tow ball weights

g'day greg,we took it on a short trip and i filled the water tank which is above and behind the axle and we packed as much gear as possible behind the axle which did help a little but not any where enough to take the worry away.with the van empty i put the bathroom scales to the test by jacking the jockey wheel off the ground it slipped past the limit of 120kg's pretty quickly. minus the block of wood and the jack it's still pretty heavy, but the missus reckon's the scales have been known to lie.it's still a long way above the pitiful tow ball weight of the crv, i kick myself for trading in the old 1997 patrol now ,but a van wasn't on the horizon then.

thanks Graham,
next chance i get i will get it to a weigh bridge and weigh it the way you described, also i will ring a honda dealer and find out about any allowable upgrades. thanks again.
ps.where would be the fun in motel nights,maybe it's back to tent night's, but as you get older the ground get's harder.

Graham, Australia has always subscribed to that theory of draw bar weight to be stabilised.

In most parts of the world trailers are as near to balanced front to rear as possible and a stabiliser device fitted to counter the possible sway , we in Australia say the opposite, but we may have to change our thinking on this as more and more cars have lighter tow ball weights than used to be.

There are many good stabilising devices on the market that are much cheaper than a new car would be.

AL-KO anti sway coupling

I towed a large double axle Giest c/van in Germany - Austria behind an Audi 100 with 70 kg ball weight max (the actual ball weight was only around 45kg) and I have to say I have never been so comfortable towing a big van as I was with that rig, fitted with the AL-KO anti sway coupling.

This was despite some big winds around Hamburg while driving at Autobahn speeds and truck buffeting on the back roads was a breeze as was alpine driving on twisting roads in Austria.

We may need to re-think our ways here, sooner rather than later, the way car construction is going around the world. No longer does Holden & Ford build cars for heavy tow ball weights and not everyone wants to drive a 4 x 4.
Cheers Colin.

You may well be correct but until manufacturers do that we must stick to the tried and true with existing vans.

The Geist use a Winterhoff coupling which grips the towball and creates a resistance as you say.

My neighbour has one on a Sunland but I dont know if it makes it any better as he also has a WDH.

The European vans are also a lot lighter and it has to be proved how durable they are here.

The question posted pertained to an Aussie built van and the advice was given in answer to that.

Cheers

Graham
the point I was trying to make was, that john&thejayco have options available to them here in Australia, right now, to rectify their immediate problem of trailer balance & subsequent control of that trailer without having to buy a bigger or heavier car, I therefore did not lose sight of the original post about an Aussie built van, it can be "balanced correctly" without losing control.
Cheers, Colin

Ok, you say the options are there.

So what are they.

Read my reply properly, mate.

"Take it to a weigh bridge and weigh it with the wheels and jockey wheel on the scales. Pull the jockey wheel forward and weigh it with just the wheels on the scales. The difference is your ball weight.

"The ATM may surprise you as well.

"Jaycos now have all the weights listed on their compliance plate so perhaps you could check it."

No, the ATM will never surprise you. It is written on the VIN plate. The ATM is not a variable weight. It is a figure set by the trailer manufacturer and it is the maximum weight that your loaded trailer is not to exceed. The ATM may only be altered by having a qualified (and certified) engineer assess the trailer and any modifications you have made to it. You then need to have your trailer reweighed for its new tare weight and the registration details ammended.

PeterD

From FollowUp 2:

"In most parts of the world trailers are as near to balanced front to rear as possible and a stabiliser device fitted to counter the possible sway , we in Australia say the opposite, but we may have to change our thinking on this as more and more cars have lighter tow ball weights than used to be."

It is only the European situation that use light ball weights and even then they only come down to 7% ball weight. The American situation is 10 - 15% ball weights.

European vans are constructed with a different philosophy to our vans. It is not just because their vans are lighter. Stability depends on how the load is distributed. If you want a light ball load then you can not have significant weight at either end of the van. We can build vans with the heavy Oz type construction with most of the weight in the middle and low ball weights.

This means:-
1. Much smaller boots to limit the load up front.
2. No front or rear kitchens.
3. Batteries and solar panels located over the wheels.
4. No or very light bumper bars.
5. One water tank located over the axles and only one spare tyre mounted immediately behind it.
6. And certainly no tool boxes, boat trailers, outboard motors, batteries and other heavy items that some Richard craniums like to hang off the front or back

For an explanation of how caravan stability is effected by weight at the extremities - see this link

"There are many good stabilising devices on the market that are much cheaper than a new car would be.

AL-KO anti sway coupling"

Al-Ko anti sway couplings do not remove ball weight from the trailer. They should not be used to correct inherent instability in trailers, only to give added stability.

There is also an excellent study on caravan stability conducted by the University of Bath (UK.) It suggests that at lower speeds the friction devices might be of some benefit but at high speeds and at high oscillations they may be dangerous. The basic thinking is that friction devices help preventing things from getting out of line. However once your rig is severely out of line they also impede the rig from coming back into line - read this link for more info

PeterD

Nomadic navarra You missed my point entirely.

What I was trying to say was he may well be surprised by the actual ATM when he weighs it.

Or should I have said The all up weight when he weighs it.

Means the same doesnt it.


I agree with your comments about the idiots that load them up till they are full and still stick the rest in.

I cant believe what I see getting around and whats towing it as well.

Unbelievable.

"Nomadic navarra You missed my point entirely.

"What I was trying to say was he may well be surprised by the actual ATM when he weighs it.

"Or should I have said The all up weight when he weighs it.

"Means the same doesnt it."

Graham - I think it is you that has missed the point. ATM is is a legal entity. You may be able to weigh a van to ascertain its aggregate weight. As I said above, The ATM is a figure fixed by the manufacturer. It is recorded in the registration database. How the hell can you measure what is in a database with a weighbridge? The all up weight and the ATM are different things. Anyone who really knows the subject should be aware of this.

PeterD

Whatever

I know the ATM is a set figure

As I said he may be surprised what the ACTUAL all up weight is when he weighs it.

Usually it exceeds the ATM unless you are very careful.


Cheers

Woooooooops - 50 kg is actually about 110 lbs. Sorry - seniors moment. I would still be very cautious applying any worthwhile load to it.

I forgot to say that the way things are at present I think you will still need about 10% over the ball which is more than likely going to be over 50kg.

I forgot to say that the way things are at present I think you will still need about 10% over the ball which is more than likely going to be over 50kg.

cheers mate, that list supplied with all info on just about every vehicle you could imagine really helped and it weeded out the 1988 pajero as not having much better tow ball capacity than the honda with a limit of 75 kg's.the couple of pajero's i was looking at were the1988 and a 1994 , the 1994 wins hands down with a 2500kg towing capacity and a 250 kg's ball weight.these are both old buses that need a bit of love, but a blokes gotta have a past time. I've got to keep the honda,because the family loves it and the car dealers will only offer you half its worth.
The kids just loved the one trip with the van and they are busting to go again, and thier not the only ones.everyone has been a great help,so when things get back on track,and we can get out there.hope to see you all out there.