To all the new boys and girls on this site

Kim,
I only read posts I believe may be of interest to me.

I would think that "relevant reports that give real value to the reader" must be up to date and reliable information, not information contained in the archives as it would probably be out of date, therefore questions should be asked so up to date information is obtained.

That's just my view on it :-)

Maîneÿ . . .

I think one of the problems is how quickly threads move on this forum and off the page. In most other forums I particpate a new reply bumps it to the top. The lack of this feature, and 'stickies' is probably adding to the repetition.

Yes we have a search feature, but not everyone uses it or understands it's intricacies.

Well I was about to pay a membership but am thinking that its probably not worth it if I am going to be clogging the site asking questions that have been asked before. I for one do try to search archives but find that it isnt always easy to find the answers. I also use google which these days comes up with heaps of ads.

I was hoping that people would be happy to share their experiences mainly in caravaning as I am always happy to share mine in the other forums I participate in even if I do find myself repeating things occasionally.

I guess I will have to go back to meeting people on the road that are happy to offer hints and tips.

Well thats my two bobs worth.

Goodnight all.

I can see the problem but I am more of the same mind as gh1967. I've signed up recently as a new member, having prev. been active as reg. visitor, and am still amazed at how this forum works. It's like no other F I've ever come across. I won't go into the past as again, it's been done to death via prev. threads, but this F is unique. Threads are just soooo temporary; no wonder Q's get re-visited as if the ghost of the original Q simply won't die.

Thread search is far far too clunky to be of much use except for the most basic searches. Anything layered is buried under clay.

That said, I reckon it's a great forum because, no matter how many members get p'off, there always seems to be sufficient to attend to even the most basic queries.

I use the F for a limited range of tech Q's as I'm still kitting out the vehicle. Mainly I am keen on the destination stuff and it's gold for this - see eg the post from 'getoutmore' this evening which I've followed up and will prob. 'do' in Oct this year. Also my Qs about my forthcoming Kimb/NT trip have led to significant route mods - thks to respondents.

So let's not get too precious about preferred styles - if one doesn't like the thread header, ignore the thread.

Really girls and boys, it's that simple.

Cheers.

Hi folks,

Here's my two bobs worth.

What may be boring or old hat to some isn't to others. Everyone has a point of view and understands things in a different way.

Lets encourage people with questions and seeking help. After all isn't his what a forum is all about?

cheers

phil

I'm encouraged that the same old 'new' questions get asked...it points towards more people getting into four-wheel driving, which can't be a bad thing, even better they visit here to get the answers.

The adage, no such thing as a silly question comes to mind.

So Kim's suggestion is to look everywhere else for your answers rather than here??

I'll repeat the sentiment of others, if the thread title holds no interest, then don't respond. It's not complicated and should cause you no offense.

To suggest that just because a question has been asked and answered before excludes it from the list of acceptable questions to be asked in the future, is just silly.

Newbies (and oldies), ask away. There are many here who will do their best to see that you get the widest and most current answers to you enquiries.

Dave's 2c

l every single topic has just about been covered , with exception of updated road conditions ...... so your suggesting that this forum should now be closed as you dont feel the need to offer live advice to people ?

as for clogging the system - isnt that something the owners of this forum should worry about and not you ?

Boc

Hi All

I can understand where Kim is comming from, re: Bush Humour and Entertaining Stories, some of the Questions are so Trite, it makes one wonder some times, I also agree that people can gain knowledge from this Forum so as mentioned before, just skip over the Trite Stuff.

In my opinion the main problem is the comments from people to "search the archives" or "do a google".

If the person requesting information was comfortable or knowledgeable to perform these functions, they would have already done so. They have come to THIS SITE, THIS FORUM, to obtain their information.

I don't give a continental how often the same question is asked. If an informative and complete range of responses are already in the archives and no new information can be added then that is the time to refer someone to the existing information, usually by providing a post reference, or a URL that someone can click on.
Many times however, new methods, new products and new experiences will determine a different response than what the same person may have given last time round, so any relevant information is good.

What we do want to avoid folks, is to scare a new visitor or member off by "abusing" them for not researching elsewhere, before asking the question on this forum.
That is the primary purpose of the forum on ExlorOz. To provide accurate and relevant information on all things to do will 4WD'ing, Camping and Caravaning.

Perhaps the one thing now missing, is the camaraderie and humour that used to exist but has now been largely moderated out to the extent that the Forum has lost a lot of it's unique character.

This hasn't caused me to "spit the dummy" (yet) but I do miss the banter among forumites on a whole range of incidental, sometimes irrelevant but amusing "happenings".


Bill.

If there were no repeat questions, this site would die.

As others have said, if you don't like the topic, don't open it. If you don't want to answer a repeat question, don't. Plenty of others are willing to answer repeat questions. It's not as if there is only one expert on any particular subject raised on this Forum.

Regards

Kim
Mate if that was the case then the Forum would die....literally,

.

There was a time when we ALL had to ask questions! So when someone comes to this forum for the first time and asks a question that to him/her is very important, but to most of the rest of us is mundane or "done-to-death".... is it that difficult to simply answer the question? Or ignore the thread..... it's up to you. Much better IMHO that people ask the questions and get some answers than not ask and be unprepared.

If you see a topic that has been covered before, then don't read it.


Cheers

Brian

Kim,
Everyone is entitled to an opinion but i probably would have kept that one to myself.

As someone who was a new member not all that long ago, let me offer my 2 cents worth. When I started using the site I didn't know what I didn't know, so using the search function was of no practical use. If you don't know what you don't know, how can you search for it?

The main value from this forum for newcomers in my humble opinion is that they can browse the threads and learn what they need to know from other's questions and the replies. I found it extremely valuable to do that, and learned a lot. I still am surprised from time to time by a question asked by someone.

Telling newcomers to do a search instead of asking questions is a sure way to kill off the site or turn it into just a social chat place.

Let's keep it useful and rewarding for newcomers as well as old hands.

In my opinion the only stupid question is the one you haven,t asked and just as you answer the same questions for your grandchildren as they each grow up so we longer term members - note not older - should be happy to be helping the newbies.

One of the problems I perceive is that we tend to think of the forum as "OURS" and resent new people coming into "OUR" forum. This is not unusual and many of you may have had similar experiences in clubs or groups where those who have been around for a while set up an 'ownership' barrier and it ends up with either the newcomers getting frustrated and leaving or they take the reins and the oldies leave because 'they' changed everything.

We humans are a strange bunch.

Read what interests you. Comment where you feel qualified and enjoy the fact that occasionally you learn something.

My grandchildren have all asked the same questions over the years and while my answers may have remained constant their reactions certainly have not.

Kevin J

Can I suggest that posters think about what they want to know a bit and put a decent message in the header.


EG Tyres

can mean anything

Whereas

What is an alternative tyre to my 275 x 70 x 8 on a Cruiser.

Tells the reader something.

A lot of posts dont provide enough information to give a reasonable answer.

If you ask the correct questions you stand a far better chance of getting the correct answers.

Just my thoughts on the subject

hi all

may the operators of this great site could alter the forum to be like the trader is split into sections

ie
general chat
power and solar
destinations
road info
tyres
fridges

then maybe easier read info on specific areas

just an idea---------- may be too hard???

mik

Hi Kim,
I'm going to answer the repeat question scenario from an entirely different perspective other than the narrow view of this forum.

In my day job I work in an obscure part of Electrical Engineering called Industrial Process Control.

I do sales, marketing, tech support, trouble shooting, engineering, programming, electrical design, electrical trouble shooting and general gophering on a range of programmable industrial controllers made by the company I work for.

Do you have any idea how many times per day I answer what on the surface appears to be the same question asked by different customers?

Everytime I'm asked a question I notice there is a subtle slant to suit the end users situation, just as every question asked on this forum has a subtle slant to suit the end users situation.

These situations could be the way the equipment is applied, the owners budget or small environmental differences.

If one approaches repeat questions with the right mind set and looks for the subtle variations in each one it actually enhances the answerers knowledge of the situation too.

All the above really states is the only stupid question is one that is never asked.

So folks ask away, if I don't have the answer for the poster or it's outside my knowledge i just move on.

Geoff

Let's forget the repeat questions.....

I want to complain about the:

POOR SPELLING

BAD GRAMMAR

NO PUNCTUATION....

especially the INAPPROPRIATE USE OF THE APOSTROPHE....

Its driving me nut's.

This post has been read by the moderation team and has been moderated due to a breach of The Moderation Complaints Rule .

Forum Moderation Team

Thanks Kim, I was wondering why Mr Top End Traveller was leaving. I think there's quite a lot of merit in almost all the comments above about re-asking old questions to get up to date info, and to get info that is more specific to our personal requirements.

Personally, I find the thread search turns up a lot of irrelevent posts (many of which are also interesting, adding to the time to actually find what I'm looking for!) but perhaps I'm missing something by not knowing how to use the search to its potential? Perhaps the search could be modified to just search thread titles, or in the longer term, tags added so you can restrict the search for threads about particular topics: eg. fridges, or GPS, etc. rather than finding every thread where someone happens to mention that they 'had a beer from the "fridge"'

Most of the "articles" I've looked at are so basic they don't tell me anything I didn't already know, but maybe for some they are a great starting point for info. The site also contains information on road conditions but is generally limited to "closed" or "open" unless some nice member has been thoughtful enough to add comments after travelling the road. On the forum you will prompt people to give very up-to-date and first-hand information that the road conditions section simply could not provide (unless everyone always remembered to post comments on all roads they have recently travelled).

I've seen this site a number of times over the past 4-5 years (was recommended for fuel consumption figures for trips, and also turns up in a number of google searches) but I've only been seriously hanging around I for a couple of months and I think I can also understand where Kim is coming from... sometimes it seems a question appears that was asked just a week ago, or sometimes there seem to be questions that look like someone is too lazy to work out an answer for themselves (eg. which way is longer from Three Ways to Canberra^? - this could be answered fairly quickly by adding up the numbers on the map or checking the routes on Google Maps/Travelmate/GPS - and probably what anyone would have to do to answer the question for your anyway. If the question was "which way is more interesting/scenic etc.?" it would make more sense where first-hand comments are sought)

Kim's list of other sources and my responses are as follows:
1. Using the wealth of information this site provides including the archives (as distinct from the forum) - True, there are many other good parts of this site (I recently discovered the wealth of info in the Treks and the Places that are also listed near the bottom of each Trek page) but many times it's difficult and/or time consuming to actually track down the info you're looking for.
2. Google - Also true, but there is a lot of unreliable info out there. The fact that people turn to the forum shows that the collective opinion of the forum is valued/appreciated/useful.
3. Telephone book - Partly true, it lists suppliers/installers/repairers/etc. but there are some dodgy operators out there and the 'phone book can't give first-hand advice or recommendations that people on the forum will - most business owners will tell you that word of mouth is one of their best (if not THE best) form of advertising, where better to get it than on a forum?
4. Web research - Same as Google but also, a lot of web research will also lead you directly to suppliers/sellers who cannot tell you which is the best doohickey for your specific needs because they have a vested interest to sell you the one they sell. People use the forum to get a whole set of real users' opinions, all in one place - that's what it's here for.
5. Key government information hot lines - some of these are no good if english is your first language! and often they are not really interested to help. Usually they can't see past their own branch of their department and often you'll get a far simpler answer if you can ask someone who's successfully navigated the bureaucracy themselves. Eg. questions appear about interstate rego transfers appear from time to time - why not just call the RTA? Well, you could call three different times and get three different answers, none of which seem particulary relevant. Too often the actual process is different from that described and having the correct documents the first time (instead of just those rattled off by disinterested RTA telephone staff) may save you taking half a day off work, queuing for a couple of hours only to be told that you also need ___ document.

If you want to hear my pet-forum-hate (didn't think so, but here it is anyway!), it's the threads where the title and first line (which appears in the index) have nothing to do with the question "Hey, guess what everyone!..." etc. and questions that are so vague such as "Anyone know a good _____ repairer/installer nearby?" without telling us where in Oz you are! Are you really prepared to drive across Oz for the firm that's recommended?

^ For those who are interested, there is only about 20km difference between travelling via Coober Pedy, Port Augusta, Hay, etc. compared to travelling via Longreach, Brisbane & Sydney.

This is an interesting thread and the responses by and large are not too surprising. Sure there are other ways of finding information, but often things change, and others might have a different perspective which may enrich previous responses to the same or similar questions.

But doesn’t it simply come down to the way we all interact?

I mean, how many of us in our travels have walked into that icon of the Australian Bush, the Pub, and asked a question of the locals that they’ve probably been asked a million times before, or maybe it could just be a yarn around the camp-fire, how many times have we heard the same question? I’m sure we’d all be taken back if told to go and ‘Google it’ before we ask next time, besides where would that lead us in terms of social interaction?

…so maybe the forum is just an extension of the Outback Pub..or camp-fire chat.

At times, before responding to a question some could do well to consider a quote from Plato (427BC -347BC)

“Wise men talk because they have something to say; fools, because they have to say something”.

Good luck out there…….

My father taught me to ask questions, no matter how ridiculous, stupid or trivial it may seem, If you don't ask you'll never know. Yes, do your research first to the best of your ability, if that fails you, then go ahead and ask.
I read most threads and posts, some are of interest and others aren't. It doesn't worry me if it contains chit chat or a little off topic, I just glance over them. I don't get annoyed by it, I just move along.
I don't know why some people get so hung up on the chit chat thing, it's just people being social, its in our nature to say G'day and ask how your going, or how the cook is and the billy lids or about your trip/planned trip is going.

I've learnt a lot from just watching threads and I believe the vast majority of people do to. And every now and then if I can help someone else, it means I give a little bit back to the site and it's users.

Gidday

First of all, my post was not meant to discourage questions nor give an opinion on the content of the site. Equally, it’s important to make new comers aware of the useful information already contained within the site, and I think that should be promoted. Particularly with new ideas, and input from viewers/members.

Traffic to the site is a commercial reality, and only a fool would argue otherwise. Having said that, quality and diversity is just as important. I base this premise on the simple fact that repetition, without colour generally has an effect on any web site in the long term.

In all fairness I’ve placed posts on here after doing a lot of research, and found the question answered within a couple of minutes. One in particular had me sitting back in the chair thinking ‘How did I miss that’.

My post probably wasn’t articulated very well, but I still stick to the key message:

1. Encourage colour and diversity.
2. Use the available resources first.

Most of you weren’t too happy with the post, but I’ve got to have my say.

Regards

Kim

Kim,
Been having trouble with my computor, all is right now after I hit it with a hammer.

Simple statement is!!!!!!
You were not put on this earth to live up to my expectations
and I was not put here to live up to yours.

If we have different points of view or if we agree it doesn't matter.

AT LEAST WE HAVE A POINT OF VIEW AND ARE NOT AFRAID TO STATE IT.

I disagree with you but that doesn't make me right, I just think along different lines.

This is what a forum is about, along as there is no abuse there should be no problem.

So to everyone harden up and get on with it

Have a good one

I find it "interesting" that there appears to be an expectation that a poster should "justify" his post to another who either has a different life experience or holds an alternate view.

This issue does BUG me, with forums threads, where IF a reader doesn't agree with a stated opinion, he or she feels the need to post their demand for "justification" because they don't agree and want everyone reading and posting, to agree wth THEIR particular point of view.

This is NOT the school yard - where there is ONLY one right question and it's the one the teacher says is right and we have to argue about it ad nauseum until we all agree 100% on everything!

That type of approach to forms threads is so immature.

Every Poster has their own opinion on a subject based on THEIR specific life experience.

To share that opinion willingly and then be "attacked for it" is NOT conducive to further involvement or expression of opinion.

We should as adults be able to agree to disagree about a subject and move on - there may well be other topics about which we do agree / share common beliefs etc.

Where every thread descends into needless attacks on one or more posters who hold different opinions - is so immature and helps drive people away.

Basically when someone asks / posts a question, you SHOULD be able to respond with your advice / opinion, or what your life experience has taught you and leave it at that!

Why should anyone have to "justfy" their opinion because someone else disagrees?

Surely the poster is allowed the freedom of choice to sift thru all the replies and select those peices of opinion, advice etc that THEY wish to extract from the thread and make whatever decision they choose to follow - without having to get all thread contributors general agreement with, his or her proposed course of action.

It GENERALLY appears that a LOT of the younger crowd these days, want fast food / instant reposne, type advice, in no more than 2 sentences of words no more than 4 letters and two syllables in length.

Hungry Jacks and their Mobile Phone text is the extent of their attention span and degree of interest.

An older person might have a lifetimes experience with the subject they asked about and be prepared to share all of that in a response.

The often quite rude younger set, will just post "TMI" (too much information) for their pea brain retention, comprehension, capability and skip the reply, not bothering to even say "Thanks" or read the detailed reply.

The younger set don't have the divine right to turn the internet and forums etc into their own form of instant response Mobile Phone text speak domain and run those with different methods of communicating off the forums with such "justification demand" type harrassement.

It shows a total lack of respect for age and experience.

Maybe theres a need for "separate" forums based on age or intellectualability & communications skills - where the kiddy texters can interact discussing the most important issue of the day (Pinks new fashion pants) and the rest of us interested in assiting others and learning about travel and 4wd in Australia can communicate in an intelligent fashion.

Surely those without the requisit skills to communicate effectively and politely -on these forums can get all the 4wd and outdoor advice they need on facebook and myspace, twitter etc?

Keeping the forums for those who wish to communicate in a grown up manner, agree to disagree, without getting into "forum rage" etc might be a really good start.

Add in the forum decifiency's in lack of emoticons to convey mood - is probably partly responsible for people not taking posts in the way the author intended.

This is the world wide web - you will get participants from all nations and walks of life and they all have to get on for it to work. Not everyone HAS to be an ocker and adhere to bogan or ocker standards to be able to post here.

Those from different age classes and cultural backgrounds, will probably not get along well - where our Ozzie language is not their native tongue and where we all have different expectations about what is and is NOT acceptable internet/forums ettiquette due to cultural or age divide.

Sometimes those demanding the loudest and most, often have little real knowledge of what the correct etiquette really is for communications in an international forum of the world wide web.

Thats why we have mods and admins etc - to sort out the mess!
Their job would be a lot easier, IF we ALL had the same expecations, as them.
Standby for the next issue of war n peace! ;o)

Cheers!

My spelling is by no means perfect but I have noticed the use or the word harassment in this post by people supposedly wanting better English better spelling and etc etc etc.

So to be so perfect should I spell it as harrassment.

Good on you Kim it worked you are a marketing communications participation genious .

Ian

Hi Kim

Whether people agree or disagree with your post I congratulate you on posting it because it certainly generated plenty of interest and debate and there is nothing wrong with that.

I indicated previously that I am a fan of people asking questions, regardless of how many times or variations of it are asked, if only because it might be enriched by a different perspective from a completely different person.

Some, at times, would do well to steer away from responding to the posts you describe unless they can contribute something to the question at hand, unfortunately all too often ‘newbies’ are put off by the ‘check the search engine’ type responses….but I digress.

The point I would like to make is that many who have information to contribute should do so by writing a blog on the topic and posting it in the blogs area. This site has members who have knowledge and experience that is as diverse and numerous as the membership base itself.

Why not write a blog covering topics of interest, commonly asked questions, remedies to problems etc, and post it to the appropriate section. This is one way members can contribute their experience in a meaningful way, without having to answer the same question all the time.

Personally, the blog section of this site is one of my favourites and I probably spend more time in there then anywhere else given the diversity of topics covered.

As a matter of interest there are 965 blog entries and a combined total viewing of just under 350,000, so many people do look at them.

All the best…..

I agree with Geoff about the subtle difference in each question. Also there is a lot of scope to vary the answer, to put a more complete or clearer answer than last time. In other words to take the opportunity to add to the forum, to add to the collective knowledge.

There are a lot more people who read the answers than the one person who asked the question so in answering a question or contributing we are writing to a vastly larger number of people than the one person who asked. Others in the future will read it from the archives long after we have lost interest or maybe even changed our views as a result of later experience.

There was an interesting thread on manual or auto transmissions recently where there was a mix of hard line views in favour of one or the other, technical views and some pragmatic ones. Combined those contributions covered the topic very well, in my opinion. More important than the opinion was why they had it, what factors or experience shaped it. These insights should remain valuable for readers until the technology moves on to other transmissions in years ahead.

One thing the forum is not about is "it's Wednesday night - not much to do - log on to exploroz - nothing new - who can I stir up in the forum to fill in some time before I go to bed". I had enough of that happening to my and other peoples posts years ago when the internet was very young and have not posted anything anywhere for 15 or so years until joining exploroz. Having posts attacked in a public areas puts one off for a long time. It is fortunate that now there are codes of conduct and moderators.

While I agree with some that without some banter the forum is a bit flat this is a price well worth paying to keep the forum interesting to a broader audience and for the longer term.

The amount of threads on this forum ..... and many others ... that has had me thinking the exact same thing as Kims starter post comments - is rather huge.

The style of writing of some posters ( various forums ) leads me to presume that, rather than take a moment to learn something - they are relying on being "told" how to do something ... and the helpful info received from someone will be discarded as soon as it is used.

Constant new threads on the same general topics make also searching a time wasting endeavour ( as opposed to a waste of time )

I much prefer a system where a thread can be resurrected which in effect updates old info by the addition of new ... and also reduces the number of threads to be trawled through. Of course that system still relies on people taking the time to have a bit of a look before posting a new thread.

Additionally, "searching" is a form of studying a topic IMHO ... and the info will be retained a lot longer when one has to do some work to find it. Hints and tips on where to find it are always a good thing - and I am forever grateful to those that include links in their thread responses.

There is nothing wrong with asking a question ... I just think as much effort should go into the question as what is required in answer. e.g. something like ...

"I just bought a toyssanwu - what tyres should I have ?"

Is one I will generally bypass in favour of someone asking a similiar question in reference to their area of use and driving style.

Lets face it ... if some has just bought something with no idea of its application or abilities ... should they have bought it ???