URGENT ADVICE ON NISSAN PATROL TD 3.0L AUTO OVERHEATING WHILE TOWING CARAVAN ONL

Submitted: Friday, Jul 31, 2009 at 08:09
ThreadID: 71101 Views:20579 Replies:12 FollowUps:9
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Hi All,

Need some urgent advice on what may be causing major overheating to friends 2002 TD Nissan Patrol 3.0L Auto that is travelling with us??? It ONLY overheats when towing van....they have driven without van and no problems.

They have had some major repairs done in Cairns just this week to rectify but still prob not sorted. Had intercooler replaced at one place for $1000 and then had reflush of cooling system at another place for $400 and still not fixed. They think they have been rorted and need some honest advice from anyone that has had this problem with this model and knows how to fix it????

They also have travelled over 13000kms from Perth to here and havent selected the overdrive at all as they were told not to when towing a van etc not sure if this is why or not but thought it may be useful for feedback....

PLEASE HELP IF YOU CAN
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Reply By: Geoff (Newcastle, NSW) - Friday, Jul 31, 2009 at 08:19

Friday, Jul 31, 2009 at 08:19
Does it have a viscous coupling on the fan?

If so, does the coupling have any silicone oil left in it?

Geoff

Geoff,

Grey hair is hereditary, you get it from children. Baldness is caused by watching the Wallabies.

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AnswerID: 376914

Reply By: Robert HL (SEQ)(aka zuksctr) - Friday, Jul 31, 2009 at 08:49

Friday, Jul 31, 2009 at 08:49
G;day just goin,have they fitted oil cooler for the gear box,as far as i aunderstand most i not all ato's need this to keep it from over heating .
I may be correctedhere if i am wrong.


Cheers,

Bob.
AnswerID: 376917

Reply By: Wizard1 - Friday, Jul 31, 2009 at 09:15

Friday, Jul 31, 2009 at 09:15
Is it an auto or manual? An auto will always run hotter because the transmission is also trying to use the same system as the engine to cool down. If it is an auto, as suggested, they need to fit a transmission oil cooler.

Mind you they do have a GUII time bomb, so it is only a matter of time until the engine goes pear shaped.
AnswerID: 376929

Reply By: Member - Mick O (VIC) - Friday, Jul 31, 2009 at 10:26

Friday, Jul 31, 2009 at 10:26
Post this message to the PATROL 4x4 forum.

Cheers Mick
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trip would doubtless be attended with much hardship.''
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AnswerID: 376950

Reply By: Member - Graham H (QLD) - Friday, Jul 31, 2009 at 10:40

Friday, Jul 31, 2009 at 10:40
How heavy is the van

Maybe too heavy for the vehicle.

Will certainly cause it to heat up.
AnswerID: 376956

Reply By: Michael ( Moss Vale NSW) - Friday, Jul 31, 2009 at 13:17

Friday, Jul 31, 2009 at 13:17
Intercooler replaced!! I wonder whose idea that was.. You had better tell us who the repair guys are so we dont go there! That would be the last thing i would replace..... Michael
AnswerID: 376983

Follow Up By: Leroy - Friday, Jul 31, 2009 at 14:43

Friday, Jul 31, 2009 at 14:43
I was thinking the same. Price should of been closer to $600 as well.

Leroy
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FollowupID: 644387

Follow Up By: redeye141 - Friday, Jul 31, 2009 at 16:24

Friday, Jul 31, 2009 at 16:24
Leroy The price of the genuine inter-cooler went from $600 to $1500 last year.

I purchased a reconditioned one as it is another item that was poorly designed.

The only part I have not replaced on my Nissan 3litre is the number plates

Redeye.
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FollowupID: 644392

Follow Up By: Member - AJB (VIC) - Friday, Jul 31, 2009 at 23:20

Friday, Jul 31, 2009 at 23:20
New Intercooler from Nissan = $950. You can haggle and get it to about $800 or you can haggle harder and get it for freeeee! (It helps if you are a constant parts customer with Nissan)
Number plates will be replaced within the next month!
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FollowupID: 644452

Follow Up By: Leroy - Sunday, Aug 02, 2009 at 08:42

Sunday, Aug 02, 2009 at 08:42
I put my BIL onto AWILL4x4 and he reco's them to better than new. Welded tanks, not crimped for example.

Cheers,
Leroy
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FollowupID: 644549

Reply By: kevanancy - Friday, Jul 31, 2009 at 14:18

Friday, Jul 31, 2009 at 14:18
Do they have overdrive switched off ? I have read somewhere they run a lot hotter if towing in overdrive .
AnswerID: 376996

Reply By: patrolmann - Friday, Jul 31, 2009 at 15:53

Friday, Jul 31, 2009 at 15:53
Hi Just Going,
I had a similar problem with my GQ
I spent a fortune on radiator, thermostat, dyno tuning, another headvy duty 3 bar radiator, etc to no avail.
Ended up being the Viscious fan hub. Could not get a genuine one so i spent $240.00 on an after market one and it did not change a thing.
Then I finally found a guy who said the after market ones are no and he showed me what it should be doing on another car and what the after market one was doing on mine.
I laid out another $477.00 for a genuine part and it fixed the problem.
I also was advised it will help to put a 3" mandrel bent semi stainless exhaust right from the dump pip to the back end to let the hot gases get out quicker and also give better grunt down low. Best thing I ever did for towing.
Did both and it has never given me any greif since.
Cheers
Patrolman 2.8td
AnswerID: 377008

Follow Up By: dbish - Friday, Jul 31, 2009 at 18:00

Friday, Jul 31, 2009 at 18:00
Try having the radiator removed dismantle @cleaned internaly by a radiator repair place. Flushing will not clean out a partly blocked radiator.
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FollowupID: 644401

Reply By: Flywest - Friday, Jul 31, 2009 at 19:30

Friday, Jul 31, 2009 at 19:30
Sounds to me like shes about to grenade, for the same reason all the others before it have.

Look, the advice above about cooling the transmission oil are all valid and they should pursue those avenues because it will help, however given it is the notorious hand grenade model 3 liter Nissan (yeah they explode when the firing pin falls out) I suspect something far more sinister.

Those engines are computer controlled.

They have an oxygen sensor on them that measures the amount of O2 in the burn as each cylinder fires.

The computer uses this info to contol the fuel delivery, only a certain amount of fuel is needed for certain oxygen content - any more fuel and your just over fueling the engine.

Now - O2 levels in the intake air vary depending on ambient air temp, altitude (if you've climbed a mountain range for example) and how moist the air is.

Where theres LESS O2 the engines computer will lean off the fuel supply.

When it does this the temp of the explosion get a LOT hotter.

The problem with the grenade 3 liter is this.

The thin metal tube that leads to the O2 sensor that's then wired to the controlling computer, gets carbon deposits inside the thin metal tube over time and these block it up.

The computer reads this lack of oxygen as high altitude etc - low oxygen and starts leaning the fuel - leading to increased combustion temps.

Eventually the more blocked this little tube gets the more the computer leans the fuel until it gets to a point where the excessive temps burn holes in the top of the alloy piston/s and the grenade goes off & its goodnight Irene for yet another Nissan hand grenade 3 liter bomb.

The silly thing?

1. The O2 sensors are cheap to replace.

2. If you can get to them to remove them the tube can be cleaned out easily with a little wire pipe cleaner, and some alcohol - sensor as good as new and away you go again!

That such a simple small cheap part can totally destroy an entire engine in one big bang at the most inopportune time - is a big worry that Nisan are totally ignoring they won't honor their warranty's for this defect.

The problem is that the computer doesn't KNOW that its being fed false info from the O2 sensor and keeps leaning out the fuel based on wrong info leading to ever increasing combustion temps.

Obviously it isn't the brightest of computers, capable of thinking for itself!

If it were me - I'd get that sucker O2 sensor out and cleaned replaced pronto before she goes bang.

I'd make doubly sure the whole cooling system is 100% (new radiator and water pump - leave nothing to chance) - then fit oil cooler to the transmission oil line.

Lastly put a EGT probe into the exhaust pipe just post turbo with a gauge inside the cab - to monitor exhaust gas temps and don't run that sucker anywhere over 450c (550 max for brief burst climbing a hill for example).
If you see 650C then kiss that engine good bye.

While at it - whack a temp sensor into the auto transmission pan and keep an eye on transmission oil temps.



That chart will show you what temps he needs top keep his trans oil down too.

(In the temps chart above at the bottom where it says "above 300 clutches and seals etc melt and burn...and so on - I forgot to convert that 300 to degrees Celsius it's actually 300 Fahrenheit (so the major irreversible damage REALLY starts at 149 Celcius not 300 as it says) Remember that water boils at 100 C - your radiator under pressure will boil at 120 and another 30 over that the transmissions toast!).

Now you can see the importance of keeping the transmission oil cool here in Australia!

If its been running hot - he needs to get rid of that batch of trans oil.

Just dumping the trans oil from the pan won't cut it, it only gets rid of about half the now oxidized (burnt) transmission oil, everything that's inside the torque converter and oil cooling lines & standard trans oil cooler if fitted will still be old contaminated burnt trans oil.

He needs to disconnect the trans oil line from side of the trans, that goes to the cooler.

Connect a clear plastic hose over the coupler fitting in the side of the box and put the other end into a new 20 liter drum of trans oil.

Put a short clear hose over the disconnected line from the oil cooler and run the other end into a bucket or pan for disposal.

Put the hand brake on as hard as it will go, and chock all 4 wheels.

This is dangerous if you screw it up, so pay attention!

You need to start the vehicle in park and let it idle, do NOT rev it up, just let it sit there, then with someone sitting with their foot on the brake pedal as well as the hand brake and chocks drop it into drive and just let it idle.

The oil pump in the trans will start sucking up new clean oil from the drum - you will see this thru the clear line - at the same time the old burnt oil from trans pan, torque converter and valve bodies, oil cooler lines and trans oil cooler
- will pour out of the other short clear plastic pipe into the bucket for disposal - it should be brown and burnt.

Let it keep running until you see NEW CLEAR RED oil coming out the disposal pipe and there's no more old smelly burnt oil - clear red going in and clear red coming out!

Now put back into park and turn engine off & you have a FULL transmission oil swap/transfusion!

- disconnect plastic hoses and re connect the oil feed line to the transmission.

Now with the same precautions as above (brakes and wheel chocks) - open bonnet, start and put into drive, check trans oil dip stick -= it should be full - if not just top up with extra trans oil down the dip stick tube a little bit at a time until it is reading full when at idle in drive with the brakes on and wheels chocked, and without touching the blessed accelerator pedal lest anyone gets hurt.!

When you do connect the plastic pipes to trans oil line and nipple on trans - there's two of them , one for oil going to the radiator based oil line cooler and one that returns!l

You can tap into either for a complete transfusion like this, however it is important to get it right - you want the new oil being sucked into the trans thru the nipple and the oil returning line placing old brown burnt oil into the waste bucket not the other way round, i.e NOT to have air suckin from the waste bucket into the trans oil pump and old oil overflowing your new oil 20- liter drum and contaminating that and making a big mess.

Just look at it and think it thru wen you do your connecting of the pipes etc, and it'll make sense.

Obviously if you get it wrong and your watching the clear lines - you'll realise straight away - putting it back into park should stop the oil pump and you just swap bucket/drum and have another go,

Next.

More cooling for the trans.

You can do as I did and install a water tank into your vehicle (caravan if you wanted too) and run a hose all the way to the front of the vehicle behind the grill.

Plumb a 12 volt marine deck wash pump into the system with a switch for it on the dash in a convenient spot.

Put some garden mister sprayers (2 is enough) into the hose behind the grill and in front of the radiators, such that when the pump is activated the sprayers will cover the radiators with a fine mist of water while driving along (I used a plastic 1/2 inch garden reticulation tap in the line to turn it off so you don't siphon drain all your water when not in use/stopped, and also to regulate the flow & hence mist onto my radiators so I use the minimum amount of water to get the best coverage of the radiators while moving.

This water evaporates off the radiators outside, acting like a "coolgardie safe" which allows them to be better heat sink exchangers for getting rid of the excess engine / transmission heat build up.

Then when driving I watch that EGT gauge and when it;s getting to 450 C climbing a hill and looks like it;s going to get higher - on goes the water switch and down comes the engine temps gauge, the exhaust gas temps gauge also drops, and the air con blows colder air, and even the trans oil temps gauge drops.

Next - sub micron bypass engine oil filtering and an after market engine oil cooler fitted. This will help provide longevity for your engine BUT it will also increase the amount of oil in your sump / oil capillary capacity, allowing the after market oil cooler a chance to cool the engine oil!

Engine oil doesn't boil at 100 - 120 C like your radiator water - instead it serves as a "heat sink" for the excessive temps from your engine that your cooling system is unable to cope with, via the heat exchange system of water pump and radiator.

If that engine oils getting excessively hot - its very hard to then shed that excessive heat and via convection thru the engine block and auto transmission oil - that heat works its way into the transmission oil as well.

Its a sinister cycle that builds on itself, you just need everything going for you i.e. ALL fluids being independently cooled - not just the radiator water being responsible for shedding all the heat from other systems like engine oil and trans oil.

Once one problem (blocked O2 sensor) causing excess heat build up starts working on all the other systems (Engine oil & Trans oil temps) we have damage happening all over the shop - the engine - the transmission, and a good vehicle becomes a nightmare to try and diagnose!

That's how I tow heavy weight behind an TD automatic 4wd in 40+ AMBIENT OUTSIDE temps, and strong headwinds up steep mountain ranges without problems.



When I did mine - I pulled the trans pan sump off and put a new filter in there - no point changing all that trans oil, if the old original filter is blocked with contaminated/burnt wet clutch material, and slowing down the rate at which it circulates trans oil thru the trans oil cooler.



I also added an aftermarket alloy deep transmission pan that holds an extra 3 quarts of trans oil over the standard model..more oil takes a lot longer to get hot. It has cast alloy cooling fins in it that also help cool the trans oil while on the move.



Gauges to monitor those temps below - when normal and when HOT





Extra Water cooling

One 100 liter stainless water tank for cooling water


Another 100 liter stainless tank and marine deck wash pump to pump the water to the sprinklers (misters) behind the grill.

OK..

Now also eliminate other possible probs,

Dragging brakes on the van or dry wheel bearings on the van will cause the tow vehicle to overheat.

Summary?

1. Clean/replace the O2 sensor pronto
2. New water Pump
3. New Radiator
4. New Trans Pan filter
5. Deep Trans pan if you are so inclined.
6. After Market Trans Oil Cooler.
7. Complete Trans Oil change.
8. Gauge for EGTs monitoring
9. Gauge for Trans oil temps monitoring
10. Gauge for Turbo Boost monitoring
11. On Board Water Tank for cooling water
12. 12 V Deck wash pump switched via the dash
13. Hose and misters plumbed to the grill
14. Engine Oil bypass filtering & after market engine oil cooler
15 Eliminate any dragging brakes, or dry / needing adjustment / replacement wheel bearings on van


You should NOW be ready to go dragging heavy weights around oz with an automatic.

Its a shame manufacturers don't make a product capable of doing that without such substantial modifications before hand isn't it!

Towing with automatics in Oz should be an article or pinned/sticky topic thread - coz I must typed this kind of reply with all the photo links at least 3 or 4 times already in response to similar questions in the past.

Cheers and good luck with it!
AnswerID: 377036

Follow Up By: Muddy doe (SA) - Friday, Jul 31, 2009 at 20:33

Friday, Jul 31, 2009 at 20:33
Geez Flywest,

How many keyboards do you wear out per month???

Cheers
Muddy
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FollowupID: 644421

Follow Up By: Davo_60 - Saturday, Aug 01, 2009 at 18:38

Saturday, Aug 01, 2009 at 18:38
Goodness, such a simple fix. Nissan may not make something capable of towing but other manufacturers sure do.

Dave
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FollowupID: 644479

Follow Up By: Leroy - Sunday, Aug 02, 2009 at 08:59

Sunday, Aug 02, 2009 at 08:59
I thought overfueling lead to higher egt's not a lean fuel mix like a petrol engine.

Leroy
0
FollowupID: 644555

Follow Up By: Member - Graham H (QLD) - Sunday, Aug 02, 2009 at 11:25

Sunday, Aug 02, 2009 at 11:25
Jeez would be quicker and easier just to buy a Cruiser and have no problems.




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FollowupID: 644583

Reply By: Member - DOZER- Friday, Jul 31, 2009 at 21:13

Friday, Jul 31, 2009 at 21:13
There are quite a few issues that can break the little 3 litre.(that only milk and juice should come in) My advice is to fit a boost gauge to see if it is over boosting. I have heard that the water cooled turbo can crack and the shaft that sets the boost can sieze from water ingress and rust, hense making excess boost....especially when towing....If the gauge goes higher than 14 at a guess, have this looked at
Andrew
AnswerID: 377057

Reply By: Member - AJB (VIC) - Friday, Jul 31, 2009 at 23:25

Friday, Jul 31, 2009 at 23:25
Mine did the same after re-build. The re-builder had flushed it out but not to effectively. I took it to a radiator specialist and he stripped it, new top tank and had no problems since. He reckoned it was two thirds blocked! At the time it was fine with no load (not towing) but towing it nearly cooked itself again, actually would have so I turned around and went home. Luckily, again, I was just down the road from home.
AnswerID: 377088

Reply By: Outbacktourer - Sunday, Aug 02, 2009 at 19:59

Sunday, Aug 02, 2009 at 19:59
Some interesting reading. I have one of these, an '02 3.0Di Auto that has done it's fair share of heavy towing. I have never seen the temp gauge move beyond it's normal setting even in extreme work. I have a Pyro, a tranny temp gauge and a boost gauge fitted on a pillar pod so I have a fair idea what is going on.

IMHO the Auto (which has a factory fitted cooler standard BTW) will overheat way before the engine. I would be looking at a blockage in the cooling system or the water pump.

The trick to keeping trans temps down is to keep it locked. If you lock out O/D it will lock at 80 KPH. With O/D on it will lock at 100 KPH provided the load is not too great. With a gauge you will see a HUGE difference in temps in the trans depending on how you drive it. If you are towing something heavy, get to 80 KPH as quick as you can and stay above it. If you need to climb and need to drop back, go to 60 and pull second. You will see the difference on the tacho when lock comes in and out.

OT
AnswerID: 377294

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