Weights ?

Submitted: Saturday, Apr 18, 2009 at 16:29
ThreadID: 67975 Views:3424 Replies:7 FollowUps:15
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Hi all ,

I was chatting to a mate today about weights ,my 98 T/D L/C

Tare weight is 2290
GVM (grose vehicle weight) is 3198

I have a BB, Rear bar, draws ,racks ,extra batt and other stuff so how does this effect me on my own or when I'm towing as my van says
Tare mass 1367
ATM - 1663
GTM - 1541
Axle Grose load cap - 1600
I took the van over a weigh bridge and it weighs 1980 KG
does this sound ok to all you guys ?

Regards John.
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Reply By: Johnny boy - Saturday, Apr 18, 2009 at 18:29

Saturday, Apr 18, 2009 at 18:29
I think I should have mentioned that we were both confused with what .Tare mass
GVM
ATM
GTM
AXLE GROSE all means as we both really dont know ?
AnswerID: 360202

Follow Up By: Member - Shane D (QLD) - Saturday, Apr 18, 2009 at 18:51

Saturday, Apr 18, 2009 at 18:51
TARE = what it weighs empty
GVM = gross vehicle mass; maximum the vehicle can weigh, people, fuel, luggage, EVERTHING on the vehicle, including towball weight
ATM = aggerate trailer mass?
GTM = gross trailer mass; maximum the trailer can weigh, again that includes EVERTHING
Axle gross = maximum the weight the axle is designed to carry,
just say your van weight is 1800kg and you have 200 kg on the towball, that leaves 1600kg on the axle.
GCM = gross combination mass; What a vehicle (and whatever you're towing) can legally weigh WHILST towing.
Shane
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FollowupID: 628053

Follow Up By: Member - Shane D (QLD) - Saturday, Apr 18, 2009 at 18:56

Saturday, Apr 18, 2009 at 18:56
ATM and GTM are the same thing, maximim weight of the van AND everthing in it.
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FollowupID: 628054

Follow Up By: Member - Graham H (QLD) - Saturday, Apr 18, 2009 at 21:14

Saturday, Apr 18, 2009 at 21:14
ATM and GTM are definitely NOT the same

ATM Aggregate Trailer Mass is the all up weight of the trailer fully loaded sitting on a weigh bridge on its own with all wheels and Jockey wheel ALL on the bridge

GTM is the weight on the AXLES but not the jockey wheel
To get the ball weight you normally deduct the GTM from the ATM

EG My van
ATM 2800
GTM 2490
Ball 295kg

You may not leagally tow a trailer which has a higher ATM than your car or towbar is legally rated at Whether it is full or not.

EG if your car is rated at 2500kg and your vans ATM is 2564 you may not tow it even if you leave the water tanks empty.

I had this problem and had to buy a Croozer to be legal.

Have a look back thru the posts headed about Cruisers.
I posted the legal weights for 100 series on one of them.



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FollowupID: 628080

Follow Up By: Member - Graham H (QLD) - Saturday, Apr 18, 2009 at 22:29

Saturday, Apr 18, 2009 at 22:29
Made a mistake above Ball weight of course is 305 kg


Your van is horribly overweight to the point of being dangerous.
The single most cause of suspension and tyre failure is overloading.

You can get the van uprated but the following gets taken into account.
Cahssis, springs,brakes, tyres axles,bearing and stub axles all have to be rated also tow hitch. Whichever is the lightest limits your ATM.
I had mine uprated from 2564 to 2800 and the 2500kg chassis limited me to that. To stay legal I have to have a ball weight of 305kg .

You should also take you car to a weighbridge and weigh it.
Fill the tanks and weigh it with all your gear and you in it as if you are going away. Find out that weight, add in your passengers weight and the ball weight and then decide what to leave behind

From Thread 67840 the weights for a TD Cruiser are Tare 2507 Payload 642 gross 3260 Presumably we are talking about a croozer are we.

Eg Tare 2290 ??????plus 140kg fuel, 80-100kg??you, drawers and contents at least 100kg Spare wheel carrier and wheel at least 80kg ( a wheel and tyre 41kg) Plus the towball weight of nearly 200 kg and you cant even put a cut lunch in the back or any wife or kids.



Its all fine if you dont prang it but then the insurance will look at it cart it and you off to a weighbridge put whoever was in it and weigh it all.

If its over its over Red rover UNLESS YOU CAN PROVE THE WEIGHT DIDNT CONTRIBUTE TO THE ACCIDENT.

Hard to do sometimes.

Have gone into all this very thoroughly and can assure you that as far as I know and the engineer I was consulting that its all pretty much correct, at least in Queensland where it was done.
Would need to be , cost me $23,000 plus to get legal again.

The guy said he gets at least 3 calls a week about caravan weights etc and says the companies are awake to overloading and now make a habit of using it to deny claims if at all possible.

In saying that I had a similar car parked beside me yesterday that had a tinny on top with gear under it a spare tyre AND an outboard on the back Full to the brim in the back, an illegal lift HID lights Good god I thought. He wasnt concerned.

Cant believe some people.

Cheers

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FollowupID: 628093

Follow Up By: Member - Shane D (QLD) - Saturday, Apr 18, 2009 at 23:29

Saturday, Apr 18, 2009 at 23:29
Hi Graham,
Clearly, you have done your homework, but the terminology that is used IS confusing.
The Maximum weight of a cruiser, as permitted by Toyota (using thread 67843) is 3260kg, this is stated as the vehicles gross vehicle mass (GVM), however if it where a trailer, this scenario is called ATM!?.
GTM is the weight on the axle, but not the weight on the drawbar, isn't that part of the trailer?(around 300kg), so therefore should it be included in the trailers mass!?

I have a '05 HZJ 105 cruiser with Elec winch, second battery, roofrack, bullbar, plus radios, fridge slide (no fridge in there) and found my cruiser weighed in at 2760 kg, GVM 3260kg, gives me 500kg for passengers, luggage, recovery gear, spares. . . . blah blah blah. . . not much allowance.
Shane
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FollowupID: 628099

Follow Up By: Member - Graham H (QLD) - Sunday, Apr 19, 2009 at 08:15

Sunday, Apr 19, 2009 at 08:15
Yes it is confusing but you will find that they are also the terms used in ADR rules so must be observed.
I dont know why they dont standardise them but remember that Toyota is an offshore company and probably use the terminology used in Japan or USA I dont know, but do know that it pays to stick to them.

It seems that Australians have an obsession with extra gear whether they need it or not. Overseas they dont as much.

It is possible to get the GVM of a croozer uprated at quite an expense if thats what you want and you will find out how to on LCOOL.
AS you say Ive done my homework and the guy I worked with does this stuff every day so can tell by looking at stuff exactly what it is etc.
If I was the poster on here I would be buying a larger tandem van and leaving a lot of stuff at home.
The reason being a tandem has a 400kg load rating or in some of road vans even more. All this however comes at a price usually north of $70-$100k.
Cheers
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FollowupID: 628113

Follow Up By: Member - Graham H (QLD) - Sunday, Apr 19, 2009 at 08:16

Sunday, Apr 19, 2009 at 08:16
Typo should read OFF ROAD vans


Toooooooo early in the morning


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FollowupID: 628114

Follow Up By: Member - Graham H (QLD) - Sunday, Apr 19, 2009 at 08:31

Sunday, Apr 19, 2009 at 08:31
Terminology

GVM is for a Car or Truck that is self propelled.

ATM is for a vehicle that is being towed and has no motor
ATM is all up weight as I said above.

GTM is the weight on THE AXLES ONLY.
When your van is hitched to the car and you weigh the van it weighs lighter by the amount of the ball weight
That is GTM.
The difference between the two is part of the cars weight and in your car if you hooked my van on the back you wouldnt have room for mum or lunch.

Does that explain it.

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FollowupID: 628115

Follow Up By: Member - Shane D (QLD) - Sunday, Apr 19, 2009 at 09:05

Sunday, Apr 19, 2009 at 09:05
Thanks Graham,
I'm NOT picking an argument with you or discrediting ANY of your information.
I was simply saying the terminology is confusing NOT the way you presented it, I UNDERSTAND

With my background in the transport industry, I'm WELL aware of weight distribution and the legality's involved, Trucks cannot move from Brisbane to Sydney or Sydney to Melbourne without being weighed, and on ALL interstate routes, they have random checks.
We USED to get 1 ton grace, that's around 2% of GCM of a single trailer semi.

I have no interest in increasing my GVM, I was highlighting the fact that I don't have a lot of bells and whistles on my cruiser and how quickly my payload gets swallowed up, even though my cruiser (which is poverty pack) has the best payload of the cruiser WAGON range.

Thanks for posting great in-depth info and I'm sure Jonnyboy will benefit greatly from it.
Shane
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FollowupID: 628117

Follow Up By: Member - Graham H (QLD) - Sunday, Apr 19, 2009 at 17:44

Sunday, Apr 19, 2009 at 17:44
No offence taken at all I guess its in the way you read it.

BUT you did make me wonder when you said that ATM and GTM are the same.

Yes the payload can swallow up quickly and so many dont know, dont care or just dont give a toss.

Load it up away we go wonder why the wheel bearings are hot.

Only 500 kg overweight.!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Me I prefer to stay legal and alive.

Cheers
Hope Johnboy makes enough at the races to buy something decent. ROFL
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FollowupID: 628173

Reply By: GerryP - Saturday, Apr 18, 2009 at 18:31

Saturday, Apr 18, 2009 at 18:31
Hi John,

This always confuses me, but as I understand it, the ATM is the maximum total weight of the van, disconnected from the car, including all your gear, full tanks etc.

The gross (maximum) load for the axle set is 1600 kg and this is understandably rated at more than your ATM of 1663 kg to provide some margin of safety.

You should have around 10% of the total weight on the ball (166 kg) when connected to the car, in which case the axles support around 1497 kg, which is also less than your GTM of 1541 kg.

So far so good...

You don't say whether you disconnected the van from the car or not when you weighed in at 1980 kg, but either way, your van is quite overloaded. Either 317 kg if you disconnected when weighing or 439 kg if it was still hooked on. You are also potentially overloading your axle group by 380 kg as well.

Some manufacturers cut things far too close in my opinion and don't leave much spare capacity for all the things you need to take. You may need to look very carefully at what you pack to try and get the weight down somewhat. It might cause problems with insurance and I have been told that in Queensland, they are pulling vans over at weighbridges.

Hope this helps John.

Cheers
Gerry
AnswerID: 360203

Follow Up By: Johnny boy - Saturday, Apr 18, 2009 at 18:42

Saturday, Apr 18, 2009 at 18:42
Hi Gerry,

That 1980 was off the car ...UM I'm starting to really stress out now?
I have not taken anything out of the ordinary food ,BBQ,Cloths,Food,Fishing gear and some poles? and my mods to the van was a rear bar to carry the 80kg boat trailer and a bracket on the front to carry the motor and fuel tank which was both not on at time of weigh in ,so I'm thinking are these guys being honest with there tags or am I being unreasonable?

Regards John.
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FollowupID: 628050

Reply By: Member - Shane D (QLD) - Saturday, Apr 18, 2009 at 18:36

Saturday, Apr 18, 2009 at 18:36
How did it get to 1980 kg if its tare is 1367?
If you have 380 kg on the tow ball (illegal) then the axle weight will be right on the van (but over on the tow ball)
380 kg on the cruiser adds to the tare thus deducting from how much you can put into the cruiser.
I think you have to reconsider what goes and what stays because what you have described indicates that your set-up is really pushing the boundary's of legal.
Shane
AnswerID: 360208

Reply By: Notso - Saturday, Apr 18, 2009 at 18:59

Saturday, Apr 18, 2009 at 18:59
The problem with a lot of van manufacturers is that they have an unrealistically low Tare Mass.

Some vans are up to 200 kilos heavier empty that the advertised Tare mass.

At 1980 you are way over the legal weight for your van.

The other thing is as said above that you are probably exceeding your Gross vehicle Mass on the cruiser as well.

Better remove the pet rock collection from the van I'd reckon.


AnswerID: 360212

Follow Up By: Rockape - Saturday, Apr 18, 2009 at 19:21

Saturday, Apr 18, 2009 at 19:21
Notso,
you are being very polite in saying "manufactures are unrealistic about their stated van tares"

They just plain lie

Have a good one
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FollowupID: 628057

Reply By: GerryP - Saturday, Apr 18, 2009 at 21:09

Saturday, Apr 18, 2009 at 21:09
Hi again John,

It might be an idea to take it to a caravan or trailer manufacturer and see if they would be prepared to either validate the tag or retag it to something a bit higher, providing it is safe to do so of course.

Mind you, they won't alter the maximum axle rating as that is standard for a single axle with (I think) Holden bearings. So at the very least, you will need to get the weight down to suit the axle.

Don't know what State you're in - if in Adelaide, I can recommend a couple of places you could ask.

Cheers
Gerry
AnswerID: 360236

Follow Up By: Member - Graham H (QLD) - Saturday, Apr 18, 2009 at 22:40

Saturday, Apr 18, 2009 at 22:40
The usual reason that tare weights are incorrect is that manufacturers make a model and weigh it and then apply that weight to all subsequent of that model.
Some people of course may specify batteries or solar or other things that add weight but the tare usually remains the same.

Anyone buying a NEW OR USED van should take it to a weighbridge and if it new and overweight take it back with the certified ticket and demand it be altered..
Mine was tared at 2164 but had 2 big batteries and 2 solar panels and an oversize aircon unit. Weighed out at 2300.
See what I mean.

Buyer beware its your money you could lose.

Happy travels.


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FollowupID: 628096

Reply By: Member - Graham H (QLD) - Saturday, Apr 18, 2009 at 22:33

Saturday, Apr 18, 2009 at 22:33
Read my follow up above i should really have posted it as a reply sorry.






AnswerID: 360245

Follow Up By: Johnny boy - Sunday, Apr 19, 2009 at 09:39

Sunday, Apr 19, 2009 at 09:39
Hi Everone,
Im going to the rosehill CCS today and will talk to the windsor people there and thanks for all your advice its all taken on board ,wish me luck!

Regards John.
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FollowupID: 628120

Reply By: Horacehighroller - Sunday, Apr 19, 2009 at 22:55

Sunday, Apr 19, 2009 at 22:55
Johnny Boy,
the simple (but not inexpensive) solution is to bolt an extra axle under the back of the van (compliance plate replaced with new one)and then load it carefully with some of the extra stuff that normally travels in the car.

That way the car is legal, the van is legal, and the whole combination is legal so long as you don't exceed the 6 tonne ?? GCM (new term - Gross carried mass = total of car and van) of the landcruiser.

Enjoy!

Peter
AnswerID: 360453

Follow Up By: Member - Graham H (QLD) - Wednesday, Apr 22, 2009 at 21:02

Wednesday, Apr 22, 2009 at 21:02
Not necessarily so as you are limited to the weight that the chassis can carry.
All you are doing is altering the axle rating which is usually Ok anyway.
If the GTM exceeds the Chassis Rating its illegal.
As in my case everything was rated to 3 tonne except the chassis which was 2.5 tonne so doesnt matter how many axles you stuff under it it wont be legal.

And the correct term is GCVM Gross Combined Vehicle Mass.

In his case he needs a larger van to carry the 300kg hes overloaded.



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FollowupID: 628708

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