Batter Isolator Solenoid heat

Submitted: Friday, Jan 16, 2009 at 14:19
ThreadID: 65176 Views:2960 Replies:8 FollowUps:39
This Thread has been Archived
Just how hot should a battery isolator solenoid get?

I have a normal solenoid worth about $40. I have an On/Off dash mounted switch.

Yesterday when I was working on the wiring and after going into the village for a drive, I noticed that the solenoid was quite hot. I had the auxilliary battery on charge. Todai I trsted this agin and after a 10km run it was OK but by the time I got home it was hot again.

I Googled Solenoid heat build up and it does seem that there is quite a bit of heat floating around in the small chamber.

The Solenoid works well.

Any ideas?


Cheers
Back Expand Un-Read 0 Moderator

Reply By: Time - Friday, Jan 16, 2009 at 14:37

Friday, Jan 16, 2009 at 14:37
Redarc claim that temps up to 70c are normal. I know from experience that mine would get too hot to touch, but never a problem over 5 years of use.

To quote the Redarc Website "It is normal for these products to run hot. A high current solenoid requires a high power pull-in on the coil to ensure a sound, reliable contact. This results in heat dissipated in the case".
AnswerID: 344626

Reply By: oldtrack123 - Friday, Jan 16, 2009 at 14:47

Friday, Jan 16, 2009 at 14:47
Hi Willem
Many solenoids re not designed for continuous duty & CAN OVERHEAT & BURN OUT OVER TIME ESPECIALLY IF NOT GETTING GOOD VENTILATION. You should check if the one you have is continuously rated.
Redarc & others designed for such work should be ok, but still should not be fitted where there is no ventilation.
AnswerID: 344627

Follow Up By: oldtrack123 - Friday, Jan 16, 2009 at 14:54

Friday, Jan 16, 2009 at 14:54
Hi Willem
I should add that the amount of heat it can tolerate depends on the type of winding insulation used. high quality insulation can tolerate heat up to 70deg c.
Cheaper low quality insulation will not have a long life @ that temp.
Again you need to know if it is suitable for continious duty.
0
FollowupID: 612565

Reply By: autosparky - Friday, Jan 16, 2009 at 18:56

Friday, Jan 16, 2009 at 18:56
those type solenoids will get hot especially if one battery is more discharged than the other . sometimes the contacts in the solenoid will wear and not seat properly(through continuous use)and the current flowing thru the contacts will generate some heat
AnswerID: 344675

Follow Up By: Willem - Friday, Jan 16, 2009 at 20:08

Friday, Jan 16, 2009 at 20:08
G'day autosparky

Thanks

See my reply to Derek below.



Cheers
0
FollowupID: 612627

Follow Up By: oldtrack123 - Friday, Jan 16, 2009 at 22:07

Friday, Jan 16, 2009 at 22:07
Hi
Auto sparky said
"sometimes the contacts in the solenoid will wear and not seat properly(through continuous use)and the current flowing thru the contacts will generate some heat"
I would suggest that if it is generating too hot to touch heat as differant to warm. due to contact resistance then you will be loosing a lot of voltage to your aux battery & it will not charge to a very high level
0
FollowupID: 612655

Follow Up By: Willem - Friday, Jan 16, 2009 at 22:41

Friday, Jan 16, 2009 at 22:41
>I would suggest that if it is generating too hot to touch heat as differant to warm. due to contact resistance then you will be loosing a lot of voltage to your aux battery & it will not charge to a very high level<

Oldtrrack

But it is not losing a lot of voltage. As per usual at idle the main battery could be charging at 13.69 volts while the auxiliary batter charges at 13.67 volts or thereabouts


Cheers
0
FollowupID: 612662

Follow Up By: oldtrack123 - Friday, Jan 16, 2009 at 23:02

Friday, Jan 16, 2009 at 23:02
Hi Wilem
OK that indicates it is not contact resistance[ dirty /burnt ], BUT coil heat which is what I was realy refering to regarding being suItable for continious duty.
0
FollowupID: 612669

Reply By: ABR - SIDEWINDER - Friday, Jan 16, 2009 at 19:56

Friday, Jan 16, 2009 at 19:56
Hi Willem

Solenoids run a coil and these get quite hot after a few hours and this is quite normal. To ensure the heat is only from the coil and not faulty contacts do a voltage test on each side of the solenoid while engaged and charging the battery.

Make sure the voltage on input and output is very similar. Ideally no more than 0.1-0.2 Volts while working hard. Also the studs are hotter than the solenoid body this is a sure sign of voltage drop through the contacts or a loose connection.

Regards

Derek from ABR
AnswerID: 344683

Follow Up By: Willem - Friday, Jan 16, 2009 at 20:06

Friday, Jan 16, 2009 at 20:06
Thanks for your contribution, Derek

Yes, there is just a slight drop in voltage. Solenoid working fine. It is only a basic model and I expect about 2 to 3 years life from it. Never had cause to touch it after charging the auxilliary battery before hence the question.


Cheers
0
FollowupID: 612626

Reply By: Maîneÿ (wa) - Friday, Jan 16, 2009 at 20:55

Friday, Jan 16, 2009 at 20:55
Umm, it is said HEAT is relevant to some voltage loss ?

Electronic isolators don't cause overheating.

Mainey . . .
AnswerID: 344697

Follow Up By: Willem - Friday, Jan 16, 2009 at 22:35

Friday, Jan 16, 2009 at 22:35
Huh?
0
FollowupID: 612660

Follow Up By: Maîneÿ (wa) - Saturday, Jan 17, 2009 at 12:47

Saturday, Jan 17, 2009 at 12:47
Willem,
You post: "Huh?"

is it because you don't understand the question ?

Mainey . . .

0
FollowupID: 612718

Follow Up By: Willem - Saturday, Jan 17, 2009 at 14:25

Saturday, Jan 17, 2009 at 14:25
Mainy

Yes.... What you wrote.

>Umm, it is said HEAT is relevant to some voltage loss ?Electronic isolators don't cause overheating<

Now what has Overheating got to do with anything? Did you mean exceptional heat or did you mean overheating elsewhere in the circuit?

Hence the Huh?

Sometimes we mean well in what we say, but it may not make sense...LOL

Derek above, summed it up.


Cheers
0
FollowupID: 612728

Follow Up By: Maîneÿ (wa) - Saturday, Jan 17, 2009 at 15:21

Saturday, Jan 17, 2009 at 15:21
Maîneÿ (wa) replied:
" Umm, it is said HEAT is relevant to some voltage loss ? "

Willem, I've simply asked a question
this is very evident by the question mark :-> " ? " <-:
placed at the end of the sentence, I was seeking an answer

It's simply asking, ' is heat relevant to some Voltage loss ? '


Maybe I should have asked a long winded question like:
Is it actually true that any HEAT that is generated with-in a 12v electrical circuit, by the consumption of electrical current to operate a device, is shown as a Voltage loss on the relevant 12v meter, with-in that same circuit ??

Mainey . . .
0
FollowupID: 612739

Follow Up By: Willem - Saturday, Jan 17, 2009 at 15:24

Saturday, Jan 17, 2009 at 15:24
There ya go, Mainy

You are getting the hang of it.....hahahahahahaha
0
FollowupID: 612742

Follow Up By: Bonz (Vic) - Respectfully- Saturday, Jan 17, 2009 at 21:44

Saturday, Jan 17, 2009 at 21:44
Mainey isnt the heat associated with the solenoid circuit and not the thru circuit?
.
Time is an illusion produced by the passage of history
.

Lifetime Member
My Profile  My Blog  My Position  Send Message
Moderator

0
FollowupID: 612803

Follow Up By: Maîneÿ (wa) - Sunday, Jan 18, 2009 at 01:28

Sunday, Jan 18, 2009 at 01:28
Willem posted:
" Yesterday when I was working on the wiring and after going into the village for a drive, I noticed that the *solenoid* was quite hot. "
So in Williams case the mechanical 'solenoid' is hot, he has not commented on the cables or fittings.

Mainey . . .
0
FollowupID: 612834

Follow Up By: Willem - Sunday, Jan 18, 2009 at 08:12

Sunday, Jan 18, 2009 at 08:12
Mainy

If you need to discuss this further we can do it off forum. You may contact me willem@kempen.id.au.

Who is Williams?
0
FollowupID: 612850

Follow Up By: Bonz (Vic) - Respectfully- Sunday, Jan 18, 2009 at 08:22

Sunday, Jan 18, 2009 at 08:22
Thats correct Mainey. The solenoid has the main contacts and it has a coil arrangement that has moving gizmo's and stuff that holds the main contacts closed when activated. Its the coils etc that emit the heat. The main contacts shouldnt emit any heat at all neither should they have any voltage drop across them...

You know that Mainey, you're just pulling my leg aren't you?
.
Time is an illusion produced by the passage of history
.

Lifetime Member
My Profile  My Blog  My Position  Send Message
Moderator

0
FollowupID: 612853

Follow Up By: Maîneÿ (wa) - Sunday, Jan 18, 2009 at 10:44

Sunday, Jan 18, 2009 at 10:44
Willem,
Woops, sorry yes I’ve misspelt 'your name', purely by accident so please accept my sincere apologies, as I assure you there was no malice intended.

As Wayne has stated below, your solenoid does appear to be incorrectly installed. Image Could Not Be FoundWhen this is corrected I'm sure some of your problems will be remedied.

Bonz,
You post: " The main contacts shouldnt emit any heat at all neither should they have any voltage drop across them... "

Yes, the *main contacts* are situated inside the metal solenoid case, as you say the majority of heat is produced from the coil windings, the *main contacts* only give problems when they get pitted, similar to the 'points' in an old EH (Holden) which had to be 'serviced' regularly, but in a solenoid they can't be because the solenoid is sealed, so it simply looses efficiency.
As to your leg, Umm only you know the answer to that :-)

Mainey . . .
0
FollowupID: 612869

Follow Up By: Bonz (Vic) - Respectfully- Sunday, Jan 18, 2009 at 10:47

Sunday, Jan 18, 2009 at 10:47
efficiency and voltage mainey!
.
Time is an illusion produced by the passage of history
.

Lifetime Member
My Profile  My Blog  My Position  Send Message
Moderator

0
FollowupID: 612871

Follow Up By: Maîneÿ (wa) - Sunday, Jan 18, 2009 at 10:52

Sunday, Jan 18, 2009 at 10:52
"efficiency and voltage mainey!"

Bonz,
Now what do I make of that ?
you don't use a capital "M" in my nik, but the other words are spelt correctly ??
so yes I'm confused

Mainey . . .
0
FollowupID: 612873

Follow Up By: Bonz (Vic) - Respectfully- Sunday, Jan 18, 2009 at 10:56

Sunday, Jan 18, 2009 at 10:56
Unintentionional omission Mainey, apologies...

I mean that you'll lose efficiency AND voltage across a pitted and perturbed solenoid.

Also I went and read Wayne reply, do the moving main contacts in such a solenoid move up or down in that style of unit? I would not think that corrugations would pull a solenoid out simply due to its hemispherical orientation.
.
Time is an illusion produced by the passage of history
.

Lifetime Member
My Profile  My Blog  My Position  Send Message
Moderator

0
FollowupID: 612875

Follow Up By: Maîneÿ (wa) - Sunday, Jan 18, 2009 at 11:25

Sunday, Jan 18, 2009 at 11:25
Bonz,
you just have to stop using those big words this early in the day ha ha ha

Yes, you'll lose efficiency AND voltage across a pitted and perturbed solenoid, particularly in the type he is using.

A Redarc mechanical solenoid would be a much better choice.

The weight of the solenoid internals forces them to move over corrugations etc, in his case, movement is 'sideways' not vertical, so it causes only one of the contacts to loose 'contact' at a time, this causes all sorts of electrical sparks to fly, which will cause heat too !!

His Winch solenoid is sitting on a tray sideways too Image Could Not Be Foundthe manufacturers specify they must be vertical !!
The wear an tear is on internals where it does bash them against the housing, because the spring is not capable of holding it in it's recommended 'vertical downward' force due to inertia.

Maybe I'm being a bit pedantic, but if it's worth doing at all, it's worth doing well :-)

Mainey . . .
0
FollowupID: 612880

Follow Up By: Willem - Sunday, Jan 18, 2009 at 13:30

Sunday, Jan 18, 2009 at 13:30
Sigh..................

Been running the battery solenoid for 4 years like that over some of the worst roads you can imagine like the Talawana Track and the AB to no real ill effect. Same for the winch solenoids but they have been at that angle for 7 years on two vehicles.

I think one can be over protective of things i.e. pedantic...lol
0
FollowupID: 612890

Follow Up By: Bonz (Vic) - Respectfully- Sunday, Jan 18, 2009 at 13:33

Sunday, Jan 18, 2009 at 13:33
yer Willem I reckon you are a proof in point that unless the solenoid is malfunctioning it should hold in in all sorts of situations.

Pedantic has its place
.
Time is an illusion produced by the passage of history
.

Lifetime Member
My Profile  My Blog  My Position  Send Message
Moderator

0
FollowupID: 612892

Follow Up By: Willem - Tuesday, Jan 20, 2009 at 08:14

Tuesday, Jan 20, 2009 at 08:14
Mainey..............and Bonz.............

One last gasp.......................lol

I have made up a HD Positive Cable with an in line HD On/Off Switch. At testing the Main Battery was charging at 13.89 volts at idle and 13.87 volts at the Positive Terminal on the Auxilliary Battery.

So for the time being I will keep the Solenoid until it karks it and then replace the system with the made up cable so that the batteries can run in parallel without the use of a solenoid.

All batteries are properly earthed just in case you were wondering :-)

Cheers
0
FollowupID: 613154

Reply By: autosparky - Saturday, Jan 17, 2009 at 12:38

Saturday, Jan 17, 2009 at 12:38
hi all reading some return answers not all facts were covered(may have been too much liquid intake after all it was warm here yesterday. its my excuse an im sticking to it!) most of the heat is generated in the solenoid windings(the electromanet that pulls the contacts and plunger together)and some one else picked this up, my apologies
AnswerID: 344762

Follow Up By: Bonz (Vic) - Respectfully- Saturday, Jan 17, 2009 at 21:45

Saturday, Jan 17, 2009 at 21:45
heheheh I thunk that too autosparky and seems I were correct
.
Time is an illusion produced by the passage of history
.

Lifetime Member
My Profile  My Blog  My Position  Send Message
Moderator

0
FollowupID: 612804

Reply By: Wayne (NSW) - Sunday, Jan 18, 2009 at 09:41

Sunday, Jan 18, 2009 at 09:41
Willem,

I had a look at your previous post on how the electric wiring was cleaned up in the engine bay, good job.

One thing that I did notice is the position of the solenoid. High on the wire wall and has plenty of ventilation. The only thing that I would change is the orientation of the solenoid. Turn it 90* so that the solenoid is horizontal.

This will stop the contacts from bouncing up and down causing "arking" and heat build up on corrugated roads.

Wayne
AnswerID: 344886

Follow Up By: Bonz (Vic) - Respectfully- Sunday, Jan 18, 2009 at 10:49

Sunday, Jan 18, 2009 at 10:49
does that really happen? Corrugations set up resonant vibrations in a non-concentric manner which would surely shake the contacts apart (if the springs were stuffed) regardless of the orientation of the solenoid.
.
Time is an illusion produced by the passage of history
.

Lifetime Member
My Profile  My Blog  My Position  Send Message
Moderator

0
FollowupID: 612872

Follow Up By: Willem - Sunday, Jan 18, 2009 at 13:33

Sunday, Jan 18, 2009 at 13:33
Thanks Wayne

Have decided to run the batteries in parallel with a manual cut out switch for when parked.


Cheers
0
FollowupID: 612891

Follow Up By: Maîneÿ (wa) - Sunday, Jan 18, 2009 at 16:21

Sunday, Jan 18, 2009 at 16:21
Willem posted: " Have decided to run the batteries in parallel with a manual cut out switch for when parked "

Willem, do I understand your going to replace the solenoid with a manual switch ?

Mainey . . .
0
FollowupID: 612926

Follow Up By: Wayne (NSW) - Sunday, Jan 18, 2009 at 16:29

Sunday, Jan 18, 2009 at 16:29
Willem,

Just to clear up things.

A solenoid that I prepared earlier.

Image Could Not Be Found

An old solenoid


Image Could Not Be Found

Cut away to show what is happening when it is turned on. The copper disc is pulled down to the contacts by a coil at the base.
A spring is at the bottom of the copper disc that is trying to push the disc up. Another spring is at the top of the disc trying to push the disc down.


Image Could Not Be Found

When the solenoid is turned off the coil is releases the copper disc and the spring allows the copper disc to clear the contacts.

I thought that the copper disc and springs were bigger (heavier) and would have been subject to vibration.

I have always placed the solenoid in a horizontal position and like you have had very little trouble.

Myth busted, It does not matter which way the solenoid is place.


Wayne

0
FollowupID: 612927

Follow Up By: Willem - Sunday, Jan 18, 2009 at 19:16

Sunday, Jan 18, 2009 at 19:16
Thanks Wayne


Mainy...Yes. All the solenoid does is to provide a control mechanism for the power to the auxilliary battery be switched on or off from inside the cab. Chuck the solenoid out and fit a manual HD switch. So will have to pop the bonnet of I want to disconnect the two batteries.


Cheers
0
FollowupID: 612952

Follow Up By: Bonz (Vic) - Respectfully- Sunday, Jan 18, 2009 at 22:45

Sunday, Jan 18, 2009 at 22:45
Spot on Wayne, I have a brand new one in the shed and contemplated cutting it up to look inside lucky I didnt, So i dont see any reason not to mount it as Willem has it mounted.

Mainey what Willem means is that he has a switch in the solenoid operation circuit INSIDE the cabin so he can switch off the solenoid when he is parked if he wants to. You don't need a voltage sensing solenoid like a Redarc then..... sometimes I think you are TRYING to misunderstand ??
.
Time is an illusion produced by the passage of history
.

Lifetime Member
My Profile  My Blog  My Position  Send Message
Moderator

0
FollowupID: 612986

Follow Up By: Maîneÿ (wa) - Monday, Jan 19, 2009 at 00:22

Monday, Jan 19, 2009 at 00:22
Bonz,
I respectfully asked Willem,
"Willem, do I understand your going to replace the solenoid with a manual switch?"

Willem replied:
"Mainey... Yes.
All the solenoid does is to provide a control mechanism for the power to the auxilliary battery be switched on or off from inside the cab.
CHUCK the SOLENOID OUT and fit a manual HD switch.
So will have to pop the bonnet of I want to disconnect the two batteries."


Bonz,
I do understand Willem's post
Yes, he may have the set-up you describe now - but in Willem's reply to my question for clarification, Willem clearly states the solenoid is being *chucked out* and will be replaced with a "manual HD switch" which will be placed UNDER the bonnet, because as William clearly states he "will have to pop the bonnet of I want to disconnect the two batteries"

Well that is what it says on my screen anyway :-)

Mainey . . .
0
FollowupID: 612992

Follow Up By: Willem - Monday, Jan 19, 2009 at 07:39

Monday, Jan 19, 2009 at 07:39
You just cannot get my name around your head, can you Mainy......LOL

William is a popular given name of old Germanic origin.[1] It became very popular in the English language after the Norman Conquest of 1066, and remained so throughout the Middle Ages and into the modern era. The modern German equivalent is "Wilhelm." It is sometimes abbreviated "Wm." The name's shortened familiar version in English is Bill, Billy, "Will" or "Willie".
Willem is the original derivative from the name Wilhelm which came into being around the start of the first millenium. William is from the Norman language (although Norman French was Latin-based and the proper name is Germanic) and is a cognate from the German Wilhelm, and of Germanic origin: wil = "will or desire"; helm;"helmet, protection";[1] thus the Old German name Wilhelm and the Old Norse name Vilhjálmr have the same roots. The Belgian name "Guildhelm" means "harnessed with a gilded helmet".
William is the English translation of the name Willem.The English "William" is taken from the Anglo-Norman language and was transmitted to England after the Norman Conquest in the 11th century, and soon became the most popular name in England


Alternate forms include:

Wilhelm (German, Polish)
Willem, Wim, Jelle (Frisian, Afrikaans, Dutch, Low German)
Wiremu (Maori)
Wei Lián (Chinese)
Wil li am (Korean)
Wiriamu (Japanese)
Willelm (Old English)
Wellëm (Luxembourgish)
Gulielmus (Latin)
Guglielmo (Italian)
Guillaume (French)
Guildhelm (Old Dutch)
Guilhem (Occitan)
Guillem (Catalan)
Guillén (Aragonese)
Guillermo (Spanish)
Guilherme (Portuguese)
Guillerme (Galician)
Gwilym (Welsh)
Gwilherm (Breton)
Gugghiermu (Sicilian)
Gllâome (Norman)
Illiam (Manx Gaelic)
Melhem - ???? (Arabic)
Uilleam (Scots Gaelic)
Uilliam (Irish Gaelic)
?????? - Uiliam (Bulgarian)
???????? - Velvel (Yiddish)
Villem, Villu (Estonian)
????????? - Vil'gel'm (Russian)
????????? - Vil'gel'm (Ukrainian)
Vilhelm (Danish, Norwegian, Romanian, Swedish)
Vilhelmo (Esperanto)
Viliam (Slovak)
Viljem (Slovene)
?????? - Vylyam (Hebrew)
????? - Vilim (Serbian)
Vilém (Czech)
Vilmos (Hungarian)
Viljams (Latvian)
Vilius, Viliumas (Lithuanian)
Viljami, Ville (Finnish)
Vilhjálmur (Icelandic)
Vilhjálmr (Old Norse)
Veljams (Samogitian)
G??????µ?? - Gouliélmos (Greek)

((Ref: Wikipedia)

So there you have it.


How to extend a thread without even trying.....LOL

Cheers

0
FollowupID: 613007

Follow Up By: Maîneÿ (wa) - Monday, Jan 19, 2009 at 09:20

Monday, Jan 19, 2009 at 09:20
Willem posted:
"You just cannot get my name around your head, can you Mainy......LOL"

Willem,
just as you continue to post my name as Mainy ..... L0L

and not as it actually is with an " e "
It's heritage is Welsh, my only comment is we had a (West Coast) football player here with the same name :-)

Mainey . . .
( with an 'e' )
0
FollowupID: 613025

Follow Up By: Willem - Monday, Jan 19, 2009 at 12:15

Monday, Jan 19, 2009 at 12:15
Yerrrr.....yer right...Mainey...apologies....now we both know....hahahahaha



Cheers
0
FollowupID: 613045

Follow Up By: Bonz (Vic) - Respectfully- Monday, Jan 19, 2009 at 17:27

Monday, Jan 19, 2009 at 17:27
Stop it you pair of rabbits!

Oryctalagas Cunniculus to be EXACT
.
Time is an illusion produced by the passage of history
.

Lifetime Member
My Profile  My Blog  My Position  Send Message
Moderator

0
FollowupID: 613079

Reply By: Member - Mike DID - Monday, Jan 19, 2009 at 17:21

Monday, Jan 19, 2009 at 17:21
"I have a normal solenoid worth about $40."

There are two totally different types of solenoids.

STARTING
- switches hundreds of amps for a few seconds

CONTINUOUS
- switches tens of amps for hours on end.

If you just go in and ask for a solenoid you will get a starting solenoid - if you leave it switched continuously, the coil will get very hot.
AnswerID: 345091

Follow Up By: Willem - Monday, Jan 19, 2009 at 19:54

Monday, Jan 19, 2009 at 19:54
Thanks for that, Mike

The best answer by far :-)


Cheers
0
FollowupID: 613111

Follow Up By: Maîneÿ (wa) - Monday, Jan 19, 2009 at 20:24

Monday, Jan 19, 2009 at 20:24
Willem,
were you using a "starting" 0R "continuous" solenoid ?

Mainey . . .
0
FollowupID: 613113

Follow Up By: Willem - Monday, Jan 19, 2009 at 21:39

Monday, Jan 19, 2009 at 21:39
Dunno Mainey....was using one that gets hot!


Cheers
0
FollowupID: 613121

Follow Up By: Bonz (Vic) - Respectfully- Monday, Jan 19, 2009 at 22:33

Monday, Jan 19, 2009 at 22:33
Mike thats what I asked for and thats what I got, the box says starter solenoid, its the same as the one in Willems vehicle.

I opted for a Redarc due to the voltage sensing capabilities and the spike reduction characteristics
.
Time is an illusion produced by the passage of history
.

Lifetime Member
My Profile  My Blog  My Position  Send Message
Moderator

0
FollowupID: 613128

Sponsored Links

Popular Products (14)