Damage to van by cheap generator

I think the circuit breaker only comes on if there is earth leakage

What's the difference between a 'cheap' gennie and a Honda etc.
I think the Scorpion is a direct copy of a Yamaha- including the electronics..
Granted the mechanicals my not be as good (as in the engine)- but the output must be up to par, and if they're not up to Aust. Standards then the importer should be liable for any damage incurred !!

I doubt it very much ,the Yamaha is way ahead in every dept.
The Scorpion is much larger and heavier and noisier
In a recent power outage,while the local power poles were being upgraded,I ran my fridge,computer and LCD screen directly from the little yammy and it all went perfect.

When you actually own one you will understand the difference;)

Some of the cheapies are beginning to attach stickers to the units advising they are not suitable for delicate appiances

Hi Ross,
with lots of common power tools, fridges, cfl's etc now full of electronics, it makes one wonder what the el-cheapo gennies are safe running!

I was thinking the same. I guess light bulbs these days are about it,if the voltage doesnt spike too high LOL

Hi
The problems with el cheopos are:-
Few are pure sine wave which is what your normal supply is.
I would not have a nonpure sine wave genny or inverter if I was given one.
I know many will chirp up they have used them ok , the problem is if they are not you find out the expensive way.
Many also have poor voltage & frequency control .
Which may not immmediately cause damage but can over time.
Yes ok for incandescent lights But you take a risk with anything that has electronics.

any thing with electronics or printed circuit boards would be no 1 on the list

ps and that includes some standard kitchen appliances such as toasters.....generally kettles might be okay even one with a boil dry switch might suffer

I've had a different experience with a Scorpion generator. Was not ain invertor type.

I have successfully run 3 stage battery chargers off a Scorpion, but only after loading it up with 2 x 100W incandescent light bulbs to give it some background load. Start generator, connect lights, connect charger and follow the opposite sequence when turning off.

Ran for nearly a week on Straddie like this. Not ideal but workable. Yes inverters models are more foolproof.

Oh, I should have added that your circuit breaker did not activate because it is not designed or intended to protect against voltage spikes. Only over-current or possibly earth leakage.

Once the over-voltage spike had damaged the appliance it is quite possible that the appliance may then draw excessive current but also likely that the generator was unable to provide sufficient current to activate the circuit breaker, merely enough to produce the "Dark Brown Smell"

Re the waveforms, I have put a few on my web site at

http://web.aanet.com.au/bycompass/toppage1.htm

Check out the standby power unit specially made for computers (UPS) by another name.

Pooley

The scorpian is a copy of the YAMAHA ET950


f.y.i


:)

Yamaha 1000 Inverter Generator

Wow - Why pay that when 1300 will buy a just as good if not better Yamaha - Link above.

I purchased from this site and have never looked back. Cheers Tony

Wheeley, correct me if I am wrong....but I have always been led to believe NOT to have ANY appliances, or anything else for that matter, plugged in and switched on, for the start up of ANY generator. I don't, and haven't had any problems with cheap GMC's or my Honda 2000.
Interesting post this one.

Fred.

Fred
Very sound advice.

Modern generators with AVR (Auto Voltage Regulation ) offset the potential of surges and sinewave converts the power produced in a stable manner so you can use them with gear connected.

Your way is the best practice regardless but its a bit difficult with hard wired generators and auto start units in power switching applications.

With the advent of Combi Inverters chargers some are so good they can be adjusted for dirty power and can act on interchange from mains to generator to inverter in under 20MS and you would not notice the change like no pause or thump in aircon units.


Ian

Turn on any appliance plugged into the 230 volt mains and if you hit a steep bit of the sine wave at the switch on point and you will easily exceed an 420 volts spike !

Some of the comments on this thread about "rubbish" generators are themselves absolute rubbish. Yes, there are some generators that do not have good voltage regulation but appliances that "blow up" must also share some of the blame for not having devices to cope with voltage spikes. Anyone who lives out in the country on the end of a long power line will have experienced just as big voltage sags and spikes as the average basic generator creates. I would be more worried about the warranty on the generator.

KK

KK
Being at the end of the line in NSW country we were the first to install eftpos and in the first year we replaced machines on a regular basis due to surges and Nesca at the time denied they existed.

We also had dimmers on the lights in a bistro and we noticed that on some sundays the lights practically went out for some time and then came back on.

One customer under the weather a bit said "They are probable shifting a big miner in the Hunter Valley and need all the power for oit to travell.

It proved no joke.

KK Whats the power like inNZ here I thought the mains were actually 320+V9The peak voltage) with 240V being the RMS Voltage and gens can hit 320-340VRMS whenthey start which can peak at around 420V.

I have a quality charger in a Pregia in NZ that has been replaced and they state no generator has been used but the input capacitor was blown and it was 400V.
Ian

Do you think Im being told a porkie.

i
Member - Kiwi Kia posted:
Turn on any appliance plugged into the 230 volt mains and if you hit a steep bit of the sine wave at the switch on point and you will easily exceed an 420 volts spike !

Hi
Quite true & the gear has to cope with that & it does not happen just at switch on,but @ every half cycles.
But if the geny wave form is poor with spikes & excess voltage ,they will be on top of the NORMAL PEAK sine wave voltage.!!

Extra high voltage spikes are not good news but it's suprising what goes by and your equipment does not suffer. It's the energy in the spike that causes the damage ie. the current and time. Most people have no idea just how 'unclean' their normal power is - it certainly is not "pure sine wave".

Oldtrack, Power station switching, thyristor switching (dimmers, speed control, dc welders etc) working nearby will play havoc and put large spikes on your sine wave, in most cases probably an awful lot more rubbish on your mains power then comes out of your generator.

RV powerstream,
"I have a quality charger in a Pregia in NZ that has been replaced and they state no generator has been used but the input capacitor was blown and it was 400V."
Sorry, I am not familia with "Pregia".
I wish I could give a good reason for why some capacitors blow up ! I would sugest that harmonics can sometimes cause problems or the PIV ratings of the capacitor either not up to spec or the device (capacitor) PIV rating marginal for the circuit it's being used in.

"KK Whats the power like inNZ here I thought the mains were actually 320+V9The peak voltage) with 240V being the RMS Voltage and gens can hit 320-340VRMS whenthey start which can peak at around 420V."

220 - 240 (no +/- 10% and then momentary spikes and sags etc. etc. But, who decides what the definition of momentary actually is ? Privateisation of the power companies makes it impossible to to deal with them (the power companies). I have seen large sags (brown outs) cause some very large plc network controlled machinery to have major problems often costing several thousand dollars each time it happened (almost everyday). The plc's would sense the sags and drop off line causeing huge dc drive lines (around 1000 hp)to coast to a stop causing major production problems. The problem was switching high voltage DC submarine transmission line (South Island to North Island) into and out of the main distribution network network via massive thyristor stacks. Due to the above problems we had to watch just what we were actually getting comming down the power lines on a daily basis. It can be (and often is) extremely rough !

KK

KK
The Previa (Not Pregia sorry) is the Police Speed Camera Vans and we supply equipment for them.
They are used on batteries through the day and are recharged over night.

Henderson appears as a trouble spot.

Ian

As far as I am aware all the speed camera operations have been contracted out to private companies for a couple of years now. The cops only use the laser guns. The cops may own the cameras but lease them out to the contractors - I don't know. I often wonder how many books the operator reads in a day :-)) In this part of the world I see plenty of the Mitzi L300 vans being used as camera vehicles. Are you familiar with the term "Jaffa" Down here that stands for "Just Another F... Aucklander". I don't know the design of the charger but could they be pluging them in under load instead of connect first and then turn on. The 'inrush' might then be throttled back on the input side by a line choke. Or are they switch mode ? I have seen a lot of trouble with switch mode devices that I suspect have been caused by spikes.

KK

Paul
Voltage is controlled by the voltage regulator, not the RPM. Frequency is controlled by rpm. The voltage should remain fairly constant no matter what the rpm, within reason of cause.
If the voltage fluctuates there is likely a problem with the voltage regulator.
I'm not an electrician so correct me if I am wrong.

Chris

The GMC i have peaks at just over 300v when it starts hunting, so anything electronic is going to fry on that.

This only proves that these cheap generators have a very cheap voltage regulator that have very poor response times.

Chris

And I think the solar setup is the smart way to go.....if you have the right sized setup, the gennie should hardly ever get used...

Can't believe the ammount of people getting around with 50,000 dollar 4x4's and towing a 40,000 dollar van who baulk at paying $1500 for a solar ( or gennie ) setup ????

One or the other ( or both ) are one of the most important aspects of being able to camp out and relax and not have to worry about possible failures ( especially out in the scrub miles from civalisation )