Recovery Gear? Are these safe

Hi Garry

I found the same when I investigated these things a few years ago.

The device may be ok , but the Hayman reece is not rated for snatching and hence you cannot use the device in one.

As a result of this I made my own homemade one - which I also would not use for snatching or with a stretchable strap.

Had a situation with our fire tenders. FESA said that the Reace Hitch (female end) was to be used for recovery purposes. Ok in theory but the pin bent so badly that we had to bash it out. Snatching exercise was a very soft recovery and nothing hard. The pins were subsequently changed to a higher tensile.

Gidday

thanks for saving me some money and looking like a goose!

And looking like a goose is worse than spending money when you don't need to!

I knew that using the towball was bad there I was thinking i needed one of those things that slot into the receiver to take a shackle and all I need is the pin.

The forum delivers again.


Cheers

Rocco

Nice theory lads, pity there a a few snatch straps on the market that won't fit inside a Hayman Reece box section.

Here's a couple for you, one has a leather re-inforced eye the other a sleeve over the eye. Both are to big to fit down the 50mm tube let alone put the pin through as well.



There are two ways to use them, a shackle in the towball hole with the associated bending moments on the goose neck or one of those billet hitches for a straight line pull.

Over to the experts to choose,

Even if you know the rating, do you know how much force you are applying during use? Same applies to other components...... bow shackles, straps, recovery points etc.

Too true Allan - all in all I prefer not having to do recoveries but for my way of thinking, I'd much rather have the snatch strap eyelet hurtling toward my vehicle from a pin failure than a hitch tongue/toweball - I'm fairly sure I know which would hurt the most...

Yes DC, I agree with your sentiments. I too use the pin through the strap eye technique and have never had a problem. I would consider that the strap would fail before the pin. And if the pin were to fail then it would probably shear at one end then bend whilst still being retained in the housing thus releasing the strap without any pin shrapnel.

Does anyone have FIRST HAND experience of pin failure using this technique?

Read a different book @

Yep, but snatching deaths are preventable.
Makes it more than just a bad accident.

Hairy, bad accidents happen, but hopefully the rest of us can learn from it to reduce the risk of having a similar/same bad accident ourselves.

Yes, people even die when they do everything by the "book", and that is why we have regular updates to the "book" (eg. ADR's are continually being reviewed/added, Building Codes are also continually being amended/renewed and of course: the Victorian Gov't is currently reviewing their "Stay'n'Defend or Leave Early" book!). What's wrong with LEARNING from the bad accidents?

This is afterall one of the profound differences between a developed country and and undeveloped one: developed countries recognise human life as valuable and therefore try to take reasonable steps to protect it. Undeveloped countries (in general), have a much lower value on human life and therefore take greater rsks, and subsequently have more bad accidents - I could provide you with many more photos of building sites in undeveloped countries which demonstrate that they don't bother to learn from the bad accidents, and not surprisingly, they continue to have high numbers of bad accidents. Is this really what you want for Australia?

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I agree Timbo.

Accidents will happen, unfortunately and people will die. Hopefully, just hopefully by our own actions we can help avoid one, one day.

In the case that led to this thread it would seem the recovery was attempted in the early hours of the morning. None of us are at our best at that time and I remember from my shiftwork days (a lifetime ago) that we called it the graveyard shift. Maybe, just maybe, a lesson to be learned is do we have to do the recovery now? or will we just get some sleep, where we are and look at it again in the morning.

I think it was Jack Absalom in his book "Safe Outback Travel" who stressed when something happens get the billy out and boil it and have a cuppa. Helps stop rushing around and making things worse before we think of an easier and safer way to get out of the situation.

Another point that has been mentioned in this thread is to remove the towball and only have the pin fitted. That way there can be no temptation to shortcut. I adopted this practise after my recent inland trip. I wondered why one of the young local bush fire brigade blokes always had his vehicle setup this way. I should have asked him before the trip. After doing a recovery on the trip I understood. Yes there is a temptation to shortcut as I had to find the key to unlock the locking pin before removing the towball etc. Was a bit paranoid about it being pinched (old city habits die hard). Yeah I was new to this and had a lot to learn and still do. Now there is no temptation. It isn't there anymore. If I need to tow I will fit the tow ball assembly when towing otherwise it is not there. This also improves the departure angle and this is handy going down steep sand dunes.

By adopting better ways of doing things perhaps we can improve the chances of surviving when we are fatigued, tired and not at out best.

Apologies if this appears patronising. It is not meant that way. There have been an awful lot of fatal vehicle accidents in the region I live in recently and it brings home none of us are immune from them. Sometimes we know those who have died or a family member. We all make mistakes and if we are fortunate we will survive and learn from them.

Gday,

Oldsquizzy .....Yep....and thats why I dont read too many books.
Cause when theyre wrong.......they just write a new one?

Phil,
I reckon your riight too......BUT...they will always happen....and I dont think that makeing another rule or gadget will prevent them?

Timbo, Flynnie,
I still think that common sense prevails, and rules only stop people thinking for themselves?
Ive taken out the tow ball and used the pin for snatching for years..........the downfill is......if you bend the pin.......your chances of putting the ball back in and towing your trailer away after becomes a major exercise?
These days I usually wrap the strap around the tounge and over the ball just to stop it slipping........and drive accordingly
Im not saying its the safest way...........but if its too hard ,people will just stop stoppinig to help others unless they are prepared to write a JSA and sign a Statdec.


Just my thought...
If people just drove accordingly........used common sense.......and accepted accidents will happen and theyre NOT all avoidable( because of the human factor) Australia would be a better place????????

Cheers

It's a bit of a difficult area Hairy - you and I might think that common sense prevails, but as many will tell you, the trouble with common sense is that it is not very common! Rules can then be helpful to guide those who aren't willing (or taught) to think for themselves. But then comes the danger you've highlighted: rules stop people from thinking for themselves. It has been said that all the playgrounds etc. are now so safe that kids are growing up without the ability to ever make a subconscious risk assessment before doing something (eg. if I do this, what could happen? Is it likely to hurt me/someone else? etc.). It's like a vicious cycle - people didn't think, so we made rules, now they think even less! Somewhere, perhaps there's a balance.

Flynnie, I agree in principle even if not in the details (ie. leaving the car in a bog overnight increases the risk of water damage). The principle seems to be about being aware of our natural tendencies (ie. being tempted to take shortcuts) which can cause us problems, and taking steps against our normal tendencies.

And Hairy, yes, accidents will always happen as you've said - I think what you're trying to say is Australia will be a better place if we can accept that accidents happen and there is not always someone to sue over it (except perhaps our own clumsy self). I just fear that the other extreme would enable everyone to do what they like, even endangering other people, and never face any responsibility for it. Again, somewhere there's a balance.

I also fear a fatalistic attitude that says "accidents will happen so don't waste time/effort/etc. trying to prevent them" and I hope this is not what you're saying. To give one example, when the Titanic went down they could have just dismissed it as an unavoidable accident (they could even have quite rightly said "You weren't 'driving' according to the conditions") but many new regulations were implemented following that tragedy. Many of those regulations centred on the fact that accidents will continue to happen but tried to reduce the loss of human life in subsequent accidents (things like having radio rooms manned 24/7, having sufficient lifeboats for everyone, etc.). What is a lifeboat if not an acceptance that accidents will happen? And while you could argue that common sense would dictate that you should have enough lifeboats for the people on a ship but the fact is, this was an important lesson learned from a very bad 'accident'.
Less obscure: how do we know it's a bad idea to hook the snatch strap straight over the the towball? Possibly because someone once did it, it ended badly and we learned from their accident. Someone on here has in their profile/footer "There's only one thing more painful than learning from experience and that is NOT learning from experience!" and it doesn't always have to be our own experience that we learn from.

And finally, for me, the chance of me having to a vehicle recovery is higher than the chance of towing something so I have removed the towball from the tongue (I keep it in the car with a towball spanner - this also prevents wrecking the towball thread by bumping it on rocks etc.). To snatch, I just put a rated shackle through the towball hole in the tongue which means you don't bend the pin. As Hairy said, I drive accordingly - ie. not flat out like many people seem to think necessary! While a snatch strap is a quick way to get a lightly bogged vehicle out, if a couple of gentle tugs won't even budge the stuck vehicle, it's not a recovery that can/should be done with a snatch strap anyway (ie. if you have to drive flat out to snatch someone, then you shouldn't be using a snatch strap in that situation). And yes, it will be a sad day for Australia when you can't "help out a mate who's in trouble" without a JSA or StatDec.

Gday Timbo,
Cant argue with any of that?
It takes all kinds I guess....Have a great weekend and go the HOLDENS!!!!!

Cheers
Hairy

Hairy i have always carried a spare pin as they take up no room & cost less than $5- & have not had to use the spare pin as yet & have done many recoveries using the orignal pin
Martin

Martin,
Having a spare pin isnt the problem......Its getting the old one out after you bend it.

Cheers

Wok

Get some Maxtrax and leave snatching as a last ditch option.

I think that snatching should not be the first resort. Arguably it should be the last resort. It places shock loads on vehicles that, I think, are hard to estimate. As a last resort I would still be prepared to give it a go.

In the case that led to this thread arguably the use of Maxtrax would have been a better option. A shovel also may have been a better tool than a recovery strap.

I did not offer these opinions earlier as I thought it would look like gratuitous advice and would appear rather insensitive given the topic of the thread. But maybe some simple standard operating procedures could be prepared by people much more experienced and expert than a novice like me. Probably better moved to a new thread though.

I would suggest something like.

Bogged at night. Can it wait till morning? If so look at it in the morning.

If not and there is a genuine urgent need to free bogged vehicle in dark.

Then all unnecessary personnel should move well away. Maxtrax and a shovel should be tried and if these fail then a snatchstrap recovery could be attempted.

Prior to attempting the snatch recovery all non essential personnel should be well clear. If this approach was adopted there would be two drivers at some risk but no passengers or bystanders at risk.

It is my view that if something resembling this approach had been adopted the fatality may well have been avoided even allowing for the tow ball being (wrongly) used. As in most accidents it is not one thing gone wrong but a whole group of things gone wrong that leads to the accident.

I have recovered a vehicle heavily bogged in sand with a shovel and Maxtrax and cannot speak highly enough of them. I have also recovered another vehicle using a snatch strap but it was not a snatch, more a tow and the shock forces were negligible. I much prefer to use Maxtrax and keep a snatchstrap stored away.

The only situation I could see Maxtrax and a shovel not working on sand is climbing a steep dune and in that case reversing back down would get one out of trouble.

Perhaps it is time that snatching went out of favour as a preferred method of recovery.

.

Flynnie,

TFT....appreciate your approach.

eng hoe