Trio Found

I agree Ian - The line must not be drawn.

We all come from different backgrounds, do different things - but when a man is down, he must be picked up...it is our responsibility as civilised human beings.

Alan.

Agree. See below if there's nothing on the telly.

olcoolone,

A wonderful troll from an avid Today Tonight viewer. Since we know nothing about the circumstances, judging them seems a little churlish.

With similar suggestions being made by media after the lost bushwalker emerged from the Blue Mtns, it's probably best to put the "we find you, you pay" thought where it should be - dead and buried.

In my view, the "we find you, you pay" thought is one of the most ludicrous and tabloid responses I've heard in a while.

The primary reason is that it exacerbates an already dangerous situation. If someone who is lost and bewildered is also concerned about having to pay for their rescue, then they are going to make decisions based on avoiding or mitigating that cost. This will likely involve making increasingly reckless attempts to self-recover, when they would be better off staying put.
They will also not want to raise the alarm for fear of being charged.
Then, when help arrives, they may actually avoid being rescued in the hope of avoiding paying. It happens already, especially sea rescues where the salvage rules are a little interesting.

Not exactly a picture of success for our tourist industry or rescue services.

It is frustrating to us who are oh-so-clever, but the marginal cost of these resources being directed to rescue someone (as opposed to being idle / training) is negligible.

Education and awareness of EPIRB schemes etc, as the lost bushwalker has promised to support, are the way forward.

Personally, I always have a phone and EPIRB, even if going for a day trip. Aren't I all clever and self-righteous? But that's me and it doesn't mean I won't fall down a ravine and be unable to use them and require rescue. Should I then have to pay? How much?

I should probably be on Today Tonight tutting like a fish-wife.

I sort of agree but don't in full.

Why is it the only people who need rescuing are the ones who are not prepared.

Obviously it seems they broke the golden rule of not telling someone where they were going and how long they would be away for if it took 36 hours to find them.

I'm with Blaze on this one.

People know what they should or shouldn't do and a lot take the option of "I know but it will not happen to me" approach or "someone else will help"attitude.

Sure we may become stuck either by accident or stupidity one day but we are prepared as you are with Hf radio, sat phone, UHF radio and PLB with GPS and a good knowledge.

We have rescued people who should of known better including a NSW park ranger who had his Camry and poptop stuck for 16 hours in a mud bottom flood way 200K from Broken Hill on a road thats not used much...no radio, food and little water....two kid and a wife.

This is not an isolated story we here it a lot from other travelers who have to help someone.

Sure we don't know the full story and I might be wrong of what happened to these three guys but I have a good idea.

I have no issues with people needing to be rescued but when the don't offer no help then selves I have very little time for them.

I can not praise the work of search and rescue people enough and this is why we support them financially, it's something I could not do myself as I would end up lecturing the people I helped rescue.

I agree education is the only way but even then some people don't want to listen or think they know better.

I think a user pay system would be great, here in SA we have to pay for our emergency services through a levy and insurance whether we use them or not and I have no problems if I have to pay for my own rescue.

You might think you're clever because you've got a phone and an EPIRB, but that won't avoid you having to be rescued. In fact, they are only good for initiating a rescue (and reduce the search area/time) - that's the whole purpose of them (a phone or EPIRB really can't help you much by themselves!).

In most situations (not all I admit), being well prepared to get yourself out (ie. full kit of god recovery gear) will avoid a rescue, and the EPIRB can stay in the packet.

A sat phone can avoid being rescued, if we tell someone we are going to be at a certain point at a certain time and date and we don't turn up at least we can phone them and tell them instead of them sending out a search party.

Most of the people we travel with haver sat phones.

"In most situations (not all I admit), being well prepared to get yourself out (ie. full kit of god recovery gear) will avoid a rescue, and the EPIRB can stay in the packet."

You have to know how to use it to.

Being sensible and making sure others with you know what to do helps.

The number of people travelling in remote areas who don't even have a UHF radio or navigation gear is astounding.

Unfortanatly a lot of people don't think the same way as we do!

We passed a couple in there late 60's on a 3 hour rocky and hilly walking trail at 9.00am in the morning with the temperature starting to nudge 32deg. as we were heading back to the car park, we were 10 minutes away from the car park when we passed them...we stopped and made a comment to the about carrying water, we had about 6lts between two of use and the had 1lt. There comment was thanks for the concern but we should be fine...now that is stupidity.

Good points olcoolone - I'm certainly not advocating travelling without a sat phone, just that we should have other equipment that we can try before calling for outside help.

"You have to know how to use it to. " Sorry, I thought that was a given, but you're right, we do have to specify that too for some!

I know what you mean about hikes, preparedness applies to much more than just a drive in a remote National Park... I've passed people on similar hikes, similar temps and they carry no water and wear footwear only suitable for a clean beach. The irony is, it makes me feel like I'm overdoing it by carrying sufficient water and a handheld UHF radio, wearing hiking boots & full-brimmed hat, etc. I agree it's stupid, but some people do seem able to 'survive' somehow on a long hike without any water.

Some people value there life and the lives of loved ones and friends very cheaply.

It's like people who cross a road at a pedestrian crossing where the vehicles have to give way, I've seen some pedestrians walk straight out in front of a vehicle and then curse the driver for not giving way to them...sure the driver was at fault but the pedestrian has a duty of care as well...don't they think that if the did get hit the may be badly injured or killed.

Suppose they can at least blame the driver for their stupidity.

I put the value of my life and the lives around me as something money can't buy.

You do it properly or not at all.

Gents,

Well thought out points. I should probably point out my EPIRB is a SPOT, which means that I have three levels of alert, including the OK alert. So if my whim means I decide to have a snoop around in the bush, I drop a note to mates about rough area, then provide OK plips at regular intervals to provide a regular last-know-safe fix.

But enough of my imperfection, now to "punters."

I remain strongly opposed to get-lost-you-pay scenarios for the reasons I and also others (in opposition) mentioned above.

As you all describe, any number of scenarios can render even the most prepared trip in trouble. This trouble can be mitigated, but never elminated by experience, preparation and kit. However, ropes break, sat phones stuff up, clouds cover the stars, water rises etc. However, putting the cost onus of recovery on the punter, whilst giving a delicious feeling of Today Tonight social retribution, is counter-productive as I outlined above.

So to bring the collective comments above to a head - how much should one pay for being rescued? What are the levels and criteria?

This is slightly rhetorical in many ways.

The more sensible idea (only by comparison as I think this is deeply flawed) is to have an outback rescue insurance, a bit like the Carte Neige used for skiers in Europe.

This is a simple optional insurance for any snow-user that waives all rescue costs off the mountain - then it's your gig. They won't leave you down a crevasse, but it makes it much simpler as they won't sequester your assets (like your car, skis, etc.) to pay for the recovery.

The difficulty here is that the cover is for a specific activity in a limited area. And to what end? The reason for its introduction was the onerous cost of expensive rescue on a small, seasonal local community. The need was often exacerbated by those who take the law and sensible preparation as "guidelines".

In Australia, the scenario is much, much different. The cost onus is already there as part of the wider infrastructure partially supported by the government. The spaces are wider and quite frankly the infrastructure costs incredible.

The clear and (IMO) sensible course is to educate and enforce fall-back safety (mandatory off-tarmac EPIRB) - the rest is subjective.

Hindsight is a wonderful thing and the I'm sure the ranger you retrieved will never make that mistake again. Yet it was a mistake. He wasn't trying to be stupid and with no further info on your one-line report can only assume that misfortune rather than malice or idiocy.

Finally, an insight from a friend who worked at RAF Culdrose flying SAR Sea King "cabs" Bear in mind that they have SAR responsibility for one of the busiest shipping lanes in the UK, numerous moors, coastal paths, sailing areas, military training etc.

I asked him what the feeling was about picking some dolt up who was poorly prepared. His response? Who cares. Much more fun and interesting than chasing flares on exercise.

Then asked should they be charged? Never - what kind of country do you think this is - that's what the pirates did - offer rescue for a charge. A lure for bounty-hunting scavengers. At worst the pirates would get the spoils of the wreck... A bit like the Tow-truck scams.

His view on lecturing the ill-prepared - they know they've messed up. We give them a quiet chat and take lots of pictures to educate others. They also never have to buy a round after a live op.

I think it would;d be a good idea to have insurance, some of the places we travel to would have a recovery bill of $5000+ for the vehicle alone.

My bugbear is the resources needed to find someone, the Star Force would of driven from Adelaide that would of taken them 3+ hours, then there is the time to organise the local SES or CFS for a ground search and maybe an ambulance or two on stand by and not forgetting the local Police and anyone else involved.

Meanwhile someone has an accident, heart attack or assault who needs these people quickly and guess what...no police available and the ambulance is 1 hour away as the one in the local area is tied to the search and they have to call one from another country area....the person having the heart attack dies.

That person having the heart attack could be me or a close friend.

It's happened before.

Now if it was you or me who got stuck in 4x4 we could get help and they would know where we are...maybe a helicopter or a 4x4 with a couple of people could come and rescue us in couple of hours...not a whole army taking days.

It has also been known to send a local farmer to the scene first to see if they can help.




By the way the ranger we pulled out of the bog found it quite funny and said to us that he has done it many a times to others, he had seen the mud but he thought by taking a run up he might be able to get through.

When we pulled up we were listening to farmers close by checking fences and water,guess what they had no UHF...but he knew what it was.

Appreciate your point about resources, and my knowledge of Australia-specific SAR techniques is not extensive in this area, so I stand ready to be corrected, however:

Your described heart-attack scenario smacks of sensationalist possibilities, ifs, buts and maybes. Today Tonight in short. Delivering such emotive possibilities muddies the discussion and doesn't reflect my knowledge of incident response.

Police have a civic duty of care to the public. In such situations they should be the default incident co-ordination. STAR was set up as a specialist unit by SA Police almost 30 years ago. Amongst its specific remits is SAR. If they're not rescuing someone, they're training for it. They are a 24/7 unit for many scenarios specifically including this one. They are not beat cops. If no-one gets lost, we (or specifically SA residents) still pay for them.

The SES also has a specific SAR remit. They are set up, maintained and supported for this specific purpose. CFS does not have this specifically in its remit, but does provide support and is often intrinsically linked in many locales.

I'm not sure what incident co-ordinator with the limited paramedic resources you describe would direct front-line ambulances to anywhere, specific or general, on a hunch. That's tabloid talk. SES would handle first-aid and possibly paramedic, with approriate resources directed as required on locating the subjects. Find the buggers, then direct the medical resource (or black van), ideally aerial and surplus to op reqs, otherwise they're chasing shadows. Maybe Oz protocol is different.

Farmers are a useful, but unreliable (due to their work, not their attitude!) resource and are usually ill-equipped to deal with anything more than a bogged truck. If someone is lost, any scenario is possible.

Now to this example - these blokes are in the middle of a *270,000 ha* park. Now I don't know it specifically, but even if they did tell someone that was their destination, then it's a bloody big area to sweep.

So you're in the middle of a 270,000 ha park and you've got a UHF with its very limited range. Maybe there will be someone, maybe there won't. Likely not.

Hell even if I pinged my SPOT for full emergency, I wouldn't expect assistance for at best 3 hours in such a location, even by air. Even then, they don't know if I'm simply bogged (in which case myself I'd use the less urgent help feature) or injured. An "army" is coming, like it or not. I kid you not - mainly because it's a live job not an exercise and they all want to play and find you!

So to insurance. Well, one can argue for insurance, but it tends to actually cause more problems than it solves. It costs to administer and drives utility prices up as well as a two-tier expectation. As I mentioned before, the costs and criteria attributed to a rescuee is very, very subjective and I note you've avoided that critical point. I think it would be unworkable or cost more to implement than it saves. Actually - that makes it a perfect Govt initiative!

So back to my points:
I don't consider it practical, for "punters" to specifically insure against this, over and above that offered by their normal motor insurance, for normal gazetted roads. Can you put a price on a recovery - and which do and don't pay?

I think that the use / hire / free provision and need for effective emergency comms - EPIRB, SPOT, Satphone should be more widely informed - educate.

If the great unwashed are put off by from enjoying our country by the inevitability of some getting stuck and having to remortgage their house to pay, then I feel we've lost the spirit of Exploroz and leaving home at all.

Bonus thought - considering Exploroz's enormous influence on local and international 4WDers, perhaps a specific "Basics" section could / should be highlighted on the home page, so we are doing our bit for this cause. I hope this isn't buried too deep to be noted!

I don't think you under stand the limited resources we have in SA and other parts of Australia.

In an ideal world it would be nice to think someone is just sitting around doing nothing waiting for a call, in the real world it's different.

On a good night we are lucky to have a dozen police cars patrolling Adelaide and metro areas and thats no joke.

Resources are stretched here at times.

In Australia we do not have a specific SAR operation and if you are comparing Australia with the UK think again.

I do understand your resource concern, but I didn't get off the last boat. I have a good understanding of resources provided. I also have no need to think again my UK-AU comparisons as they are situation, not location based.

Those beat police (I use this as a simple descriptive, not any disrespect) in Adelaide are not going to fang their cars out of town to Ngarkat for a rescue unless something stupendously big occurs. The STAR boys (and the local plod) will get a plip and be rubbing their hands in overtime glee. And good on them, I say.

If people didn't get in trouble, for whatever reason, then there would be no need for SES. Unlikely, but hey.

You're also incorrect in that Australia *does* have a specific (and f'ing excellent) SAR operation. To deny it is a great disservice to the incredible infrastructure I referred to previously. You can tell them yourself if you think it's rubbish. I think they're great. You may not. AMSA

Don't be confused by my reference to UK SAR procedure. It's what I know and consider excellent practice. I believe it is very close / identical to Australia's but I am humble in my assertions about protocol as I don't have current knowledge (any more).

You still haven't articulated who, how much and why should be stumped up for any rescue in your Today Tonight universe...

We'll get onto insurance when you do. ;)

What every you think!

If you like the UK so much....return.

Where did I say I like the UK so much? Nice try on a strawman argument. Or troll as it's known.

So you can't tell us how your wonderful system would work then. Because you haven't thought it through - merely watched a tabloid TV programme.

You can only resort to childish truculence. I'm sad for you and hope you grow up to be a more intelligent individual.

OK you two you've had your say, now I think its time to cool down and take five eh?

Steady there Roachie. I drive a black pajero too. You should know that when you drive a black pajero you can only get stiuck in the best possible places :-)))

The sand had prolly been all dug up by a Chev-Nissan boaring through there earlier....hahahahaha

Roachie Roachie, They were probably out there recovering a Nissan, then after getting the Nissan owner recovered he probably just drove off, probably with the Mitsi owners snatch strap LOLOLOL

Sorry Paul, no offence meant to any EO member/s who may own a black Paj....

Blaze.... you're prolly right there mate; damned Missan owners....ya just can't trust any of em..... mongrels- ----- all of em!!!!! ;-)

Paul,

Can't agree with you there mate. Dam Chevissan couldn't spin its wheels in the wet sand down there, more likely your Paj would tear up the sand a lot more than that Massey Fergison powered nissan of Roachies, Oops is it a Chev, I thought it sounded like Massey/F Tractor when i heard it last.

And they probably had the white lettering on the tyres on the outside ! :-))

Simple, Rocco. We in SA are simple people. 36 hours is a long time, so we prefer to break it up into bite size bits, so 12 hours per day is quite enough, thanks.
Surely that's clear? I seem to remember some ancient Ozzies arguing for an 8 hour day, so 12 is pretty modest really.

You know, I reckon those South Aussie's are onto something with a 12 hour day!

My boss seems to think I like working a third of a day!

So if I live just near the WA, NT or Vic border I can work a third of a day in SA = 4 hours and then have 20 hours off in another state!

Bloody clever those South Aussies!

Geoff

You make a good point linking this rescue with the closure of some tracks. The Simpson in summer & Mt Skene over winter are 2 recent cases where areas have been closed as a direct result of people going out not fully prepared & requiring rescue. Unfortunately liability then dictates the land manager must put some sort of restrictions in place.
It's pretty much irrelivant whether it was too much air in the tyres, inexperience or some mechanical issue, as once their is a history of people getting caught, injured or dieing then the end result is more often the same. (Lock it up)
Cheers Craig............

I think some people feel better if they can blame someone or something else for their mistakes and stupidity.

People have to learn to take rsponsability of their actions.

Can't agree more Blaze.