Modifications & Licencing - I'll put this out there...

Submitted: Friday, Jul 24, 2009 at 14:34
ThreadID: 70938 Views:5339 Replies:7 FollowUps:6
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The saying we can be our own worst enemy comes to mind here….The VSI 50 and associated discussion prompts me to put this out there….

If people want to continue to be able to modify 4WD vehicles, regardless of what that modification is, we need to assist in the formulation of guidelines that will enable us to do that. And you usually only get a seat at those discussions when you can bring more to it than just ‘this is our right’ as distinct from ‘we have answers and solutions’.

It is all well and good to focus on the Minister calling us ‘hoons’ (surely we aren’t that precious to let it affect us that much), but that won’t resolve this or other issues relating to 4WD vehicles used for recreation purposes.

Let’s face it, it doesn’t matter whether 1 or 100 lifted 4WD vehicles have been involved in a fatality, the tide of public opinion is against us, regardless of how unjust we feel that opinion is.

Okay, so it might not be a popular view in a 4WD forum to suggest that maybe it isn’t a bad thing that there is a set of standards that should govern modifications, even driver standards. And maybe, many in the community have every right to question whether some of these vehicles with major lifts have a place on our suburban roads or whether those driving them have demonstrated, to a certain standard, that they can handle them.

But simply ‘mega-phoning’ about our rights from the tallest building will cut it little in the sway of public opinion; or with the politicians who make laws based on the sway of public opinion.

What has to happen is that we, as 4WD drivers, via our clubs and associations, need to assist in formulating guidelines around modifications and possibly even licensing. After all when Toyota, Nissan, or any other car manufacturer designed a four-wheel drive, they did it to a standard that has been tested and proven to be of an acceptable safety standard.

If we are going to argue our ‘right’ to modify and drive these vehicles on the road, we will need to assure the general population that there is a standard to which they have been tested following modification and, importantly, that those driving them are competent to do so. This may even mean that some modifications simply won’t cut it for general road use.

But until there is a willingness to go down this path the ‘rights’ of recreational four-wheel driving will continued to be eroded away….

And it is good to see Four-Wheel Drive NSW & ACT taking an active role in this current issue regarding suspension modifications…but the issue is bigger than this single issue.

The ball is firmly in our court……. So what are the answers and solutions?

Hopefully some food for thought!
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Reply By: Hairy (NT) - Friday, Jul 24, 2009 at 14:55

Friday, Jul 24, 2009 at 14:55
Gday,
What you say is true.....and quite logical.
But I'm not that confident that the new laws will be though?
I f the laws were to say something like...
Vehicles need an inspection by a mechanic after any suspension mods ( just like a $20 rego check or something)
Or
Anything over 100mm needs inspecting by and engineer ( at minimal cost) if not installed by a recognised suspension mob....
People probably wouldn't mind and it would get rid of some of these ridiculous lifts you see.
But the problem I see is, these type of laws are usually made by a bureaucrat with no idea and just becomes another revenue raiser.

Like you say though....no point bitching unless you have a solution.
Good luck

Cheers
AnswerID: 376002

Follow Up By: Rob! - Friday, Jul 24, 2009 at 16:01

Friday, Jul 24, 2009 at 16:01
Hairy,

I think what landy is saying, is that rather than craying about how we are being screwed we should get of our butts and contribute in the debate. (When the debate is active and not after the event)

These 50mm lift laws have been in the wings for about two years now and there WAS an opportunity to join in the forming of these laws.

I think the biggest issue is that although we like to be heard we...
1. have little to say,
2. prefer to do nothing
3. and like to play the victim.

R.
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FollowupID: 643386

Reply By: ben_gv3 - Friday, Jul 24, 2009 at 16:16

Friday, Jul 24, 2009 at 16:16
It sounds to me the Association involvement in the drafting of the NCOP was going along the lines of what you are suggesting. The NCOP limit of 50mm increase w/o engineers cert was very reasonable and to me should be OK for the majority of all 4WD design limits.

Maybe because it was taking so long that pollies were getting fed up????
AnswerID: 376009

Reply By: OzTroopy - Friday, Jul 24, 2009 at 17:52

Friday, Jul 24, 2009 at 17:52
Stoopid EO early logout / lose all your typing reply system .. bahhhh ... LOL

Initially .... there are only two questions to be asked of the VSI 50.

1/. Why did the previous rules with a requirement for approval / testing / certification of "modifications" fail ... If they did at all ?

2/. Apart from making suspension "adjustments" of up to 50mm into "major modifications" ... will VSI 50 make any difference in regard to illegally modified vehicles.
AnswerID: 376020

Follow Up By: The Landy - Friday, Jul 24, 2009 at 18:31

Friday, Jul 24, 2009 at 18:31
There are a couple of threads on VSI50... and I'm not sure I can add further than comments already made, so I won't.

But I'll pose another important question, where did we (4WDers') fail in not gaining a place at the table to help formulate a framework for 4WD suspension modifications?

It is pointless being re-active once the horse has bolted and yelping about the unfairness of it all, so I ask the question...how do we ensure that we gain representation in the future? ...I think the answer lies in ensuring we bring solutions, not complaints and that we are pro-active in demonstrating we are a responsible group, with responsible policies that safe-guard our interests whilst acknowedging there are other stakeholders with differing considerations.

Remember the die has been cast; like it or not this Government Minister has brought in a set of regulations, which may see some tweaking, but the intent won't change, and apart from affected parties there is no outcry from the broader community, in fact possibly applause.

Minority Groups and other interested parties will pick up on this, and unless we lobby the Government with 'sensible' policies and solutions on recreational four-wheel driving then your 'right's as a 4WDer will be eroded further....

Time wasted whinging about the erosion of our rights is simply time lost....Fiddling while Rome burns is a phrase that comes to mind....


Cheers





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Follow Up By: OzTroopy - Friday, Jul 24, 2009 at 18:49

Friday, Jul 24, 2009 at 18:49
heh heh ... perhaps the cry of "et tu, brute" ringing from the halls of NSW parliament - comes to my mind Landy .....

Personally I have never seen a need to be concerned about suspension rules in NSW prior to this time.

They had it right ... just didnt enforce it.
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Reply By: viz - Friday, Jul 24, 2009 at 20:08

Friday, Jul 24, 2009 at 20:08
"Either you are part of the problem, or you are part of the solution..."

That old saw - and as apt now as it was when it was first invented. Good thinking Landy, and not before time. I am with you here.

Was talking to a suspension supplier this afternoon and he was saying the industry is in an uproar, phones going off the hook and everything. Apparently the minister in question is having a bad day, if not a bad week...

viz
AnswerID: 376045

Reply By: OzTroopy - Friday, Jul 24, 2009 at 20:34

Friday, Jul 24, 2009 at 20:34
aahaaa ... found a bit of my original still on a txt format.

In response to your comments Landy .... and just my opinion obviously ......

"right to modify a 4wd" ....... most of us haven't been modifying a 4wd ... simply tweaking (adjusting) to its best performance level with out needing vehicle structural changes. Anyone legally "modifying" had approvals and tests and certificates to deal with. We will only become "modifiers" due to the very public wording of the NSW Roads Minister and as of the 01/08/09 ...... if VSI 50 is allowed to go ahead unchallenged.

The "hoon" terminology is very pertinent ... as only "hoons" modify vehicles according to the Roads Minister. Therefore, whereas in the past the "others" were the "hoons"in the public eye - we will now be both "modifiers" and "hoons" as of the 01/08/09 ...... if VSI 50 is allowed to go ahead unchallenged.

"Tide of public opinion" .... Perhaps more of a tsunami on the way than a tide ? ... If the only vehicles seen on the road are 50mm "modified", "hoon" vehicles where will the public direct their false based thoughts and rants - where else but towards those govt labeled "hoons" and "modifiers" as of the 01/08/09 ...... if VSI 50 is allowed to go ahead unchallenged.

" Formulating guidelines " ... This has been happening in regard to NCOP VSB 14 ... Inputs from all sorts of relevant groups and the result looking like being very similiar to the NSW rules which will no longer be in effect as of the 01/08/09 ...... if VSI 50 is allowed to go ahead unchallenged.

" general population assurance " ... Most of them will probably be most upset to find that testing has proved a new Hilux ute to be more stable than a new Commodore wagon ... details like that tho will be irrelevant ...... if VSI 50 is allowed to go ahead unchallenged.

" our ‘right’ to modify and drive these vehicles " ... Your using the terminology already ... Bolton / Boltoff suspension "adjustments" of up to 50mm are no more taxing on an individuals mechanical abilities, than tightening the towhitch and d-shackles properly on a camper trailer.....As an RTA source informed me, its able to be done by any trained monkey ... heh heh ... not sure whether I want to be a hoon or a monkey yet ... LOL

" The ball is firmly in our court……. So what are the answers and solutions? " ... An initial answer is to ensure that as much opposition to VSI 50 in its current, presented format is lodged as soon as possible. As stated in my thread .... the opposition needs to be factual and realistic ... " I wanna have 40" tyres " may be factual but it is not realistic.. Anybody who wants to hang 10" bigger tyres, on bigger rims, off just adequate, factory wheel bearings/axles needs some serious implanting of mechanical knowledge - if they expect to share public roads.

Myself ... I just want to be assured of being able to get a pair of shockies freighted out to me in the boonies to replace the ones, constantly wearing out on western NSW rural roads - at a 3 to 1 ratio, compared to some motorway driving rule maker. I want to be able to do this without incurring additional travel, accomodation, inspection, approval and lost work costs - after fitting them .... making the total price of a pair of shockies not worth the hassle to replace.

Not against your comments ... just highlighting some points.
AnswerID: 376057

Follow Up By: The Landy - Friday, Jul 24, 2009 at 22:06

Friday, Jul 24, 2009 at 22:06
OzTroopy

All points noted, but with all due respect you fail to grasp the essence of my point. Why do you think this is happening; the Minister didn't wake up with a bee in his bonnet, someone, probably many, are in his ear about this! Where was our representation?

This Minister has proclaimed a ruling; you won't even be able to hear the din of your diesel engine over the applause from the noise of the clapping from the general community on this one....

Stop and ask yourself why Harold Scrubby, yes the guy we all love to loathe and despise, is so succesful in getting the attention he does on a single platform of ban all four wheel drives... He lobbies goverment and presents a view....often unchallenged by the 4WD community.

Unless the 4WD community can come up with a credible voice that can articulate good policy and solutions to the concerns that the broader community raises with respect to 4WD vehicles you'll see more of these policies come into effect...and the Harold Scrubbies of the world will be in the ear of the government presenting their view. In the meantime all we do is complain and be re-active.....

The art of politics hasn't changed in thousand's of years....fight it and loose work with it and survive!





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Follow Up By: OzTroopy - Friday, Jul 24, 2009 at 22:56

Friday, Jul 24, 2009 at 22:56
I thought our representation was working hard ensuring that NCOP guidelines were fair and workable enough to be adopted by the states.
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Reply By: Robin Miller - Friday, Jul 24, 2009 at 21:32

Friday, Jul 24, 2009 at 21:32
Hi Landy

I support and will be involved in an educated and reasonable fact based response to this attack.

However, its not enough.

A long history of engineering solutions has imbedded in me the lesson that to win you need a more complete multi-pronged approach that goes beyond the bounds encompassed by the problem.

You need to understand your enemy , realise things may not go your way , and be able to respond in depth to all possible outcomes.

The following is an illustration and guide - figures are not verified or needed to be.

I like to refer to it as the Carrot, Plum pudding and Stick approach.

In this case you take the moral high ground and sensibly argue your case and motivate all you can.

At the same time you need to make it plainly clear, that you will be forced to not get your modern (softer) 4wd, a 314 series cruiser and instead get an 80 series diesel which you give you back some of the ground clearance & departure angles etc you will loose under the new legislation.

Its an unfortunate side effect that the old car will legally pollute approximately 10 times as much as the car the legislation has forced you to abandon.

The plum pudding is for you, no one else.

Realize that the majority will do nothing and that an unsatisfactory outcome
will most likely result, so you need engineer a personal win.

If you, with just one car aquistion, decide to get the 80 series over the 314 series. Then you will not have to pay around $2000 in stamp duty, and that the government will be deprived of it.

This is not to upset the government, because an individual action will go un-noticed.

Its for you, and some of the money can be used to engineer a partial solution to the lift problem.

This solution will be to smooth out and protect the cars underside so that it can be a better slider, and to use chains more regularly to overcome the sliding friction.

REMEMBER - It may not be optimum , but whatever they do, there is ALWAYS a work around.





AnswerID: 376064

Follow Up By: The Landy - Friday, Jul 24, 2009 at 22:24

Friday, Jul 24, 2009 at 22:24
LOL..
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Reply By: The Landy - Monday, Jul 27, 2009 at 09:29

Monday, Jul 27, 2009 at 09:29
Following is a link to a comment on the VSI50 and taken from the ANFWDC website, the peak body that represents many four-wheel drive clubs.

ANFWDC - Modified Vehicles

I’ll focus on the comment…. “It appears to be an arbitrary imposition of limits to modifications which we suspect is as the result of single issue pressure group views being taken as fact that modified vehicles are not safe”.

I am not going to criticise the work of this or other peak bodies in their dealings with the government, but simply highlight, that if true, a single interest group has lobbied the government successfully. It could be Harold Scrubby, or anyone for that matter, and it is almost irrelevant who, but do we need to take a leaf out of their book on how to lobby governments?

If there is a dialogue, between the ANFWDC or other intererst groups and our government representatives why wasn’t it successful in this instance in having the view of the four-wheel drive community expressed to the point of demonstrating that VSI50 is not necessarily good policy? It almost looks like we’ve been caught napping on this one.

This is a far more important question to ask rather than bemoaning this one single issue; take a look at the big picture before these ‘single interest groups’ run as all over!

This will be be thin edge of the wedge unless there is more effective communication at Senior Government levels.

Concerned!


AnswerID: 376383

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