Experience with an engine saver alarm - no warning for a boilover
Submitted: Tuesday, Aug 04, 2009 at 08:10
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Member - Oldplodder (QLD)
The Paj is getting a bit old, some would say like it's owner :o). Can't hold it's
water as
well as it used to.
Water going out but not coming back from the expansion bottle. So the
water saver alarm goes off each morning if you start the car without a 1/2 litre top up. Yes, I am going through the usual culprits, loose radiator hose, faulty connections on the over flow bottle feed etc. :o)
But the engine still boiled over on me and the engine saver alarm did not go off.
It happened on a 50k run down the highway, sitting on a 100 to 110 legal speed limit. Suddenly saw the temp gauge rising and it went to the top of the dial in about 5km. Pulled off at the next exit. It took about 4 litres of
water, so must have been about 6 litres left, enough circulating to keep the engine saver alarm happy.
Reason it boiled was that I had tried a new radiator cap. Obviously the wrong one . :o) Looked right though, and Repco told me it was right in their catalogue.
Topped up the
water (had been carrying 10 litres just in case) and sat on 80 km/hr all the way home and it was fine (6 psi boost instead of 9, so less work). Got a genuine Mitsubishi cap now and all fine. Done a full check of the system and all fine.
The engine saver alarm had been going off in the morning, and when the revs dropped just as I pull up to a stop, and the
water pump was not pushing as hard. Also was sometimes buzzing on stopping at up
hill traffic lights, and would go off with a rev of the engine. So
water level was not to the top of the radiator, but enough to cool the engine. So it has given me warning that all is not normal and the system was loosing a little bit of
water.
Reply By: Member - Mike DID - Tuesday, Aug 04, 2009 at 08:21
Tuesday, Aug 04, 2009 at 08:21
Where is the Engine Saver Sensor located ?
AnswerID:
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Follow Up By: Member - Oldplodder (QLD) - Tuesday, Aug 04, 2009 at 08:37
Tuesday, Aug 04, 2009 at 08:37
The sensor is located at the top radiator hose where it meets the radiator, the highest point in the cooling system.
FollowupID:
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Reply By: Serendipity of Mandurah (WA) - Tuesday, Aug 04, 2009 at 08:28
Tuesday, Aug 04, 2009 at 08:28
Had an old landcruiser motor boil over similar. Fine at lower than 80 speeds but at 100k it boiled over. Turned out to be one ring was gone on one piston. Get you compression check.
Also I agree about where your sensor is located. If the sensor is not in
water it will not be reading the temperature.
David
AnswerID:
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Follow Up By: Member - Oldplodder (QLD) - Tuesday, Aug 04, 2009 at 08:39
Tuesday, Aug 04, 2009 at 08:39
Thanks for
the tip.
Think it was the wrong radiator cap.
Will keep an eye on it and if the problem continues will do that.
FollowupID:
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Follow Up By: Member - Oldplodder (QLD) - Tuesday, Aug 04, 2009 at 08:40
Tuesday, Aug 04, 2009 at 08:40
Sorry, forgot to confirm, the engine saver alarm is a low
water alarm, detects
water, or lack of it, not temp. Temp gauge sender is mounted lower on the block.
FollowupID:
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Reply By: OzTroopy - Tuesday, Aug 04, 2009 at 08:47
Tuesday, Aug 04, 2009 at 08:47
Looks like the thing does what it is supposed to then.
No
water touching sensor ... the alarm sounds.
What was the go with the radiator cap .... wrong pressure on the sftermarket one lowering the boiling point ???
AnswerID:
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Follow Up By: Member - Mike DID - Tuesday, Aug 04, 2009 at 09:15
Tuesday, Aug 04, 2009 at 09:15
?????
"But the engine still boiled over on me and the engine saver alarm did not go off. . . . It took about 4 litres of
water,"
The Engine Saver Alarm is Not Fit For Purpose ! When Steam gets on it from a hot engine, it still thinks there is enough
water.
When
water is low with the engine COLD the alarm goes off because there is no steam to fool the sensor.
That's why I would only bother with an over-temperature alarm near the head - it's the source of heat and it will warn you, no matter what the cause of over-heating.
If you hadn't been watching the Temperature Gauge you would have cooked the engine.
FollowupID:
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Follow Up By: OzTroopy - Tuesday, Aug 04, 2009 at 09:24
Tuesday, Aug 04, 2009 at 09:24
???????????????????????????????
The engine saver low
water alarm is NOT a replacement for a temperature gauge.
Its an ancillary item that makes up for the things a temp sensor fails to detect.
Having both increases the chances of not having a cooling issue.
Fitting an additional temp sensor / gauge gives even more piece of mind.
All depends on the drivers needs.
FollowupID:
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Follow Up By: Member - Oldplodder (QLD) - Tuesday, Aug 04, 2009 at 09:31
Tuesday, Aug 04, 2009 at 09:31
Agree Mike and Oztroopy.
The alarm does what it is supposed to do, and warn of no
water, or to be more exact, when it can not earth through
water, whether it be steam or
water :o)
And yes, I still need to watch the temp gauge. :o)
Working both together gives a reasonably good warning system of problems.
Makes me wonder by some comments about low
water alarms if people would drive to the low
water alarm, and not watch the temp gauge. In which case I would have had a seriously damaged engine.
But the alarm was picked up by my wife at each engine start and I found that I had a slow leak of
water before it got serious. She drives the car more than I do these days. I most probably would have picked it up a few days later at the usual weekend
water level check, but got the warning a few days earlier. She is normally pretty good with engines, but has missed a high temp gauge reading before, and done some damage, hence the installation of the alarm.
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Follow Up By: Member - Roachie (SA) - Tuesday, Aug 04, 2009 at 10:18
Tuesday, Aug 04, 2009 at 10:18
G'day Oldplodder,
Sounds like you and I are from the same school....always keep an eye on your gauges..... that's what saved your engine this time.
I think it's already been covered, but I'll say it again.... the Engine Saver Alarm did what it was meant to do: alert you to the fact you have some issues with your cooling system. I reckon if you had not noticed the gauge rising, it would soon have sounded it's alarm, because there would soon have been no steam to have completed it's circuit.
Maybe you should also look at fitting one of those digital temp gauge/alarms which you can get off ebay for $149-. Then you have the best of both worlds....... The Engine Saver alerts you when you start a cold engine that there is a lack of
water (as can happen overnight on some occasions), whilst the new digital gauge (with it's alarm buzzer), alerts you to an engine that is getting too hot, but still has enough
water in the system to not have triggered the Engine Saver........ I've been thinking of fitting one of these myself.
Roachie
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Reply By: Member - Mike DID - Tuesday, Aug 04, 2009 at 09:37
Tuesday, Aug 04, 2009 at 09:37
I don't see how it can be called an Engine Saver Alarm - it gave you NO warning !!!!
The ONLY thing that saved your engine, was you looking at the Temperature Gauge.
AnswerID:
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Follow Up By: Member - Oldplodder (QLD) - Tuesday, Aug 04, 2009 at 09:47
Tuesday, Aug 04, 2009 at 09:47
If it had been a massive lost of
water, like a radiator hose going , the alarm would have gone off and saved the engine. The temp gauge would have gone from working in
water to steam and not shown the problem.
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Follow Up By: Member - Mike DID - Tuesday, Aug 04, 2009 at 09:53
Tuesday, Aug 04, 2009 at 09:53
I don't understand why you titled this thread "no warning for a boilover" when you now believe the "engine saver" is a great device ???
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Follow Up By: Member - Oldplodder (QLD) - Tuesday, Aug 04, 2009 at 10:09
Tuesday, Aug 04, 2009 at 10:09
Looks like I found the exception to the rule for a good device. Hence the post. :o)
When there is a slow leak, or a faulty radiator cap. The low
water alarm did not give me any warning.
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Follow Up By: Member - Roachie (SA) - Tuesday, Aug 04, 2009 at 10:23
Tuesday, Aug 04, 2009 at 10:23
They ARE a great device! I recall one time after I changed the coolant in my Patrol. I'd filled the radiator up to the point where I thought it was all good to go. I drove off from home and the first left hand corner I went around, the alarm sounded briefly. As soon as i straightened up it stopped buzzing. Hmmmm, pulled over and checked the radiator (coolant had barely had time to warm up, so no issue with removing the cap). Sure enough, the coolant was down about 20mm from the top. I added some
water and never had an issue again.
Clearly, the device is there to alert the driver to the lack of
water (or steam) in the system. It has performed that job admirably.
Roachie
FollowupID:
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Reply By: Member - Mike DID - Tuesday, Aug 04, 2009 at 10:47
Tuesday, Aug 04, 2009 at 10:47
It would be so easy to design a Low-
water alarm which would NOT detect useless steam as an adequate level of
water.
It would be so easy to design a Low-
water alarm which would not give a false alarm just because the sesnor was out of the
water for a few seconds when you go around a bend with normal
water level.
.
AnswerID:
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Follow Up By: Hairs & Fysh (NSW) - Tuesday, Aug 04, 2009 at 11:07
Tuesday, Aug 04, 2009 at 11:07
If it's so easy Mike, why don't you start your own business and put these other companies out of business?
Since they don't know what their doing :O
I believe they are a great product, It's like anything else, know how to use ithem, understand them and they'll look after you investment.
Simple really.
.
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Follow Up By: Member - Mike DID - Tuesday, Aug 04, 2009 at 11:14
Tuesday, Aug 04, 2009 at 11:14
I've spent enough of my working life designing and building electronic systems.
It's a shame to see poorly designed products, when with a bit more thought, they could have sold something for the SAME price that actually worked as an Engine Saver.
No, I don't design any improved Electronic Rust Protection Systems !!!
FollowupID:
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Follow Up By: Hairs & Fysh (NSW) - Tuesday, Aug 04, 2009 at 11:49
Tuesday, Aug 04, 2009 at 11:49
"No, I don't design any improved Electronic Rust Protection Systems !!!"
You've lost me. ????
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Follow Up By: Member - Roachie (SA) - Tuesday, Aug 04, 2009 at 12:14
Tuesday, Aug 04, 2009 at 12:14
Me too........ ????????
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Reply By: Member - Mick O (VIC) - Tuesday, Aug 04, 2009 at 11:46
Tuesday, Aug 04, 2009 at 11:46
Mate is the radiator pressurising even minimally and driving the
water out. Do you have a surge bottle prior to the reserve. If so check that the
water is not "rushing" into the surge bottle. Good indication of a minor head gasket leak. The pressuriation of the cooling system with gases coming past the head gasket to any extent will mean
water will not reenter from the reserve when the engine cools.
Cheers Mick
AnswerID:
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Follow Up By: Member - Oldplodder (QLD) - Tuesday, Aug 04, 2009 at 12:33
Tuesday, Aug 04, 2009 at 12:33
Mick, thanks for the suggestion.
No, don't have a sure bottle, just straight from the radiator to the overflow bottle.
Doing the easy things first :o0
Hoses, radiator caps.
Got my mechanic to do a carbon monoxide test of the
water, and a pressure test of the system, nothing pointing to head gaskets yet.
But have found in the past that the carbon monoxide test isn't always reliable for small head gasket leaks.
If problem keeps persisting, head comes off next.
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Reply By: Member - Lotzi (QLD) - Tuesday, Aug 04, 2009 at 11:58
Tuesday, Aug 04, 2009 at 11:58
Hi Oldplodder
At the end off the day, after all the above, (for myself I have always used Murphy alarm gauges) and you've checked the radiator cap. . .
where is the
water going?
Have you had the cooling system pressure tested?
What is the condition of the engine oil?
What is the condition of the coolant?
Is alloy corrosion an issue?
How is the thermostat?
What is the condition of the radiator hoses, do you have any hoses closing (sucking in) when under revs (100-110 kph) causing a boil off of
water, did the temp go down when the heater was turned on?
That's all for now, cheers . .
AnswerID:
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Follow Up By: Member - Oldplodder (QLD) - Tuesday, Aug 04, 2009 at 12:36
Tuesday, Aug 04, 2009 at 12:36
Thanks Lotzi,
Not losing
water as such, the 1/2 litre each morning I am emptying from the overflow
tank is going back into the radiator.
Oil OK,coolant OK. Hoses about 12 months old.
One step at a time, will keep these in mind.
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Follow Up By: Member - Lotzi (QLD) - Tuesday, Aug 04, 2009 at 13:31
Tuesday, Aug 04, 2009 at 13:31
Going by your photos in profile you have done the
miles to know your vehicle.
When these sort of things happen I always try and track down the problem, seems unusual, what about the radiator core, plenty of airflow?
Have you had the pump and injectors done recently, may be a pump timing issue .... and on and on .. ))
Good luck
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Follow Up By: Member - Roachie (SA) - Tuesday, Aug 04, 2009 at 14:22
Tuesday, Aug 04, 2009 at 14:22
John,
Could you do a couple of checks please.....
1). Take the lid off the expansion
tank. There will (should) be a short rubber hose hanging off the bottom of the lid that sits in the coolant. Is there ANY way that the end of that hose could be sitting flush against the side or bottom of the
tank in such a way that it is unable to suck back the coolant into the radiator?
2). With the radiator cap properly in place, is there any chance you can blow through the short rubber hose (mentioned above) and have the air escaping somewhere along the length between your lips and
the junction of the rubber hose with the radiator?
Cheers
Roachie
FollowupID:
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Follow Up By: Member - Oldplodder (QLD) - Tuesday, Aug 04, 2009 at 14:30
Tuesday, Aug 04, 2009 at 14:30
Thanks for the suggestion Roachie,
I have blown through the overflow hose, and blew and sucked as
well when it was cool, just in case the hose was collapsing, all OK. Put new clamps on the overflow hose as
well, just in case.
Took the top of the expansion
tank, and checked the hose was tight on the underside fitting, but didn't check hose length. Will do that.
Hose was a bit loose where it went on the underside of the lid, so put a new clip on it.
Problem seems to have mediated a fair bit with checking all these things, and rechecking hose clamps etc.
So just running it for a while and see what happens.
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Follow Up By: Member - Oldplodder (QLD) - Tuesday, Aug 04, 2009 at 14:34
Tuesday, Aug 04, 2009 at 14:34
Lotzi,
Yes, have had the car since new, and have all of the receipts, so know what was done when. Fuel pump was done 90,000k ago. All fine. Injectors done every 100,000k, so were done at 300,000k late 2007.
Core is fine even if original, had a new top
tank put on last year. Reasonably sure it is a cooling system problem.
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Reply By: Member - Vince B (NSW) - Tuesday, Aug 04, 2009 at 17:10
Tuesday, Aug 04, 2009 at 17:10
Hi John.
To quote from one pajero owner to another .
Maybe its time to update to a DID . LOL
Cheers.
Vince
AnswerID:
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Follow Up By: Member - Oldplodder (QLD) - Wednesday, Aug 05, 2009 at 07:52
Wednesday, Aug 05, 2009 at 07:52
Thanks Vince,
Thought had crossed my mind more than once :o)
Did look at one stage at dropping a DiD motor in the Paj, and get the best of both worlds.
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Reply By: taswegian - Tuesday, Aug 04, 2009 at 19:10
Tuesday, Aug 04, 2009 at 19:10
Oldploder,
Alloy heads as used on pajs can develop cracks around combustion inserts, This shows up as very small coolant lose at first then gets worse bit by bit until causing misfire at start up .If car has been used for towing this generally shows up around 200.000 ks Compression
test failed to find problem untill hyd lock afer laying idle for 4 days. Hope iam wrong.
Tassie..
AnswerID:
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Follow Up By: Member - Oldplodder (QLD) - Wednesday, Aug 05, 2009 at 07:54
Wednesday, Aug 05, 2009 at 07:54
Yep, that is the next step, head off for a look. :o(
This one has 330,000k up, and has done a bit of towing, but have careful on the additives to the cooling
water.
FollowupID:
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Reply By: Members Paul and Melissa (VIC) - Tuesday, Aug 04, 2009 at 19:58
Tuesday, Aug 04, 2009 at 19:58
My Outlaws recently retired ZL Fairlane was doing the same thing-evacuating the hot
water to the reservoir but not returning it. after exhausting all other options(mind you it had done 645,000k's) had a head gasket done at 250,000 and nothing else after. i stuck a botte of Chemi-Weld in it and no more problems. after about 9 or 10 months it started doing it again so in went another bottle and good again. dont have that problem anymore as they bought an Outlander and gave the ZL away as no one would buy it hahahaha.
AnswerID:
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Reply By: JR - Wednesday, Aug 05, 2009 at 08:52
Wednesday, Aug 05, 2009 at 08:52
I think they make one which has external head temp sensor also. Problem is in a fast loss situation these are too slow to react. Keep in mind theres now a air
gap between cylinder and head jacket which takes a while to heat up, but the low level should have gone off in this case.
In a slow leak they would work
well
JR
AnswerID:
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Follow Up By: Member - Bytemrk(VIC) - Wednesday, Aug 05, 2009 at 13:47
Wednesday, Aug 05, 2009 at 13:47
Yes they do.
I have one of these:
Enginesaver Combi Unit
It has the low
water sensor... which will let me know about things like split hoses, holed radiator where you have a sudden major loss of
water - that will NOT be picked up by the temp guage.
It also has a temperature sensor bolted to the head... as soon as the head gets hot (the setting is adjustable) I get both a visual and audible alarm.
Personally I think they are a great investment...
Mark
FollowupID:
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Follow Up By: Member - Bytemrk(VIC) - Wednesday, Aug 05, 2009 at 13:51
Wednesday, Aug 05, 2009 at 13:51
I forgot to mention JR.... I disagree with your comments about how fast these work.
If you bolt the temp sensor to the right place on the head... they react VERY fast. They are also very sensitive.
Mine is set just a few degrees above normal operating temp. In fact if I get stuck in stationary traffic on a hot day it sometimes will go off - a slight turn on
the knob to raise the warning temp a little and I am back in business...
Certainly gives me piece of mind.
Cheers, Mark
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Follow Up By: Footwall - Wednesday, Aug 05, 2009 at 18:44
Wednesday, Aug 05, 2009 at 18:44
Hi guys. What is the right place on the head for the sensor?
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Follow Up By: Member - Bytemrk(VIC) - Wednesday, Aug 05, 2009 at 20:59
Wednesday, Aug 05, 2009 at 20:59
It depends on the vehicle.
On my TD5 Discovery on the passenger side of the head roughly between cylinders 4 and 5 there is a very convenient bolt hole that works perfectly.
I'd suggest asking engine saver about your particular application. I found Dave very helpful indeed.
Cheers, Mark
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Reply By: Member - Graham H (QLD) - Wednesday, Aug 05, 2009 at 21:34
Wednesday, Aug 05, 2009 at 21:34
Now for something different.
How about a leaky frost plug in the side of
the block.
Dont know if you call them that here but we do in NZ.
They are the little dome shaped plugs along the side of
the block and usually its the one at the rear of
the block that you cant reach that weeps.
Have seen a few do that and make it hard to find the leak.
Cheers
AnswerID:
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