18 yr old killed in recovery attempt

"This year on the rally the boss banned the use of snachem on tow ball after the bull bar incident in WA earlier this year"

Sharon
Why did they only recently ban such a practise??

Its been a well known not to do when snatching a vehicle for many years now.
To my knowledge 4 WD clubs have been instructing their members during the various driver training/awareness programs that members undertake when joining that under no circumstances should a tow ball be used in such a way for recovery purposes. (My club certainly does this)

There has also been a number of posts regarding this issue on this Forum and a few others with photos of the results of a tow ball breaking during a snatch.

If indeed the young man was killed in this fashion its a very sad and avoidable situation.

Not a 4x4 club.

My point is that it appears from what you said that the person in charge of your rally seems to lack the basic knowledge required to manage a safe event??

To suggest that they stop this method of recovery only recently when its been a well known unsafe practise in the 4WD community for a very long time does not reflect very well on the safety aspects of the event.

John,
Careful judging an event or an organiser without knowing all the facts. Maybe they believed people knew this fact but after the W.A. incident they reinforced it. In a rally event I used to be involved in they issued a warning about not smoking near a refuelling point. I thought why would they issue this warning, everyone would know that. Not the case, someone was smoking while talking to a service crew who were refuelling. It is a very rare time that you hear of injuries in rallys which is amazing considering the nature of the sport.

Josh

Josh I understand what you are saying but a reminder not to smoke near a refuelling point sounds like its a reinforcement of an existing practise or rule and is a bit different to banning a practise.

I can't imagine any individual with enough experience to be placed in the responsible position to safely manage a rally event wouldn't already know that using a tow ball in such a fashion is not safe so it begs the question why was it not a banned practise long before this year??

Maybe they had never had an issue with it or seen it done in the rallys but the incident in W.A. was a timely remnder for them to mention it. I'm just saying it is impossible to cover every scenario and sometimes an accident is used as a reminder to be careful. The amount of organising and coordination for these events is massive. I would not think you should have to tell adults not to smoke near petrol but apparently you do.

Josh

Is it just the Tow BALL itself or the actual whole tow ball tongue that your not supposed to snatch with? As they make the tongues that slide in with the shackle on the end specifically for recovery, and how and why would they be different?

Not trying to fuel a debate or anything just keen to know as i would like to purchase one of these tongues.

Very sad about the young bloke, as with everything in life, even what seems like the simplest and safest of tasks can go terribly wrong to the unexperienced . I too am guilty of having used backyard tactics when it comes to recoveries. Many times as a kid and even as an adult.

Once while coming home from a camping trip we came upon a full sized ex Greyhound coach bogged in black soil along the Ord river, and about 45 anglican church folk sitting under the only tree for miles. We hooked up the Tojo, with unrated 8mm chain and two small unrated hardware brand anchor chain shackles. The old man selected low 4, and gave it sh#t. After about 20 seconds of all 4 wheels spinning and the clutch burning it pulled the coach out. The shackles had nearly become straight and had to be cut off. That was something i will never forget. The good old days when you gave anything a crack, but things were built alot tougher back then. No way would you try that with the sh#t they sell these days. After measuring the chain later it hadnt even stretched or worn anywhere between the links. The old man has still got it actually and its still as good as the day he got it.

It would appear to be only the tow ball but one article did say the tow assembly. If it was just the tow ball they were pulling off, no wonder. A tow ball can pull a couple of ton but in a snatch recovery it could be a lot more pressure than that. The tow ball can't handle that pressure. If you using the tow assembly to pull off is to be rated for recovery not just a basic tow hitch. Many years years ago I helped recover a 4wd from out of a dam. It was 6 feet under water. The only point we could get to while diving down was the bullbar so hooked up the cable. Started the recovery and.... as the car came out of the water, still full inside and weighing heaps we actually pulley the entire bullbar off. It tore the bolts clean out of the chassis. We had taken all precautions as it was an extreme recovery but goes to show with enough stress in the recovery just about anything will let go. His recovery points were attached to the bullbar anyway. Just goes to show how tough the cruiser was though lol. After seeing that I don't take any recovery lightly or trust any recovery point unless a proper recovery point.

Josh

Should have chosen my words better. For years the practice was a known fact its wrong but this year the scrutineering was at a level that was great to see and as far as I know was adhered to. No check list no entry. John you were very quick off the mark to assuming the worst. Moving right along
Chow.

In regard to Kroozers Question, I've often wondered about the hitch made for retrieving, With the force generated from a snatch strap, i think its a question of how well is the whole tow assembly bolted to the vehicle? Size , number and grade of bolts holding the thing on? Throwing a rope or whatever over the top of a tow ball is a definite no no!!, But for a easy pull have wrapped a a tow strap around the the tung a few times, then around the tow ball just to hold it in place,



Cheers Axle

"Should have chosen my words better"
Well possibly??

"John you were very quick off the mark to assuming the worst"
Yes maybe but my comments were simply based on the information you provided!!
I would still be concerned that from what you said they only just banned this practise this year, indicates they are somewhat behind the times.

Enough said.

Kroozer makes a valid point,

I was once involved in a recovery on an old landcruiser tray back with no recovery hooks so we snatched off the main brace of the tow bar, only to reveal the towbar mount bolts snapped (rusty) and one side of the bar had been snapped before and re welded on (crapy welds).

I have snatched from the pin in a Haymen reece bar before but when that bar ripped off the back of the cruiser It made my heart skip a beat. The point being we never Inspected how the bar was mounted to the vehicle, If we did we would have found one side had been rewelded and wouldnt have touched it.

Since then I will only use rated revovery hooks and I have a good look first at the conditon before using a snatch strap.

Cheers

I believe it did go through the front although if it was being recovered from behind the srtap would have been attached to both tow balls and could have gone through the rear window. I'm only speculating but I wonder if being an end of year footy trip and 3 am I wonder if alcohol was involved clouding some judgement.

Josh

Unfortunately, it sounded like a disaster waiting to happen. EoY Football trip, 3AM. You have to ask why they were out 4wding at that time. This isn't a 4wd accident, it is an alcahol incident by the sounds of it.

The report with the photo says windscreen, yet the article says rear window.
Bit of conflicting reporting there.
Very tragic event.

Thanks Josh, i forgot about the rear to rear recovery. (brain not working as required :))

Tragic death no matter what the circumstances.

Andrew

Boobook...why do you say that. So many experts with self opinions !!!

Poor bugger is dead, leave him be !!

Dunco, it was truely tragic. But the fact is that a 3AM recovery with a bunch of footy players celebrating is not normal safe practice. Sorry for having an opinion that differs from yours. Will ask your permission in future.

Bookbook...how about leaving the investigations to the real experts, not the ones that think they know.

I love pople who can express an opinion but don't understand that others can have O-P-I-N-I-O-N-S. Height of ignorance.

I never said I had done a dammed forensic examination.

I will repeat....how about leaving the investigations to the real experts, not the ones that think they know.

No ignorance mate...leave that to those that know.

And correct spelling is "Damned"

Have a nice day

Easy guys, End of year footy trips do have a reputation of a lot of alcohol consumption, not saying tis was the case here. I guess ultimately what ever happened someone paid the price for it and serves as a reminder/warning to all to be careful.

Josh

Just ask yourself this question please everybody. When you were 18 did you not drink, have fun or do silly things that you later regretted. There is no law for attempting rescues at 3am in the morning. I am guilty of all of the above, still do all to this day actually. This young fella's death is the result of an accident. Not everyone out there are experts at 4wding and recovery techniques like alot of people around here think they are.

Experience, wisdom and knowledge comes with age. Instead of arguing over it, how about trying to think about a way that could prevent this from happening again.

Dont bring all the negatives out of an already tragic situation please. His mates have got a hangover that will last there lifetime, and this young bloke hadnt even lived long enough to know any better.

Hi Andrew

It and be as said fairly easily as their is so much force generated. I came across one just after the towpoint had been wrenched from its mount and smashed the rear window right on the edge and imbedded the hook into the rear windows door frame - sort of makes you take notice !

Its a reason we have long given up taking snatch'em straps and only use winch straps or the winch plasma rope.

In the past few weeks I have come across several bad rescue attempts from some one doing a 4wheel drift and rolling there Hi-lux twice and then pulling it on its feet late at night with anything they had.

While I don't use a snatch strap , my old one from the shed was grabbed and used about 2am in the morning just recently to pull a car off a tree in an inadequate manner , so this post is a good reminder for me to again re-inforce a simple message.

There are certainly a few recovery experts on here who can tell how much Alcohol was involved and what was done wrong without knowing all the facts. I know the area well and the family involved. Would you like it if it was your family that was involved and all these experts were giving there opinion on what they thought happened. Get a life.
DUKE

Duke,

This is a very tragic accident, and it is obvious that it has affected you, so we can only imagine how it would affect the family of the deceased.

But as far as the experts on this forum, I agree with you regarding derogatory comments re-alcohol etc., but one good thing about this discussion is the fact that it is alerting people to the dangers of vehicle recovery.

Our thoughts are with all concerned with this tragedy.

Geoff.

Thanks for that Robin,

Going by that information, i take it you could use a length of plasma rope, quick spliced to the length required, then use that to pull/tow out the other vehicle. No 1-2m runup obviously....

Am i correct in my thoughts, or is that a dangerous action?

Andrew

Hi Andrew

Yep you could , but I'm not that clever , for small pulls I usually just lock the winch and then wrap the plasma around my tow hook a couple of times.

Makes for easy adjustment and definately no run up for me.