My Wiring Diagram. What do you think?

Tony,

Thanks for your email. What program do I need to open your attachment? it comes out as a .vsd file?

Matt

Good morning Matt
The program is Microsoft Visio.
If you still cannot open it I will try something else.

Tony

Good morning Matt
The program is Microsoft Visio.
If you still cannot open it I will try something else.

Tony

Tony,

I dont suppose you could print it from Visio into a pdf and try emailing that for me? Or even a jpeg.

Matt

Matt just changed it to jpeg.
Will email it.

Tony

Matt

Did you get the email?

Tony

Hooray finally made it work!! I hope.

My caravan's wiring diagram.
The original of this was taken from Plasmatronic's website and modified to suit my van.


Image Could Not Be Found

Hi Tony

Good diagram.

Yes the shunt makes things easier.

You just need a fuse on the vehicle circuit.

Why does your fridge by-pass the shunt ?

Regards

Derek

Hi Derek
There is a fuse in the positive side of the main circuit. Just after the main battery. Sorry cannot remember the exact amperage. 25 or 30 I think.

The fridge lives right next door to the battery - less wire to run. It has a 20 amp fuse in the positive line. The 12 volt element is 175 watt. On a 35 degree day the element holds the fridge around 2 degrees while travelling. No bull.
At present I am trying to work out how to connect it to the thermostat as under 28 degrees the lettuce etc.... is part frozen.
The Dept. of War aint happy.

Tony

Hi Tony

As current can flow in both directions you must protect the car from the caravan too so fit a 30A or 50A breaker at both ends of the charge cable.

There are cheap air-conditioning thermostats for automotive use that can be used on your fridge. Just place the probe near the lettuce :-)

Regards

Derek from ABR

Yes have got Derek.
I have been trying to remember what I had in line and for the life of me couldn't. I believe these days it is called C.R.A.F.T. Any way, after I sent the follow up I went out to have a look and it is a 30 amp breaker on the positive wire.

Aarrr must have a look for one must be easier than going into the main thermostat.

Thanks Derek

Tony

Is there a fuse between 240v battery charger and battery, of course not.

Maîneÿ . . .

Yes Mainey the "Smart" 240v charger has fuse protection.

Tony

Then I will RE-type it out, a bit slower and put in every word, just to keep it 'relevant' to what we are actually talking about, so there is no confusion.

Re ALL posts in this thread:
we are talking about a 'fuse' in the (+) CABLE that has been added BETWEEN the charger and the battery.

Please read all the posts carefully and stay on track, because it's accepted and actually shown here, there definitely are fuse's INSIDE the actual battery charger.

However that's NOT what post: "Follow-up 12 of 13" is referring to.

I have clearly asked:
"Is there a fuse *BETWEEN* the 240v battery charger *AND* the battery" ??

Even Follow-Up 7 of 13 above shows NO fuse in the actual (+) CABLE.


(unfortunately spell-check can't fix bad communication of thought)

Maîneÿ . . .

But Maîneÿ…* check-out how SÔLAR PÔWER™ & :3 Vølt Batteries can work *

Many battery chargers are not even supplied with the DC cables only terminals.

The installer will fit / make these cables. (You refer to ADDED)

The manufacturer has provided protection up to the exit point of DC power on the charger. (Cables fitted or not).

In many cases installers will fit a 2nd fuse to the output providing the double fusing that you are asking for.

Perhaps we should triple fuse…..

1x Inside the charger
1x Outside the charger
1x Where the charger connects to the battery

Perhaps we can also fit a fuse to the fuse ;-)

I think we are all on track but perhaps not yours.

Mainey.
I know what you were talking about.
I stated there were fuses in the charger.
Maybe I should have also stated that was the reason for none being in the line.
Also, maybe I should have stated that while I had it apart checking it I installed an extra fuse in the positive line of the charger -- accessable from outside.

Tony

Tony,
yes, you and I believe any person with even a small portion of common sense, understands you don't need to add any extra external fuse's in the (+) cable from a battery charger to the battery.
I will bet every battery charger made has internal fuse's fitted to comply with legal requirements, whether they have the battery cables attached internally by the manufacturer, or the charger has the external cable terminals attached is not relevant, because the battery charger electronics are protected by a fuse on both the 'in-put' and 'out-put' circuits, just as Derek has clearly shown in his picture and indicated on the 2 diagrams previously posted in this thread.


Derek,
As to your statement:
" The installer will fit / make these cables. (You refer to ADDED) "

What I've posted in English (with Spell check) is:
"Re ALL posts in this thread:
we are talking about a 'fuse' in the (+) CABLE that has been added BETWEEN the charger and the battery"

What that clearly means is:

"we are talking about a *fuse* . . . "
this *fuse* has been added - NOT the cables, because you can't "talk about a fuse" if there are no cables there to connect the fuse to - can you ?

. . . reason being: the cables have to be there first
. . . the fuse can't be added *with-out* the cables - can it ?


Derek, you say: "In many cases installers will fit a 2nd fuse to the output providing the double fusing that you are asking for"

Derek, I'm DEFINATELY NOT asking for a second fuse at all, please get your facts correct, my diagram clearly shows NO FUSE in the actual battery charger cable, neither does Tony's diagram, because I'm aware ALL battery chargers are fused by the manufacturer and requires no further fuse, not a 2nd or even a 3rd.


Derek, please attempt to maintain the integrity of the thread by not attempting to change what other people are posting, we all know you don't need extra fuses so why you suggest you may need 2 or even 3 or more fuse's is unbelievable to me.

ps Derek, please learn how to 'copy' peoples posts correctly
no mine are not copy righted, but neither are yours either :)

Maîneÿ . . .

Ahh... Now we are getting somewhere.

So what happens if the cable between the battery and the charger goes to ground ?

I DO recommend the charger be fused at the battery or fuse box in FIXED installations. This is because the cable has live battery power enough to start an engine (or fire) all the way up to the charger. Always mount fuses close to the battery and use a master fuse if needed.

Not trying to change what other people are posting just trying to make sure they have the right advice from someone who knows.

Derek, you have *changed* what I've said . . . again

. . . . now your claiming it's a FIXED connection

* I've never stated it's FIXED, please read the entire thread carefully *

Who the hell needs a fixed 240v battery charger installed when they have a decent Solar power system ?

Yes, in a FIXED system you may need a fuse, BUT with 'normal' Alligator clips on a 240v battery charger, you simply leave them disconnected, then you can connect them to *what-ever battery* you need to charge, not just the battery it's connected to, but also friends Aux batteries and Cranking batteries too - if you have 240v available?

Carrying the dead weight and using space for a 240v battery charger makes no sense, as there's no 240v available in the bush where the Solar system will not allow the Aux battery system to need any extra charging anyway.




Funny thing is, you NEVER advised Tony to ADD a fuse in the (+) battery charger cable in his diagram :-)

Can you please explain why Tony obviously does NOT need an extra fuse in his (+) battery charger cable ??


You posted: "You just need a fuse on the vehicle circuit"

Derek can you please explain why Tony's 240v battery charger (+) cable does NOT need a fuse, or does the answer totally screw up your argument ?

Maîneÿ . . .

Matt's drawing shows 25mm2 cable and 100A fuses protecting it.

I am happy with that !

Perhaps you overlooked that part of the circuit.

Derek,
your having a bad run, read what I posted please, and don't keep changing things, just to suit you

I clearly asked:

"Derek can you please explain why *Tony's* 240v battery charger (+) cable does NOT need a fuse, or does the answer totally screw up your argument ? "
You posted: "You just need a fuse on the vehicle circuit" on TONY'S diagram


That has nothing to do with "Matt's drawing shows 25mm2 cable and 100A fuses protecting it" does it?

Two different diagrams from two different guys.

Why not answer direct questions put to you with the truth ??


I ask again:
Funny thing is, you NEVER advised *Tony* to ADD a fuse in the (+) battery charger cable in his diagram :-)

Can you please explain why *Tony* obviously does NOT need an extra fuse in his (+) battery charger cable ??


You posted: "You just need a fuse on the vehicle circuit"

Derek can you please explain why *Tony's* 240v battery charger (+) cable does NOT need a fuse?

Obviously your answer will totally screw up your argument ?

Maîneÿ . . .

"Matt's drawing shows 25mm2 cable and 100A fuses protecting it.

I am happy with that !

Perhaps you overlooked that part of the circuit. "

Have a look at the circuit again !!!!

Follow-up 7 of 21
Submitted: Wednesday, Jul 15, 2009 at 16:36
Member - Tony S (WA) posted:

Derek this is the post and picture I'm referring to
please don't get confused and keep talking about something not relevant.

I will ask you again:
Funny thing is, you NEVER advised *Tony* to ADD a fuse in the (+) battery charger cable in his diagram :-)

Can you please explain why *Tony* obviously does NOT need an extra fuse in his (+) battery charger cable ??

You posted: "You just need a fuse on the vehicle circuit"

Derek,
can you please explain why *Tony's* 240v battery charger (+) cable does NOT need a fuse?



Image Could Not Be FoundMaîneÿ . . .

I am referring to Matt's drawing.




Tony's drawing and proportions showing the position of the shunt and battery in relation to the charger would indicate that the battery and charger are situated very close to each other. Yes if there is a distance of cable it should be fused.

"Follow-up 7 of 21"
Derek this is the post and picture I'm referring to

Now you say: "Yes if there is a distance of cable it should be fused"

please tell us what this distance is ?
is it in excess of or less than 100cms ?

Who, or what mathematical formula dictates the length of the cable can be used before an external fuse must be installed in the cable ?




Tony's drawing is a schematic diagram, as is also stated under my diagram, the length of the 'red line' is not relevant to the actual length of the (+) cable required, but placed there so it goes from each device picture clearly and showing the connection between each device.

Maîneÿ . . .

I recommend the 7-40-72 rule on DC loads.

Fuses or breakers are required within 18cm (7") of the battery switch on wires leading to various loads, the 18cm (7") dimension can be extended to 101cm (40") if wires are enclosed in a sheath or conduit in addition to the wire primary insulation, and within 183cm (72") on wires leading to loads directly from a battery.

Derek,

? ? ? NOW for some HUMOUR ? ??

I presently don't have a 'train drivers license' either
Image Could Not Be Foundnow we are on the same track
as to what track isn't relevant

Maîneÿ . . .

Thanks Mainey,

1. The most power hungry item I have is the inverter. It will rarely be used. Mainly for charging laptop, camera and phone batteries. The only reason that I went for the 100amp circuit breakers was that as both batteries will be permanently in Parallel. The inverter is 600w normal and 1200w peak. 1200/12 = 100amps. Am I being over ambitious here? Should I go for 50 amps instead?

2. The Battery charger and inverter were both going to be attached to a common positive terminal. I agree that my drawing is pretty average. What I planned to do was have all the positives to a common positive point and all the negatives to a common earth point.

3. Can I run the inverter through the Solar controller? I thought that if I could keep the wire short and straight to the battery's it would stop as much voltage drop as possible.
If I could run the inverter through the solar regulator that would be better.

Cheers

Matt

That seems like sound advice, Clay - similar to the way the car is wired: a fusible link on the main wire from the +ve battery terminal running to a fuse box where each circuit is split and fused according to power requirements.

It appears to be what Matt has in mind with his fuse box over on the RHS of the diagram combined with the circuit breakers on each battery. Perhaps you are suggesting he just needs to connect the invertor to that fuse box as well?

The only other comment I would make is that if my understanding of solar controllers is correct (solar controllers only control voltage so you don't boil your batteries) there appears to be no fault protection on the output of the solar panels - should this have a breaker or fuse or does the solar controller have inbuilt protection against faults/shortcircuits down the line?

Thanks Mainey,

So AGM A And B are still directly linked. This is pretty much what I was trying to Draw. You have just done it a lot better. The battery charger will still charge both a and b agms and the inverter will draw off both.

Matt

Matt,
Yes, the Solar system charges the two batteries and also powers the Accessories direct, while it's producing power, only the excess current required by the accessories is taken from the batteries, so they are usually still fully charged at end of day to run accessories at night and then be recharged again next morning.

I would suggest you add a four point power board (with individual on/off switchs) to the Inverter, to charge many items similtaneously, rather than charge them one at a time.

I use a 50 Amp ceramic fuse to my fridge and all the rest run on various size fuses, max 30 Amp, the inverter runs direct (I know it's not recomended - do as I say - not as I do) it has an internal fuse and auto disconnect for overload situations.

The batteries both share the same load.

Maîneÿ . . .

Nice diagram Maîneÿ

Thanks

Pete

Pete,
thank you, it takes just a bit longer than writing about it and then have some-one misunderstand the information contained with-in the post.

Maîneÿ . . .

Th wiring to the battery Charger and Inverter are a fire hazard as there is no protection - if these wires short to ground there be burning plastic and red-hot copper flying everywhere.

Car-size batteries are dangerous sources of power - a breaker or Fuse must be placed as close as possible to the Positive Terminal.

Mike,
do you use a fuse in your battery charger cables ??

Maîneÿ . . .

In the last thirty years I've never needed the benefits of a seatbelt - but every time I get the car I put it on.

Yes, I fuse every connection to a battery.

Mike,
it's good to read you use a seat belt too
However I've just looked at some 12v battery charger sites, none are showing a "14.4v, 30 amp, 4 stage battery charger" as Matt uses, with a fuse in the charging cable to the battery being charged ?

Maîneÿ . . .

Thanks Mainey and Mike DID for your concern,

My Battery Charger is internally fused. I know this as I have already blown an internal fuse. Spade type 40amp. So that covers the battery charger.

The Inverter is also fused on the body of the inverter. The instructions reccomend that if mounting close to source there is no need to fuse the supply. If the battery's both have circuit breakers and the charger and inverter are internally fused that will cover all bases.

Keep in mind that the batterys will be secure and the charger, inverter, fuse board and solar reg will all be mounted within 300-400mm of the Batterys.

I think that as ong as everything is secured. The right size wire is used (and protected with corrigate and heatshrink) it should be ok.

Thanks for your great input guys. I really appreciate it

Matt

Is Ok Matt, I believe all 240v powered 12v battery chargers and Inverters are internally fused, hence my post information.

You did say all appliances were being placed in the front "box" so cable length and security was not critical as it is not dificult to fix the cables into place firmly and therefore safely.

Enjoy your trip away

Maîneÿ . . .

Cheers Mainey,

Will do. Might see you out on the road or fishing somewhere. I am going to have a bit of a blog on here and we have or own website. First stop Geraldton for a few days, then on to Quobba for some fishing! Cant wait.

Matt

P.S.

Make sure your total load does not exceed the 20A Solar regulator.

Matt's accessories are stated as:
a. 4 x 12v 36 LED Globes in roof lights
b. 2 x 12v LED reading lamps
c. ShureFlo water pump
d. 12v Range hood
e. 100Lt upright Engel fridge.

With the system I've displayed it's well with-in the Steca's capability, because the Inverter is powered from the 200 ah AGM battery system and as I have stated above, I don't use a fuse in my Inverter cable, but I don't recomend any-one do as I do.

I believe Matt will never (ever) get below 12.1 Volts from his AGM battery system, as I've a much higher current draw from my only slightly higher battery capacity, but I've never seen it under 12 Volts, even at night or first thing in the morning.

Maîneÿ . . .

??????‹(•¿•)›???????????MAINEY????MAINEY????????‹(•¿•)›????????

Great you must live pretty close to the sun, but I would not take your advice. Matt is a tradesman with technical and refrigeration background and can work out some figures for himself.

"Just finishing off the wiring in my van (we leave to spend a few years on the road in 17 days!)"

I estimate he will use 80 to 100 amps per day. If he has sunlight every day for the next few years then great.

I DON'T THINK SO !

a. = 1.6A
b. = 0.8A
c. = 5.0A
d. = 5.0A
e. = 6.0A
f. = 3.0A - CD player.

Total including start up currents etc. 21.4A

This is close to the regulators max. I would say he should use a 30A Regulator.

He should also include a car charge circuit for charge / drive application and invest in a generator for emergency charging WHEN YOUR SUN DOES NOT SHINE !

Matt Brook (Project Manager/Coordinator)

Matt has a trade background of mechanical fitting and refrigeration, allowing him to understand our Personnel’s needs first hand. Matt coordinates our Personnel and logistical services from our office in Port Kennedy (Western Australia), forty minutes south of Perth, and conducts site visits as required.

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Project 005 started on 10/05/2007 at Secret Harbour, WA. PGSR provided 2 Mech Fitters for Mobile Tool Container Construction.
Project 004 started on 14/05/2007 at Minara Murrin Murrin, WA. PGSR provided a Supervisor, 5 Mech Fitters and 2 Riggers for a Steam Turbine Major Inspection.
Project 003 started on 16/04/2007 at Minara Murrin Murrin, WA. PGSR provided 2 Mech Fitters for a ABB Gas Turbine Minor Inspection and Generator inspection.
Project 002 started on 17/05/2007 at Alcoa Pinjarra, WA. PGSR provided 2 Leading Hands, 2 Mech Fitters and 2 Riggers for a Steam Turbine Major Inspection, Unit 3.
Project 001 started on 3/04/2007 at Shell Clyde Refinery, NSW. PGSR provided a Mech Fitter for a Steam Turbine Inspection.

Yes Derek, as you have clearly shown and indeed proven beyond any doubt,
Matt definitely IS competent and also very qualified
that MUST be the reason Matt posted to me:

"Thanks Mainey,
So AGM A and B are still directly linked.
This is pretty much what I was trying to Draw.
You have just done it a lot better.

The battery charger WILL STILL CHARGE BOTH 'A' and 'B' AGM's
and the inverter will draw off both.
Matt."

Derek, yes, obviously Matt does know what he's talking about
because as you have clearly shown, Matt is truly qualified

So Derek, why do you also disagree with Mark's post to me ?
( or is it just a personality disorder? )

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

Derek, The battery charger is a 240v, 30 Amp, 4 stage battery charger.

Power 'in' is ONLY supplied by 240v home or Caravan Park 240v system.

Power 'out' is by the 2 cables attached to the 240v battery charger, which usually ONLY have "Alligator Clips" at each end, to easily attach to the 'discharged battery' after all how do you use a 240v battery charger while your driving - between towns ?

As I've printed below the diagram, it's a "Schematic (+) cable design only"

I did not say or even suggest in any way it was BOLTED to the battery - did I ??
Image Could Not Be FoundIt's not this 240v battery charger you sell
it has NO fuse attached to the red “out-put” cable.


Derek, do you sell any 240v battery chargers with an in-line fuse ??
NO, you don't either
They are not made, because fuse's are NOT required on the (+) outlet cable.

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

Then you post the following information:

a. = 1.6A (4 x 12v 36 LED Globes in roof lights)
b. = 0.8A (2 x 12v LED reading lamps)
c. = 5.0A (ShureFlo water pump)
d. = 5.0A (12v Range hood)
e. = 6.0A (100Lt upright Engel fridge)
f. = 3.0A (CD player)
Total including start up currents etc. 21.4A
This is close to the regulators max. I would say he should use a 30A Regulator"


Derek,
obviously you don't know a lot about how an (efficient) Solar power system works.

To get the 21.4 Amps you claim, ALL Matts 12v electrical products would have to be running at exactly the same time, the 3 sets of lights, tap, range hood etc. the the chance of that is not too high is it?
Do Steca controllers cut off at exactly 20 Amps ?,
obviously that's why you say “This is CLOSE to the regulators max”
so it's not totally reasonable to change up to 30 Amp.

My Steca is only 15 Amps, I believe I draw as many amps as Matt will, I've never suffered cut-off.


Derek you then say:
"I estimate he will use 80 to 100 amps per day"

so what ??
the fridge will be the biggest user by far and it will only be ~48 Amps over 24 HOURS.

HOWEVER: Matts AGM's will be still fully charged at sundown each day
as the fridge, CD, tap etc. will ALL be run by the 160 Watt Solar system during the DAY, only at NIGHT will the fridge, lights etc draw on the battery for their power supply.

All these accessories will NOT use anywhere 80 Amps per NIGHT, what they use per DAY (sunlight time) does NOT matter because Matt's Solar system will provide the power for them.

Derek, if your Solar system does not work this way then you I suggest you need to upgrade to better technology ha ha ha

Maîneÿ . . .

Thanks Guys,

Sorry wasnt trying to start a blue or anything.

Yep thats me. Fridgy and Mechy fitter by trade. Pretty handy with steam and gas turbines too. I love working on 12v electrics and enjoy doing things correctly.

Its great to get so much feedback on what I am trying to acheive.

I reckon this is what my power will be. Though I will be able to tell you in about three weeks after a week on the road.

Item Amps ph Time Used Hours per day
Range HoodWith LED Globes 1.6 1 1.6
With Incandesant Globes 5 1 5
Fridge Averages 42AH a day 1.75 24 42
CD Player 3.2 3 9.6
Water Pump 5 1 5
Roof Lights With LED Globes 1 4 4
With Incandesant Globes 6 4 24
Reading Lights Only short test 0.6 1 0.6

87.8 Amps per day with Incandesant Globes
62.8 Amps per day with LEDS

Its amazing how much power you can save with LED's.

This obviously dosent take into account the inverter which will only be used every now and again. I have a small inverter in the car that we will run when driving around to charge camera, laptop and phone.

Thanks Guys again.

I will post some photos of my efforts before, during and after when shes all done.

Matt

Hi Matt

Yes your figures are good I was allowing for about 5A for an hour of laptop or camera charging per day by inverter and also about 55A per day for the fridge. I have a 90L upright Engel in my caravan.

Your charger will be fused internally all chargers have some form of protection.

All our chargers have an AC input fuse and a DC output fuse. Some of these DC fuses are electronic but most are simple blade type auto fuses. The AC fuses are sometimes covered in some heat shrink tube so can't be easily seen.

I'm sure you can work out that if you are say cooking a meal with lights on, some music playing, filling up the basin and the fridge switches on just after opening a beer your could exceed 20A but this is a worst case scenario.

I would still fit that circuit I mentioned for the radio memory codes and at least one light.

Regards

Derek from ABR

Derek,
we are talking about a fuse situated *in the red (+) cable*
between the Alligator clip and the battery charger - not inside the battery charger,
they are in built in to protect the electronics, inside the battery charger, but not placed in the actual (+) cable external to the battery charger, are they ?

Maîneÿ . . .

Yes, great idea.

I agree.

Was going to do that on the Windsor until I discovered I would have to just about strip all the cladding to get to the wiring.

Tony

Cheers Murray,

I have the same dilema as Tony. I already have a decent size wire running from the back to the front from when the van was made. If I was to split the system I would have to re run some more wiring. As its only 6 x LED's (Less than 2 amps being very conservative) and a cd player(maybe 5 amps) I wasnt to worried. If I blow fuses then I will re wire it.

Cheers

Matt