To all my fellow "Hoons"

Submitted: Friday, Jul 24, 2009 at 07:45
ThreadID: 70933 Views:5352 Replies:7 FollowUps:13
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Below is an extract from the minutes of the meeting with RTA NSW & 4WD NSW & ACT.

From 4WD NSW & ACT minutes:

We had a very enlightening meeting with the RTA, and are now aware of the circumstances of the introduction of the revised regulations. There will be a great deal of confusion for a period of time as the finer details are released to the engineers.We have requested that the RTA delay implementation to allow the situation to be clarified & we will approach the Minister directly to request that implementation be delayed. An answer is expected hopefully within the week on this issue. It was made clear that the new regulations are clearly aimed at a safety issue & consideration of other road users. The issue was hastened by a Coroners verdict which involved a fatality caused by a 4WD which had an excessive lift.

Points of clarification

1. The rules are not retrospective & will only apply to new modification to suspension.

2. If you have already booked, purchased or in the process of modifying your suspension up to +100mm, then we believe there will be a moratorium on the period you will have to complete the installation PRIOR to the application of the new regulations. This has yet to be confirmed in detail.

3. The installation of lifts up to +50mm will require a statement by the installer that the modification to the suspension has been completed according to the manufacturer’s instructions & specification, and in the correct tradesman like manner. The details of the statement required are to be advised in due course.

4. Lifts in excess of 50mm will be allowed but will require certification by a RTA certified authority but will have a conditional registration, the details of which have yet to be approved.


Be assured that we are working to resolve this issue to achieve the best outcome for you as club members.As more details become available which clarify the situation, we will advise you. We will continue to make representation to the Minister, and urge you to make representation to your local MP in respect to the derogatory language, undue hast in implanting these issues and lack of consultation in the process.


The VSI50 is a working document, and as such the revised regulations will be applicable. However with the ongoing testing by the AAAA & National 4WD Industry Council, it is a possibility that with positive results we maybe able to have the regulation modified in due course The positive outcome to the meeting is an understanding that future developments by the RTA will be made in consultation with 4WD NSW-ACT Inc, where ever possible and they now have a greater understanding of our role in the community.

I hope this helps you "Hoons", Colin.
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Reply By: Robin Miller - Friday, Jul 24, 2009 at 07:55

Friday, Jul 24, 2009 at 07:55
The real hoons are those who try and force rules that aren't genuinely saftey related onto us e.g. an automatic no-no for above 100mm lifts no matter how safe the car is.

AnswerID: 375950

Reply By: Member - Oldplodder (QLD) - Friday, Jul 24, 2009 at 08:55

Friday, Jul 24, 2009 at 08:55
Does this include lowering by more than 50mm?

Just thinking of those ricers that are that close to the ground they have problems getting over speed bumps. Bit scarey being behind one that suddenly brakes because it has to crawl over a speed bump that is posted at 20km/hr, but it can only do 5km/hr otherwise it would scrape.
AnswerID: 375960

Follow Up By: OzTroopy - Friday, Jul 24, 2009 at 09:26

Friday, Jul 24, 2009 at 09:26
Theres a link to the NSW VSI 50 in the Hoon or Incompetent thread.
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Follow Up By: On Patrol & TONI - Friday, Jul 24, 2009 at 16:54

Friday, Jul 24, 2009 at 16:54
John
The feeling was that they are also the target, this report was from a 4WD perspective only. "The Ricers" as you so eloquently put it, are just as much in the sights of the RTA.
Cheers, Colin.
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Follow Up By: Brian (Montrose, Vic.) - Friday, Jul 24, 2009 at 23:03

Friday, Jul 24, 2009 at 23:03
Just for a giggle, I know of a wanna be ricer who lowered his Commodore by cutting the springs, illegal, I know but that didn't stop him, what did was the massively cut down springs falling out when he went over a speed hump and the chassis dragging on the road! And they call us dangerous!
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Reply By: vk1dx - Friday, Jul 24, 2009 at 09:17

Friday, Jul 24, 2009 at 09:17
Thanks Colin for your time and the update.

We are just looking at getting the LC raised as the departure angle decreases (increases??) quite a bit when all the camping, tentage and food etc etc is loaded into the back. It actually droops by about 2 inches. So we are getting the suspension fixed to get it back on the level so to speak.

Also we would prefer to leave the towbar on. No intention to use it apart from hiring a trailer for a rubbish run though.

Was that accident with the 4WD the one recently in the news down the NSW South Coast with the Subaru involved?

Anyway thanks for the update.

Phil (also in Canberra)
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Reply By: OzTroopy - Friday, Jul 24, 2009 at 09:25

Friday, Jul 24, 2009 at 09:25
Further thanks for your post.

Good to see the interest.

Its a shame that the responses to those 4 points were no different to the vagueness of the original document and press release.

Still .... at least they are getting their door banged on .......
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Follow Up By: On Patrol & TONI - Friday, Jul 24, 2009 at 17:00

Friday, Jul 24, 2009 at 17:00
OzT, I think the guys at the RTA are also frustrated and a little embarrased by such a Knee Jerk reaction by a minister of parliament.

While the RTA also see a need for some changes, at least they feel more thought should go into it rather than just labelling every one as a hoon and hitting us ALL with a big stick.
Colin.
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Follow Up By: OzTroopy - Friday, Jul 24, 2009 at 18:24

Friday, Jul 24, 2009 at 18:24
The one one I spoke to was more for utilizing the existing rules and enforcing them ... rather than implementing new rules on "non offenders"
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Reply By: Rockape - Friday, Jul 24, 2009 at 09:36

Friday, Jul 24, 2009 at 09:36
Coliin,
by what is stated, it seem's the decision to limit the mods is due to one bad accident involving a lifted 4wd.

Nothing!!!! appears to be happening about all the horrific accidents and deaths, caused by those who think they are invincible when driving a stock standard high horsepower vehicle.

Lets get that fixed first before worrying about the minority.

Maybe the RTA finds that to hard to fix.

Thanks for the post Colin.

Have a good one
AnswerID: 375966

Follow Up By: OzTroopy - Friday, Jul 24, 2009 at 09:53

Friday, Jul 24, 2009 at 09:53
Good point Rockape.

More to the point though is ......

Was the vehicle involved ... an illegally or incorrectly modified 4wd or one with an engineer approved and certified modification ?

And then of course there is also the scenerio circumstances of the accidents location to consider.
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Follow Up By: On Patrol & TONI - Friday, Jul 24, 2009 at 16:49

Friday, Jul 24, 2009 at 16:49
G'day rockape
The vehicle cited by the RTA was in response to questions regarding 4WD mods, but they are also more than very interested in the cars with no suspension to speak of, the utes that are so low that a match stick on the road would cause them a problem.

That prang, in context, was referring to questions re 4WD mods ONLY, it is in no way the sole reason for these rules.
Cheers Colin.
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Follow Up By: pop2jocem - Friday, Jul 24, 2009 at 18:05

Friday, Jul 24, 2009 at 18:05
Yeah, spot on Rockape, from memory the percentage of fatal or serious injury road accidents Australia wide were something like 96% driver error and 4%road/weather or vehicular failure. Looks like the biggest contributor might just be that component that is often referred to as the "loose nut behind the wheel" but as you say this is just too hard to fix.

Cheers Pop
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Reply By: On Patrol & TONI - Friday, Jul 24, 2009 at 16:41

Friday, Jul 24, 2009 at 16:41
Although I was not at the meeting, the concesus was that they (the RTA) have the "extream" vehicles in their sights, lowered or raised.

Lets face it, a "Patota" raised by 8-10" or a "Dathonda" lowered down to Zero" are equally "obvious and prime targets" for this ruling. Thats the reasoning for this Knee Jerk reaction. I have said it before and stand by it, that a well maintained vehicle with a mild lift 2-3" in a 4WD or a mild lowering in a car are nether too obvious or wild and therfore below the radar regarding policing of these rules.

Remember the rage by the RTA to trucks and the fitting of 100kph speed limiters, and how many of us have had trucks pass us now, at well in exess of that 100kph limit, so what happened to that rule once the heat died down, answer = zilch.

It is todays story but tomorrows faint memory.
Colin.
AnswerID: 376010

Follow Up By: ben_gv3 - Friday, Jul 24, 2009 at 18:13

Friday, Jul 24, 2009 at 18:13
That doesn't make sense if the RTA have the "extreme" vehicles in their sights but list a 50mm limit.

If they want to target extreme lifts then specify a height accordingly, like 150mm etc... Idiots need a reality check.
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Follow Up By: OzTroopy - Friday, Jul 24, 2009 at 18:32

Friday, Jul 24, 2009 at 18:32
ben ... This is not actually a RTA initiative .... It comes from the "office" of the RTA.

As much of a problem I have smiling and saying RTA at the same time ... Its a "desk based" engineering schedule ... not a "workshop" based one.

I actually have some pity for the poor sods this time, having to sort out the ministers directive.

And if the ministers office wanted "extreme" lifts targetted .... All it had to do was get the Police Service / RTA Inspectors ... to enforce the existing laws.
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Reply By: StormyKnight - Friday, Jul 24, 2009 at 19:59

Friday, Jul 24, 2009 at 19:59
The biggest issue with a raise vehicle is that in a head on collision the 'higher' vehicle will ride up over a smaller vehicle, thus defeating the safety devices inbuilt in both vehicles....

Ideally all vehicles on the road should have the same height bumperbars, but realistically this is difficult, but having a raised 4WD drive up a much smaller car & into the windscreen is something a small car owner wouldn't want to think about.

You could aurgue they wouldn't want to be hit by a semitrailer either, but at least the trucks bullbar is low enough to hit the bumperbar of the car....thus giving the safety devices of that smaller car a chance to help.

The other side of it, no pun intended is in a side on collision. Instead of the raise vehicle hitting the door of a sedan it may miss the door altogether & hit the window area....the sedan drivers & passengers heads are only 15-25 cm from that window & windows don't act like intrusion bars do!

Vehicles that share the roads have to be designed & regulated so that in the event of a collision, both vehicles can do the best that they can at protecting the occupants. 4WDrives already have the weight advantage in an accident which will reduce the G-forces on its occupants at the detriment of the smaller vehicles occupants....

Now I am a 4WDriver owner & I love the freedom it allows me to experience, but a motor vehicle accident can sometimes be an accident & sometimes some things can be done to limit the less desirable outcomes.

Might I also point out I do have an engineering certificate already for my car so I could legally have larger tyres on it....an extra 15mm in height.

Example with a stock height SUV @ 16km/h

AnswerID: 376043

Follow Up By: OzTroopy - Friday, Jul 24, 2009 at 20:47

Friday, Jul 24, 2009 at 20:47
some relevant points there ....Stormy

Have a look at the side of a semi trailer next chance you get tho - as side impact clearance is about headrest height on a normal pass veh.

Side intrusion / bullbars / bumperbars ... Those heights IMHO are really unimportant - when you consider bicycles / mpotorcyclists, army (govt) unimogs etc ......
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Follow Up By: On Patrol & TONI - Friday, Jul 24, 2009 at 22:11

Friday, Jul 24, 2009 at 22:11
Stormy
Therefore ALL vehicles must be as high as the lowest vehicle on the road, I see, interesting concept!!!!!!

Heck I wont get out of my drive if my car has to be the same hight as a Lotus or a Ferrari.

Makes for some interesting trucks on the road also.

Beaut concept but impossible to achieve with so many differing vehicle designs, even without modifications. And as OzTroopy posted what about bikes, or even horses, they are valid road users too. How far can this concept go?

My blog re "4WD Myths & Facts" covers this subject, have a look.
Cheers, Colin.
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Follow Up By: StormyKnight - Saturday, Jul 25, 2009 at 18:34

Saturday, Jul 25, 2009 at 18:34
Yes as I stated "realistically this is difficult". It will be incresingly so as electic vehicles become more of the norm as the weight difference will be too great to accept I fear - but there is no reason why 4WD's can't loose a few pounds too. Replace some metal with some lightter material. The average 4WD drive has a fair bit of sheet metal surface area afterall.

I have read your blog & agree will all but the following statement...

"To give an example the diesel Nissan Patrol or Toyota Landcruiser, can easily achieve 10.5 lt/100 km in highway driving conditions and actually less in urban driving. This is almost identical if not less than the average large station wagon."

A VY commodore will easily get 8.7l/100km on the highway & I suspect if driven at the speed that the Diesel Patrol or Landcrusier could obtain intown it would be very close on fuel consumpsion.

You need to be very sure of your facts when debating an issue & indeed multiple independant sources will be required to defend many of these myths.....

Then some don't like big cars & thats the real reason that they attack them. I can understand when I'm in my work car (Mitshubishi Lancer) & a 4WD pulls up beside me, I can't even see over the bonnet, but I can read what tyre size & brand then have on!

Cheers
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