My religous feelings about ABS in the bush

Submitted: Saturday, Jul 11, 2009 at 18:47
ThreadID: 70584 Views:3631 Replies:13 FollowUps:14
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On a very recent trip, where one section covered over 165K of outback track, I became increasingly grumpy at not having the ability to switch off the ABS.

Now before you all jump down my throat, let me explain first.

The area we were travelling in had a considerable dump of rain about a week before we arrived. There were numerous creek crossings and spoon drains in the southern section but the track had pretty much dried out.

The creek crossings were usually defined by a tree line so we knew what to expect and slowed down to approximately 15k/hr prior to entering the creek proper whereby the speed was usually at walking pace.

Since this was relatively early in the morning, shadows play tricks across the road making it virtually impossible to recognise those little mongrel dips prior to the crossing, which catch you out.

Even at this very low speed there is a resounding thump and often the front wheels will leave the road on the exit point of the entry dip. This is the area I have an issue with on dirt roads. ABS is a great invention, but like all manner of other technologies it’s not perfect.

ABS, in my opinion, is too good for its own use in the outback. Those critical moments whereby an experience driver needs to take control of the vehicle is mitigated by technology. I’m starting to understand why I see many drivers go turtle bleep for no apparent reason.

The mate was following me in an ex Telstra Nissan with a tub on the back (no ABS). We stopped at a flooded section to have a look at it before crossing. I flew out off the car and carried on a bit about ABS. He asked what’s getting up your old arse. To which I replied, ‘if I don’t find the fuse to switch to turn it off, I’m going to shoot the bloody thing’.

In the Nissan he had no problems at all and we were both travelling at similar speeds.

As I said previously, I’m now starting to understand why I see so many unexplained accidents in the bush. Seems to me it’s caused by speed, inexperience and often technology not suitable in bush situation.

The latter may work well at home, but it needs a bit of refinement for the Australian bush, or at least the ability to turn the damn thing off.

Regards

Kim




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Reply By: get outmore - Saturday, Jul 11, 2009 at 18:53

Saturday, Jul 11, 2009 at 18:53
yea wasnt much of a rap for it the countless times i did the Nullagine to newman road where creeks were involved - you would hit the brakes as you went down into them and al,l you get is a vibrating pedal
AnswerID: 374082

Reply By: Tim - Stratford (VIC) - Saturday, Jul 11, 2009 at 19:36

Saturday, Jul 11, 2009 at 19:36
G'day Kim,

Just curious - was the road surface loose enough to lock the centre diff in?

I often curse the ABS coming down gravel roads from the High Country when you approach a corner to brake then hit the corrugations losing braking efficiency. Seems the ABS works against you with the vehicle 'sliding/skipping' along the tops of the corrugations. I then lock the centre diff (100 Series) and it seems to drive/brake much better - not 100% sure it's not psychological though :-)

Tim - Stratford.

AnswerID: 374089

Follow Up By: Horacehighroller - Saturday, Jul 11, 2009 at 20:00

Saturday, Jul 11, 2009 at 20:00
I believe that if you lock the centre diff in an 100 series it de-activates ABS.

I imagine the Prado should be the same.


(With locked diff on gravel it's like you're on rails.)

Peter
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FollowupID: 641319

Follow Up By: Kim and Damn Dog - Saturday, Jul 11, 2009 at 20:16

Saturday, Jul 11, 2009 at 20:16
Gidday Tim

The centre diff lock helps on loose ground, and in some cars if very effective in maintaining control. However, what I’m talking about are those situations whereby you have very little time to brake during an unexpected situation.

I’ve done thousands of Kilometres on outback roads and tracks and still get caught out from time to time. This usually occurs when I’m tired or heading into the sun.

Having said that, I still believe there should be an option to switch off ABS because I’m coming to believe it’s a dangerous tool in some circumstances.

Some years back I came around a bend on The Tanami at night and almost came to grief with a mob of cattle on the road. In that situation if the car was fitted with ABS I don’t think I’d be here writing about this.

Regards

Kim
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FollowupID: 641324

Follow Up By: Tim - Stratford (VIC) - Saturday, Jul 11, 2009 at 20:24

Saturday, Jul 11, 2009 at 20:24
Hmmm...how about pulling the fuse or undoing the wires at the back of the hubs??? No other ideas here - someones probably thought of a fix over at LCOOL - sorry, not much help on the flat country :-)

Tim
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FollowupID: 641326

Reply By: Member - Axle - Saturday, Jul 11, 2009 at 20:27

Saturday, Jul 11, 2009 at 20:27
G/day Kim, I hate The set up at all times!!, that and cruise control !.


I'll control the car thanks very much!, other than a bunch of wires.



Cheers Axle.
AnswerID: 374097

Follow Up By: Madfisher - Sunday, Jul 12, 2009 at 19:34

Sunday, Jul 12, 2009 at 19:34
Gooday Axle,
Got to disagree about cruise. It will stop you getting booked, which is the main reason I use it. Even use it to maintain 50 in a 50 zone. This is nearly impossible in a late model sedan, in fact I recently found myself doing 130, in a 206kw aurion when I was intending to cruise at 110. Just was involved in conversation and did not notice the speed creeping up. But I never use when towing, or on wet roads, I do not want it putting to much power down exiting and uphill cnr.
I bet you have already found that lovely lexus v8 getting away on you. lol
Cheers Pete
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FollowupID: 641446

Reply By: BenDiD - Saturday, Jul 11, 2009 at 21:34

Saturday, Jul 11, 2009 at 21:34
Hi Kim,

Sorry, I know I am being a bit thick, but I am not sure I understand the issue correctly.

Are you saying that ABS doesn't work properly on gravel / dirt / corrugations. Or that it does work OK but that in the examples you give - emergency braking on those types of roads that an experienced driver can do a better job?

cheers

Ben

AnswerID: 374110

Follow Up By: Kim and Damn Dog - Sunday, Jul 12, 2009 at 21:19

Sunday, Jul 12, 2009 at 21:19
Gidday Ben

I’ll try to explain as well as I can. First of all I’ve never come across the perfect driver, so it would be dumb of me to say technology is not important.

However driver experience and judgement is the prime tool of safe travel, and I’ve talked about this before (no lecture intended). I believe ABS in most cars works very well on formed roads, but it doesn’t in many outback situations.

It simply can’t adjust to those critical moments where speed needs to be reduced to avoid a ‘crash bang’ situation over rough ground.

My strong argument is that all 4WD manufacturers should provide a disable switch to allow the driver to make the appropriate decision.

As for corrugations, I’ll leave that for another post, where I can rant and rave about the driving skills of some people.

Regards

Kim


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Reply By: Bonz (Vic) - Thoughtfully- Saturday, Jul 11, 2009 at 22:40

Saturday, Jul 11, 2009 at 22:40
I know what you mean Kim, the current car is very offputting with ABS and antiskid and anti yaw control or something, there is sure to be a fuse for the ABS. I know of a guy who has a switch to switch the ABS off if he needs to, its not on a 4WD but it wirks well I have driven the car and used the switch.
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AnswerID: 374117

Reply By: Crackles - Saturday, Jul 11, 2009 at 23:17

Saturday, Jul 11, 2009 at 23:17
Kim had a similar experience with the traction control on my Jeep in snow. Even though the JK has a switch that reduces the effect of stability/traction control it certainly gets confused at times where an experienced driver would make corrections before brake application. As with all things technical it doesn't take long for those on Forums to find which wire if switched will turn it all off so have a small modification to do soon :-)
Cheers Craig............
AnswerID: 374121

Reply By: Member - Stephen L (Clare SA) - Saturday, Jul 11, 2009 at 23:21

Saturday, Jul 11, 2009 at 23:21
Hi Kim
I know the feeling that you are talking about. Previous four wheel; drive vehicles that I have had, were non ABS, and you know just how much feel you have and the stopping ability of your vehicle. My first off road experience with our Prado and I came across a wash away at slow speed. Applying the usual pressure that I had done countless times on my old Pajero, the Prado hit the wash away at a far greater speed that I wanted. You can not say speed was a factor, as I was only travelling less than 40kph before having to apply the brakes. Up until this very day, this is my only beef with the vehicle - ABS brakes. Out in the bush, give my standard brakes any day.

Cheers

Stephen
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AnswerID: 374123

Reply By: Lenticular - Sunday, Jul 12, 2009 at 00:04

Sunday, Jul 12, 2009 at 00:04
Kim, My 98 Prado has ABS, and I have the same problem on steep sand tracks at Fraser Is. In high range, no brakes and a vibrating pedal. In low range however, the ABS is almost completely disabled (still works slightly, but allows good braking), so for a couple of years, I drove around in low range so as to still have brakes. After a big chat with the Toyota service guys, they advised me to just pull one of the power plugs on the side of the ABS pump module when I hit the sand. I've been doing that ever since. The ABS warning light comes on, advising that I don't have ABS, and the brakes work on the steep slippery stuff. The service guys also advised that I wouldn't do any damage at all by doing this.
I suspect that later models may have better-calibrated ABS, so the problem may not be so bad. Can any others comment ?
AnswerID: 374125

Reply By: Member - Mike DID - Sunday, Jul 12, 2009 at 07:34

Sunday, Jul 12, 2009 at 07:34
I've found the handbrake the only way to slow down, when the ABS decides it doesn't want to slow you down.
AnswerID: 374140

Reply By: Member - Pesty (SA) - Sunday, Jul 12, 2009 at 14:17

Sunday, Jul 12, 2009 at 14:17
A friend of mine from this forum with a GU has a switch on the ABS and he just switches it off, cant see why all ABS vehicles cant have this mod, as they are electrically operated.
Ahhh, just another in a long line of reasons to stay with the older model cruiser!

Cheers Pesty
AnswerID: 374190

Follow Up By: Member - Roachie (SA) - Monday, Jul 13, 2009 at 11:08

Monday, Jul 13, 2009 at 11:08
Hmmmm, don't know whether you're referring to my previous rig Pesty, but yes I did do that and it made the bloody thing a MUCH SAFER vehicle to drive.

I just removed the fuse and made up a replacement gizmo using a small piece of PC board, 2 prongs and a couple of wires leading up to the switch I mounted on the dash. It meant that I could instantaneously switch the ABS off, even in mid drift!!
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FollowupID: 641540

Reply By: Member - Andrew (QLD) - Sunday, Jul 12, 2009 at 15:24

Sunday, Jul 12, 2009 at 15:24
Been 3 months....time to bring up your bugbear again LOL

Andrew
AnswerID: 374194

Follow Up By: Member - Andrew (QLD) - Sunday, Jul 12, 2009 at 15:26

Sunday, Jul 12, 2009 at 15:26
I must say i agree with you wholeheartedly.

Andrew
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FollowupID: 641408

Follow Up By: Kim and Damn Dog - Sunday, Jul 12, 2009 at 20:33

Sunday, Jul 12, 2009 at 20:33
Gidday Andrew

Three months? It must be three years since my last dribble on about this pet hate. LOL

Regards

Kim
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FollowupID: 641467

Follow Up By: Member - Andrew (QLD) - Sunday, Jul 12, 2009 at 20:47

Sunday, Jul 12, 2009 at 20:47
You'll probably find it was 3 months.....http://www.exploroz.com/Forum/Topic/68056/ABS_Brakes_on_dirt_roads.aspx though it was only a reply...forgiven. LOL.

Andrew
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FollowupID: 641468

Follow Up By: The Explorer - Monday, Jul 13, 2009 at 00:28

Monday, Jul 13, 2009 at 00:28
Good work Andrew - MythBusters would have a hoot on this forum (assuming they got bored)

Cheers
Greg
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Reply By: Member - Smiley Bill - Monday, Jul 13, 2009 at 11:23

Monday, Jul 13, 2009 at 11:23
Hi all,

It seems that some people are expecting too much from ABS.

Its purpose is to keep the wheels turning while braking heavily so, if necessary, you can steer around an object instead of sliding into it.

On some road surfaces ABS increases the total braking distance needed. It is not a magic cure to stop in a shorter distance.

SB
AnswerID: 374315

Reply By: D200Dug- Monday, Jul 13, 2009 at 12:14

Monday, Jul 13, 2009 at 12:14
Having a new vehicle with ABS for the first time ever I thought it was important to know its benefits and limitations.

As soon as it had done a few 1000Ks we took it out and practiced emergency braking on various surfaces to see how it responded.

While I am not a huge fan of electronic features on 4WDs it is a fact that we have them on almost all modern vehicles.

It is up to the driver to know how their vehicle performs in given conditions and respond to that.

Blaming various systems for the drivers lack of skill does not work for me.

Rule 1 : If you cannot stop in time, you were going too fast for the conditions.

( I know because I have broken rule 1 myself on many occasions, I cannot blame brakes, tyres, suspension or anything else I have to say "I was traveling too fast for the conditions and learn from that " )
AnswerID: 374320

Follow Up By: Member - Roachie (SA) - Monday, Jul 13, 2009 at 13:53

Monday, Jul 13, 2009 at 13:53
Sorry, but I believe that is total BS in the case of ABS.

The brakes on my previous Patrol were equipped with ABS. On bitumen they were "normal" brakes; I never needed to undertake an emergency braking operation with them, so to me they were just "normal".

However, on gravel they were down-right suicidal. If you attempted to brake as you normally would on a non-ABS rig, the thing would just keep going as though the brakes had totally failed.

Once you were aware of this trait, it would indeed be possible to alter your driving style so as to not place yourself in a dangerous predicament: BY NOT EXCEEDING ABOUT 20K/H in the first place. They were, seriously, that bad. Now, I'm some young whipper-snapper who's only been driving for a year or so; I've been driving for about 40 years in all sorts of conditions.

I'm not saying I'm an expert, but I DO know how to adjust my driving style to suit the road conditions and having never had an accident (touch wood), I believe I have the runs on the board.

YMMV

Roachie

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FollowupID: 641559

Follow Up By: Member - Roachie (SA) - Monday, Jul 13, 2009 at 13:55

Monday, Jul 13, 2009 at 13:55
Bugga, missed a crucial word "not" as follows:

Now, I'm NOT some young whipper-snapper who's only been driving for a year or so; I've been driving for about 40 years in all sorts of conditions.
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FollowupID: 641560

Follow Up By: D200Dug- Monday, Jul 13, 2009 at 14:12

Monday, Jul 13, 2009 at 14:12
My point exactly, you need to know what your rig will do in an emergency situation so as to avoid it resulting in an accident.

You had a car that had lousy braking ability on dirt roads. You learn to deal with it or change something.

Remember the old days of drum brakes and the number of accidents because people did not warm them up after driving through water?

Or having brakes fail because they overheat coming down a steep hill ?

Is that the fault of the brakes or the driver for not knowing what was going to happen in a given situation?

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FollowupID: 641562

Follow Up By: Member - Roachie (SA) - Monday, Jul 13, 2009 at 16:29

Monday, Jul 13, 2009 at 16:29
I give up; you win!!! ;-)
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FollowupID: 641575

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