Climbing Ayers Rock (Uluru)

Traditional ownership - Erosion???? what a joke

And about time too, I could never understand why people would want to climb a Uluru. Especially if it offends the local people.

You would not walk into a town and do something that offends the locals why do it out there ?

I have visited Uluru and have never had the slightest desire to climb it especially now you can take so many charter flights and get a better view.

I agree with D200DUG. We wouldn't accept the indigenous people climbing our cathedrals so why should we think it alright to climb theirs!

I'd say there's a fair bit of tongue biting, judging by the 90 views and 2 replies

Catholics too would be pretty upset if a bunch of muslims climbed all over the alter at St Peter's.

the day they close off the climbing is the day they will kiss the tourist dollars goodbye and we will have more to support

i have climbed it because it was a challenge to me

it seems if there is a dollar involved sometimes it becomes more sacred

steve

Another "thin edge of the wedge" in my opinion.....Arnhem Land being another example......

For goodness sake, if "they" can claim that the rock is their traditional ground, then it follows that they could legitimately claim the whole country as "theirs" in a traditional sense. So, it could follow that "they" could tell the vast majority of this country's inhabitants that they may not walk on ANY part of their country. What about if "they" say that the whole Mount Kozi' region is sacred ground (say anything higher up than Jindabyne) and that they want that closed off....... or what about Sydney Harbour region and it's surrounds? We know for a fact that the original inhabitants of this country lived in that region and (presumably) had various cultural traditions and ceremonies that were carried out there prior to 1770..... Does that mean that "they" can tell us all to POQ away from Sydney?

Seriously, what is this country coming to? Erosion???? Yes, well, I suppose if a million people a year climbed the rock for next 1,000,000 years, there may be some modicum of erosion caused by all those feet!!!! How ridiculous!!!!

I mentioned Arnhem Land above. If I try to drive into that region I will be in deep doo-doos. Same goes for Surveyor-General's Corner and numerous other isolated places. Is this not a form of discrimination? What would happen if we put up a huge sign on every road leading into Adelaide (or other city), stating that it is illegal for you to enter this region unless you meet certain criteria relating to your heritage?????

Hmmmm, I think I've gone far enough for one rant......

Roachie

I climbed it and dont and never will see anything wrong with that.
It is a natural formation that predates any life let alone indigenous australian life by so long it makes humans seem insignificant.
I climbed it for the same reason I climbed mt bruce, mt meharry, peak charles, mt ragged, frenchmans peak, mt mary, mt wudinna, etc etc and for the same reason im going to climb mt Augustus

- to see what i can see from the top
Thats what hills, mountains are for , not for overregulating for ANY reason

Image Could Not Be FoundWhen we went there in May the first thing that became obvious to us was a thin white line quite visible up the face of it. Later we discovered to our dismay that it was the designated climbing track.
We had no desire to climb it, albeit the climb was closed due to rain, I wasn't about to become statistic # 36 with my crook ticker.
I can understand the dollar factor, but the rock is showing signs of the climbers and to us that took something from it's attraction, sort of commercialised it.
However many people out there were disappointed that it was closed for the day, as they came all that way to climb it.
BTW we thought the $25 per head to get in was a bit how-do-ya-do, and then you can't photograph the locals or certain sites.Image Could Not Be Found
Anyone that hasn't seen the climb track, it's bloody steep.

Be interesting to do a poll on this one. My vote goes with the TO's. Cheers.

Roachie, all indigenous sacred sites are "natural phenomena". You need a little more understanding re how indigenous people relate to the land.
For what its worth, climbing the rock in itself is not the problem for the local TO, but people killing themselves on the climb is very disturbing to them. Check the plaque at the bottom of the climb re the number who have died up there.
Not sure about how seriously they view erosion, but it is now more than just temporary staining. A real groove is being worn. This is not uncommon on much travelled rock surfaces. Some of the tracks in the Grampians, for example are on the way to being an issue as well.

Oh well here goes.............

I understand respect to be a 2 way street.
I respect their right to uphold their beliefs, but they need to respect my right to have the freedom associated with our culture.
to say its "their" country is about as racist as one can get.
It "Our" country. Belonging to all Australians regardless of race.

"Traditional Ownership" ???? WTF

Who originally inhabited Sudan? What about the Maldives?
England?, America, Jamaica? Poland, etc etc...
I originally owned a piece of land in Baulkham Hills.
It been sold. Yes I hold some traditional sentimentality to it, but it now belongs to someone else. Ownership changes. get over it!
Perhaps the path of ownership is ominous as land was "stolen", but stolen from who. Aboriginal culture does not believe in land ownership. The land is viewed as its own spiritual entity.
History is frought with records of invasion all over the world. Its what society did in the past. I accept it was probably not right or just, but it was the way it was.
We can't view it as wrong, as at the time it was considered right. Politcally correctness was not even born.
We have evolved. Hopefully for the better.
Don't judge the past, but look to the future.

Perhaps a bit of mutual respect is what is needed.
If tourism and iconic enjoyment is considered necessary or wanted, then let people climb it. After visiting, I believe people respect the sacred areas and do the right thing when asked. By the same token, the aboriginals need to accept western civilisations desire the climb it. It is not "trampled over" as some threads have suggested. Merely walked on in a specific path that has become iconic to our culture. (and by "our" our refer to modern australians, including all black and white)

To refer to muslims climbing all over cathedrals is hogwash. Sure it would upset people if they started scaling the walls or grifity'ing the stained glass windows, but to merely walk the paths and view the tradition with respect and learning, would probably be a good step forward for mutual respect.

I have seen many people walk, view and photograph numerous churches. I do it myself. With respect and dignity.
The same way I climb the rock. With a respect for its cultural, geological and iconic significance.

Open your eyes to some respectful learning.

Ignorance fuels hatred.

Brian

Sorry - but this country is as much mine as it is theirs.

If a white Kiwi [Hillary] had heard the traditional cry of sacred ground would he have still climbed Mt.Everest ? It is just as sacred to the Nepalese. Ayers rock is Australian and belongs to ALL Australians not just to a few .

To Roachie and Syeven............Well thoughtout and written

Congratulationg


Trouper

Image Could Not Be Found

Spoke to some indigenous people in Doomadgee and they visited Uluru and saw no reason not to climb the rock while they were there.

"lack of toilet facilities" makes me laugh if it is true. Would neex explosives to put a drop-hole at the top.

"erosion"? I wonder just how long it takes for the painted line to disappear from footsteps.

From an article in The Age: (from http://www.theage.com.au/news/national/young-australian-tania-major/2007/01/25/1169594432321.html)


"Tania Major, pictured with Prime Minister John Howard, has been named Young Australian of the Year.

Ms Major said she planned to urge people to give each other a fair go. "I want to encourage all Australians to be part of making a difference and giving all people a fair go — indigenous people, people from all sorts of different backgrounds, people of all types, shapes and colours," she said.

"I've travelled the world and we have this identity of giving everyone a fair go, but do we really give a fair go to all Australians? If non-indigenous and indigenous young people come together to learn about each others' cultures, to learn the real history of this country and acknowledge it, this will hopefully improve the way we all interact.""

Watch only the first 20 secs http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rv6htb2zdRk
4 of her classmates committed suicide, 7 jailed, only 3 out of 15 NOT alcoholics. She's the only one to finish yr12 and go to university.

At least there is a call for public comment.
Make sure you read all of the 186 pages first..lol

Uluru-Kata Tjuta National Park Draft Management Plan - call for public comment

If it happens it would be a real shame, and a guaranteed way to increase the divide between people.

I thought we were all mature enough to accept that natural wonders throughout this country should be set aside in national parks etc, and made available for all to enjoy as they wish.

This is the info i got out of todays NT news

Uluru climb to be banned

July 8th, 2009

THE Uluru climb is almost certain to be closed, probably in about two years.

Parks Australia has called for public comment on a plan to ban tourists clambering up the 348m rock.

The plan runs for 10 years.

But Parks Australia head Peter Cochrane today dropped strong hints that Uluru would be closed to climbers sooner rather than later.

The comment period closes in early September.

A final document will then be sent to the Federal Government, which controls the national park.

Mr Cochrane said the tourism industry would then be given at least 12 months to adjust their marketing campaigns.

That means The Rock could be closed by October 1 in 2011, the start of the hot season in Central Australia.

Mr Cochrane said there were three main reasons for banning climbers:

SAFETY - 35 people died in the 25 years to the year 2000, but none have died since climbing restrictions were introduced;

ENVIRONMENTAL damage - the sandstone rock suffers erosion and human waste is washed down into waterholes by rain; and

CULTURE - traditional owners don't like people climbing over something they consider sacred.

This is one of those topics that will (almost always) polarise public opinion and, often, allow bigotry to raise its ugly head.

And I’ll preface my post by saying that I have previously visited areas where traditional land owners have requested you do not do so out of respect for their culture.

After reading a post on here regarding a book “Why Warriors lie down and die” I purchased it and found it gave a fascinating insight to aboriginal culture that I was completely ignorant of.

The book gives non-aboriginal people a chance to take a look at the other side of the cultural and language divide. I would recommend it as essential reading for those wanting to make informed decisions about the issues raised on restricting access to cultural areas of significance to Australia’s aboriginal people.

It is easy to say that all Australians should have unfettered access to all parts of our continent, and I’m not suggesting that shouldn’t be the case. However, shouldn’t we at least try and understand both sides of the argument rather than just rolling out the usual plethora of clichés as reasons why we should dismiss the views of the aboriginal community as irrelevant in this day and age?

Cheers

A few facts to consider. The area is owned by the local TOs and leased back to National Parks. Legally it is "theirs", consider ourselves privileged that permission is given for us to visit.

The TOs do not want people climbing their sacred site (read the signs at the base of the climb).

A good analogy I heard this morning.

Imagine how you would feel if a group of TOs turned up at the Australian War Memorial in an AAT Kings coach and proceeded to climb up and over the memorial because they had no idea or appreciation of how sacred a site it was to "white"Australia.

I have traveled far and wide across Australia and part of the planning has been obtaining permits or permission to traverse certain areas, a pretty simple task. The only areas I have been refused permission where owned and controlled by non Aboriginals.

If you are invited onto my private property I would expect you to respect my wishes on where you can go and what you can do there, simple courtesy really.

Now that my Pics have been moderated and maybe rightfully so.
The pics unfortunately show exactly how the majority in fact are and how they choose to spend there money that the working population give them....In saying this In my travels I have meet Aboriginal tour guides that I couldn't speak more highly of such as last year the tour guide on the Hay River "Chris from Batton Hill camp ground"....Good bloke!! They have made that decision to make something of themselves through there knowledge of the land &/or have joined in with society and got themselves a job in a shop in Alice springs etc. But unfortunately you see the majority hanging around the streets bludging smokes and dollar coins...there choice!!

Last year we drove the Andado Tk and the scenery was breathtaking, definitely some of the most picturesque natural bushland on the edge of the desert, then you drive into the Aboriginal community of Santa Teresa........Holy Crap!!!!! Cars on there roofs cars burnt out rubbish everywhere and for taking the risk of being moderated by pics I also will not state what the young kids were doing on the side of the road.

Actions speak louder than words....good or bad

Ah, the answer is simple (TIC):
a chairlift to the top will prevent the dreaded erosion
a set of porta-loos at the top will answer the 'lack of toilet facilities'
and a viewing platform with a tall perimeter fence will prevent further fatalities.

Best of all, it will create jobs! :)

it is interesting that in my moderated post I asked a question if people would be offended if something they held dear and of cultural and historical significance was desecrated ?

In reply there were threats and schoolyard insults for even asking a question. So people do understand the concept of being disrespectful to something held to be sacred. Apparently they do not understand the concept of being disrespectful to something held sacred by "Other" people.

Some people suggested after my post that I had no regard for the Australian flag and that people "Other" people had fought and died under that flag may I give a little of my family history so those people understand where I came from and why I have no great regard for any National flag including that of Australia.

My family has a proud military history but has never been members of the RSL.

Both my Grandfathers fought on Gallipoli and the western front in WW1.
Three of my Great Uncles did the same one died in the battle of Lone Pine.
My Grandmother was a Red Cross nurse during WW1.
My Father and my 3 uncles served in WW2 so did one of my Grandfathers and 2 of my Great Uncles who had seen service in WW1. My Mother was land Army.

I served in the RAAF and did 3 operational tours in SE Asia ( that I am due decorations for ) My wife is an Ex Army Nursing Sister and my Son Ex Army ending his service with the regiment in Perth.

So I do find it a little offensive to have my heritage and dedication to Australia questioned.

None of my family ever served or fought for a flag, they all served and fought for the idea of a fair go for the underdog, to stop people from being persecuted and for their mates.

This is an idea that I still hold dear and that I use when fighting for a better deal for all service veterans with governments. I am not in good health after being exposed to various chemicals during my service but I still find the time to lobby Government for various causes relating to Military compensation.

If anybody wishes to question my dedication and loyalty please do so after reading this.

I still hold little regard for any flag including the flag of Australia. I show it respect because I know there are people who do care about it and do feel it has a significance for them, ( for reasons I am happy to admit I do not understand )

I just think people are far more important. If I can show respect to others by a simple action, or inaction, then why not do that? God knows in the last 200 years there has been scant respect shown to Aboriginal people. There are so many many rocks in Australia that can be climbed why not climb them and leave Uluru alone just to be a magnificent symbol of Australia ?

Doug,

the problem is, if 'we' all go climb another rock, that rock will become culturally significant.

regards, Nige