Batter Isolator Solenoid heat

Hi Willem
I should add that the amount of heat it can tolerate depends on the type of winding insulation used. high quality insulation can tolerate heat up to 70deg c.
Cheaper low quality insulation will not have a long life @ that temp.
Again you need to know if it is suitable for continious duty.

G'day autosparky

Thanks

See my reply to Derek below.



Cheers

Hi
Auto sparky said
"sometimes the contacts in the solenoid will wear and not seat properly(through continuous use)and the current flowing thru the contacts will generate some heat"
I would suggest that if it is generating too hot to touch heat as differant to warm. due to contact resistance then you will be loosing a lot of voltage to your aux battery & it will not charge to a very high level

>I would suggest that if it is generating too hot to touch heat as differant to warm. due to contact resistance then you will be loosing a lot of voltage to your aux battery & it will not charge to a very high level<

Oldtrrack

But it is not losing a lot of voltage. As per usual at idle the main battery could be charging at 13.69 volts while the auxiliary batter charges at 13.67 volts or thereabouts


Cheers

Hi Wilem
OK that indicates it is not contact resistance[ dirty /burnt ], BUT coil heat which is what I was realy refering to regarding being suItable for continious duty.

Thanks for your contribution, Derek

Yes, there is just a slight drop in voltage. Solenoid working fine. It is only a basic model and I expect about 2 to 3 years life from it. Never had cause to touch it after charging the auxilliary battery before hence the question.


Cheers

Huh?

Willem,
You post: "Huh?"

is it because you don't understand the question ?

Mainey . . .

Mainy

Yes.... What you wrote.

>Umm, it is said HEAT is relevant to some voltage loss ?Electronic isolators don't cause overheating<

Now what has Overheating got to do with anything? Did you mean exceptional heat or did you mean overheating elsewhere in the circuit?

Hence the Huh?

Sometimes we mean well in what we say, but it may not make sense...LOL

Derek above, summed it up.


Cheers

Maîneÿ (wa) replied:
" Umm, it is said HEAT is relevant to some voltage loss ? "

Willem, I've simply asked a question
this is very evident by the question mark :-> " ? " <-:
placed at the end of the sentence, I was seeking an answer

It's simply asking, ' is heat relevant to some Voltage loss ? '


Maybe I should have asked a long winded question like:
Is it actually true that any HEAT that is generated with-in a 12v electrical circuit, by the consumption of electrical current to operate a device, is shown as a Voltage loss on the relevant 12v meter, with-in that same circuit ??

Mainey . . .

There ya go, Mainy

You are getting the hang of it.....hahahahahahaha

Mainey isnt the heat associated with the solenoid circuit and not the thru circuit?

Willem posted:
" Yesterday when I was working on the wiring and after going into the village for a drive, I noticed that the *solenoid* was quite hot. "
So in Williams case the mechanical 'solenoid' is hot, he has not commented on the cables or fittings.

Mainey . . .

Mainy

If you need to discuss this further we can do it off forum. You may contact me willem@kempen.id.au.

Who is Williams?

Thats correct Mainey. The solenoid has the main contacts and it has a coil arrangement that has moving gizmo's and stuff that holds the main contacts closed when activated. Its the coils etc that emit the heat. The main contacts shouldnt emit any heat at all neither should they have any voltage drop across them...

You know that Mainey, you're just pulling my leg aren't you?

Willem,
Woops, sorry yes I’ve misspelt 'your name', purely by accident so please accept my sincere apologies, as I assure you there was no malice intended.

As Wayne has stated below, your solenoid does appear to be incorrectly installed. Image Could Not Be FoundWhen this is corrected I'm sure some of your problems will be remedied.

Bonz,
You post: " The main contacts shouldnt emit any heat at all neither should they have any voltage drop across them... "

Yes, the *main contacts* are situated inside the metal solenoid case, as you say the majority of heat is produced from the coil windings, the *main contacts* only give problems when they get pitted, similar to the 'points' in an old EH (Holden) which had to be 'serviced' regularly, but in a solenoid they can't be because the solenoid is sealed, so it simply looses efficiency.
As to your leg, Umm only you know the answer to that :-)

Mainey . . .

efficiency and voltage mainey!

"efficiency and voltage mainey!"

Bonz,
Now what do I make of that ?
you don't use a capital "M" in my nik, but the other words are spelt correctly ??
so yes I'm confused

Mainey . . .

Unintentionional omission Mainey, apologies...

I mean that you'll lose efficiency AND voltage across a pitted and perturbed solenoid.

Also I went and read Wayne reply, do the moving main contacts in such a solenoid move up or down in that style of unit? I would not think that corrugations would pull a solenoid out simply due to its hemispherical orientation.

Bonz,
you just have to stop using those big words this early in the day ha ha ha

Yes, you'll lose efficiency AND voltage across a pitted and perturbed solenoid, particularly in the type he is using.

A Redarc mechanical solenoid would be a much better choice.

The weight of the solenoid internals forces them to move over corrugations etc, in his case, movement is 'sideways' not vertical, so it causes only one of the contacts to loose 'contact' at a time, this causes all sorts of electrical sparks to fly, which will cause heat too !!

His Winch solenoid is sitting on a tray sideways too Image Could Not Be Foundthe manufacturers specify they must be vertical !!
The wear an tear is on internals where it does bash them against the housing, because the spring is not capable of holding it in it's recommended 'vertical downward' force due to inertia.

Maybe I'm being a bit pedantic, but if it's worth doing at all, it's worth doing well :-)

Mainey . . .

Sigh..................

Been running the battery solenoid for 4 years like that over some of the worst roads you can imagine like the Talawana Track and the AB to no real ill effect. Same for the winch solenoids but they have been at that angle for 7 years on two vehicles.

I think one can be over protective of things i.e. pedantic...lol

yer Willem I reckon you are a proof in point that unless the solenoid is malfunctioning it should hold in in all sorts of situations.

Pedantic has its place

Mainey..............and Bonz.............

One last gasp.......................lol

I have made up a HD Positive Cable with an in line HD On/Off Switch. At testing the Main Battery was charging at 13.89 volts at idle and 13.87 volts at the Positive Terminal on the Auxilliary Battery.

So for the time being I will keep the Solenoid until it karks it and then replace the system with the made up cable so that the batteries can run in parallel without the use of a solenoid.

All batteries are properly earthed just in case you were wondering :-)

Cheers

heheheh I thunk that too autosparky and seems I were correct

does that really happen? Corrugations set up resonant vibrations in a non-concentric manner which would surely shake the contacts apart (if the springs were stuffed) regardless of the orientation of the solenoid.

Thanks Wayne

Have decided to run the batteries in parallel with a manual cut out switch for when parked.


Cheers

Willem posted: " Have decided to run the batteries in parallel with a manual cut out switch for when parked "

Willem, do I understand your going to replace the solenoid with a manual switch ?

Mainey . . .

Willem,

Just to clear up things.

A solenoid that I prepared earlier.

Image Could Not Be Found

An old solenoid


Image Could Not Be Found

Cut away to show what is happening when it is turned on. The copper disc is pulled down to the contacts by a coil at the base.
A spring is at the bottom of the copper disc that is trying to push the disc up. Another spring is at the top of the disc trying to push the disc down.


Image Could Not Be Found

When the solenoid is turned off the coil is releases the copper disc and the spring allows the copper disc to clear the contacts.

I thought that the copper disc and springs were bigger (heavier) and would have been subject to vibration.

I have always placed the solenoid in a horizontal position and like you have had very little trouble.

Myth busted, It does not matter which way the solenoid is place.


Wayne

Thanks Wayne


Mainy...Yes. All the solenoid does is to provide a control mechanism for the power to the auxilliary battery be switched on or off from inside the cab. Chuck the solenoid out and fit a manual HD switch. So will have to pop the bonnet of I want to disconnect the two batteries.


Cheers

Spot on Wayne, I have a brand new one in the shed and contemplated cutting it up to look inside lucky I didnt, So i dont see any reason not to mount it as Willem has it mounted.

Mainey what Willem means is that he has a switch in the solenoid operation circuit INSIDE the cabin so he can switch off the solenoid when he is parked if he wants to. You don't need a voltage sensing solenoid like a Redarc then..... sometimes I think you are TRYING to misunderstand ??

Bonz,
I respectfully asked Willem,
"Willem, do I understand your going to replace the solenoid with a manual switch?"

Willem replied:
"Mainey... Yes.
All the solenoid does is to provide a control mechanism for the power to the auxilliary battery be switched on or off from inside the cab.
CHUCK the SOLENOID OUT and fit a manual HD switch.
So will have to pop the bonnet of I want to disconnect the two batteries."


Bonz,
I do understand Willem's post
Yes, he may have the set-up you describe now - but in Willem's reply to my question for clarification, Willem clearly states the solenoid is being *chucked out* and will be replaced with a "manual HD switch" which will be placed UNDER the bonnet, because as William clearly states he "will have to pop the bonnet of I want to disconnect the two batteries"

Well that is what it says on my screen anyway :-)

Mainey . . .

You just cannot get my name around your head, can you Mainy......LOL

William is a popular given name of old Germanic origin.[1] It became very popular in the English language after the Norman Conquest of 1066, and remained so throughout the Middle Ages and into the modern era. The modern German equivalent is "Wilhelm." It is sometimes abbreviated "Wm." The name's shortened familiar version in English is Bill, Billy, "Will" or "Willie".
Willem is the original derivative from the name Wilhelm which came into being around the start of the first millenium. William is from the Norman language (although Norman French was Latin-based and the proper name is Germanic) and is a cognate from the German Wilhelm, and of Germanic origin: wil = "will or desire"; helm;"helmet, protection";[1] thus the Old German name Wilhelm and the Old Norse name Vilhjálmr have the same roots. The Belgian name "Guildhelm" means "harnessed with a gilded helmet".
William is the English translation of the name Willem.The English "William" is taken from the Anglo-Norman language and was transmitted to England after the Norman Conquest in the 11th century, and soon became the most popular name in England


Alternate forms include:

Wilhelm (German, Polish)
Willem, Wim, Jelle (Frisian, Afrikaans, Dutch, Low German)
Wiremu (Maori)
Wei Lián (Chinese)
Wil li am (Korean)
Wiriamu (Japanese)
Willelm (Old English)
Wellëm (Luxembourgish)
Gulielmus (Latin)
Guglielmo (Italian)
Guillaume (French)
Guildhelm (Old Dutch)
Guilhem (Occitan)
Guillem (Catalan)
Guillén (Aragonese)
Guillermo (Spanish)
Guilherme (Portuguese)
Guillerme (Galician)
Gwilym (Welsh)
Gwilherm (Breton)
Gugghiermu (Sicilian)
Gllâome (Norman)
Illiam (Manx Gaelic)
Melhem - ???? (Arabic)
Uilleam (Scots Gaelic)
Uilliam (Irish Gaelic)
?????? - Uiliam (Bulgarian)
???????? - Velvel (Yiddish)
Villem, Villu (Estonian)
????????? - Vil'gel'm (Russian)
????????? - Vil'gel'm (Ukrainian)
Vilhelm (Danish, Norwegian, Romanian, Swedish)
Vilhelmo (Esperanto)
Viliam (Slovak)
Viljem (Slovene)
?????? - Vylyam (Hebrew)
????? - Vilim (Serbian)
Vilém (Czech)
Vilmos (Hungarian)
Viljams (Latvian)
Vilius, Viliumas (Lithuanian)
Viljami, Ville (Finnish)
Vilhjálmur (Icelandic)
Vilhjálmr (Old Norse)
Veljams (Samogitian)
G??????µ?? - Gouliélmos (Greek)

((Ref: Wikipedia)

So there you have it.


How to extend a thread without even trying.....LOL

Cheers

Willem posted:
"You just cannot get my name around your head, can you Mainy......LOL"

Willem,
just as you continue to post my name as Mainy ..... L0L

and not as it actually is with an " e "
It's heritage is Welsh, my only comment is we had a (West Coast) football player here with the same name :-)

Mainey . . .
( with an 'e' )

Yerrrr.....yer right...Mainey...apologies....now we both know....hahahahaha



Cheers

Stop it you pair of rabbits!

Oryctalagas Cunniculus to be EXACT

Thanks for that, Mike

The best answer by far :-)


Cheers

Willem,
were you using a "starting" 0R "continuous" solenoid ?

Mainey . . .

Dunno Mainey....was using one that gets hot!


Cheers

Mike thats what I asked for and thats what I got, the box says starter solenoid, its the same as the one in Willems vehicle.

I opted for a Redarc due to the voltage sensing capabilities and the spike reduction characteristics