80 watt Solar panel is a bit on the small side to maintain the items nominated)

Mainey . . .
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FollowupID: 601858

Follow Up By: oldtrack123 - Friday, Nov 07, 2008 at 22:47

Friday, Nov 07, 2008 at 22:47
Hi Super
"We have a 2.4kw generator (last resort only). "

The usual 12v outlet on most gennys are not much good for battery charging[voltage output too low].& probably low current too.
Much more efficient to charge battery with a decent sized 240v charger.{exxy $ tho]
"15amp 3 stage switch mode charger" I gather this is a 240v unit if so would be the way to top up if needed.
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FollowupID: 601918

Reply By: Michael ( Moss Vale NSW) - Thursday, Nov 06, 2008 at 21:00

Thursday, Nov 06, 2008 at 21:00
Is it better to keep the vehicle simple and lighter and also there is the cost of replacing all the batteries at the same time..Nothing wrong with dual batteries and is it better to buy a small generator to get you going if you run out of battery power rather that the third battery option?? Something like a Christie Engineering unit or a tiny generator.. Michael
AnswerID: 333964

Follow Up By: Maîneÿ (wa) - Friday, Nov 07, 2008 at 23:36

Friday, Nov 07, 2008 at 23:36
What's the weight and also the price $$$ difference between a "Christie Engineering unit" generator and an extra 200AH battery ??

Mainey . . .

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FollowupID: 601926

Reply By: Member - Roachie (SA) - Thursday, Nov 06, 2008 at 21:13

Thursday, Nov 06, 2008 at 21:13
I have a somewhat similar set-up (almost).

The Chev 6.5 V8 sports a 85 amp alternator.
Under the bonnet resides one Supercharge N70ZZ battery. A very heavy cable runs through a piece of reinforced hose from that battery to the cargo box on the back of the Patrol's dual cab. That heavy cable leads to another N70ZZ Supercharge. There is NO gizmos of any sort between those 2 batteries.

Now, from the original front battery, there is a reasonably heavy cable (8mm I think) that goes via a relay, which is switched when the ignition is on. That cable also goes to the box where it enters a small plastic junction box. From the junction box I have run 2 smaller cables (6mm sq). One of those 6mm cables goes into the cargo box and powers up an Arrid Twin Charge that is connected to the Fullriver 120a/h AGM, which runs the accessories on the Patrol (fridge, Maxair, HF, inverter, side lights, rear lights etc).

The other 6mm cable runs to the 12 pin Narva trailer plug. On the camper trailer a similar sized wire goes to another Arrid Twin Charger which is connected to the Supercharge N70ZZ batteries that are used to power the camper's fridge, water pump and lights.

I have a couple of other heavy use items attached to the 2nd starter battery in the cargo box; a large Grande Boss compressor and 4 x Lightforce 170 spot lights mounted on the roof.

It all works very well and the alternator doesn't seem to struggle at all.

Cheers

Roachie
AnswerID: 333968

Follow Up By: Bonz (Vic) - Thursday, Nov 06, 2008 at 21:36

Thursday, Nov 06, 2008 at 21:36
Roachie I lost count of the batteries mate, is there FIVE?
.
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Follow Up By: Member - Roachie (SA) - Thursday, Nov 06, 2008 at 21:39

Thursday, Nov 06, 2008 at 21:39
Spot on Bonz...... I don't know why Lucy says you're dumb!!!!! hahahahaha
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FollowupID: 601781

Follow Up By: Bonz (Vic) - Thursday, Nov 06, 2008 at 21:42

Thursday, Nov 06, 2008 at 21:42
I know Roachie, I know, youve just got to get to know me
.
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Follow Up By: Supercalafreakinawesome- Thursday, Nov 06, 2008 at 22:05

Thursday, Nov 06, 2008 at 22:05
Thanks Roachie,
sounds reasonably straight forward and very effective.

Cheers
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FollowupID: 601790

Reply By: Maîneÿ (wa) - Friday, Nov 07, 2008 at 09:58

Friday, Nov 07, 2008 at 09:58
- main *starter* battery N70zz
- 120amp dual battery isolator <-- between 2 x Cranking batteries batteries ??
- second battery - also N70zz <-- What is it for ?????

this is my only 'problem' with the set-up

Mainey . . .
AnswerID: 334022

Follow Up By: Supercalafreakinawesome- Friday, Nov 07, 2008 at 20:07

Friday, Nov 07, 2008 at 20:07
Thanks Mainey

Second N70zz under the bonnet is there for the winch and a few accessories such as UHF, reversing camera etc.

Cheers
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