Solar Regulators

Submitted: Monday, Oct 19, 2009 at 10:09

ThreadID: 73134 Views:5700 Replies:8 FollowUps:39

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Solar Power

This article covers every aspect of solar and its design and installation in RVs (camper trailers, caravans and motor homes). It shows how much power solar panels really produce,

Gronk

A question for all you solar gurus.......thinking of putting a panel on a pole (approx 3 M high ) attached to the camper.....

Is it feasable to put the regulator onto the panel..and run the wires down to the merrit plug on the side of the camper......or would it be better to have the regulator near the batts ??....only problem with the 2nd option is getting the larger panel volts inside the camper body to the regulator ??

Thinking option 1 would involve a bit of voltage drop, but hopefully not a lot ??

What are your thoughts fellas ??

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Reply By: Maîneÿ . . .- Monday, Oct 19, 2009 at 10:26

Monday, Oct 19, 2009 at 10:26

only choice is put the regulator at the battery if you want it to work correctly

Maîneÿ . . .

AnswerID: 387707

Follow Up By: Gronk - Monday, Oct 19, 2009 at 13:31

Monday, Oct 19, 2009 at 13:31

Could you explain further please ??

As its a KK, getting the 14V (approx ?? ) inside the camper to the regulator would require some wiring and a plug of some sort ....

As its already got several merrit type plugs on the outside, I thought it would be easier to feed straight into the 12v supply of the batts ??

Panel would probably be 50 to 100 watt.....batts are 210a/h.....

FollowupID: 655287

Follow Up By: Maîneÿ . . .- Monday, Oct 19, 2009 at 18:25

Monday, Oct 19, 2009 at 18:25

Gronk,
You say "....batts are 210a/h....."
"batts" with an "S" so I will assume there is more than one 210ah battery??

With one or more 210ah battery I would use a 100+ Watt solar panel at least.

The reason you put the solar regulator at the battery (not the panel) is because it is much more efficient in that position and will be out of the weather too.

You need to run a cable from the solar panel to the battery, irrespective as to where you place the solar regulator, if you connect to one of the existing 'merrit plugs' what do you have to remove, which won't work anyway because it is disconnected?

Why not make it a dedicated solar panel cable for battery charging because it will be in operation all day ?

Maîneÿ . . .

FollowupID: 655331

Follow Up By: Member - Andrew (QLD) - Monday, Oct 19, 2009 at 19:02

Monday, Oct 19, 2009 at 19:02

Someone better tell Mr KK that it won't work ......

The KK has this exact setup as explained (just not up high) with the "12v" going into the anderson plug or merrit plug (there is also a solid plug on the back of the gullwing which is the preferred location).

See here:

http://www.kimberleykampers.com.au/index.php?item=energyaccessories

From that page:

Andrew

FollowupID: 655339

Follow Up By: Maîneÿ . . .- Monday, Oct 19, 2009 at 19:11

Monday, Oct 19, 2009 at 19:11

Andrew,
I have not said: " it won't work "

I only asked the question: if you connect to one of the existing 'merrit plugs' what do you have to remove ?

Maîneÿ . . .

FollowupID: 655342

Follow Up By: Member - Andrew (QLD) - Monday, Oct 19, 2009 at 19:27

Monday, Oct 19, 2009 at 19:27

Remove what?

Like i said, my KK has a solid merrit which is positioned to benefit a solar setup on the gullwing (been advised that this is what it is designed primarily for). They also have other merrit plugs for standard uses eg inside for fridge, 2 on side of camper for outdoor accessories, inside for charging, inside spare etc

Andrew

FollowupID: 655345

Follow Up By: Maîneÿ . . .- Monday, Oct 19, 2009 at 20:30

Monday, Oct 19, 2009 at 20:30

Gronk says: "As its a KK, getting the 14V inside the camper to the regulator would require some wiring and a plug of some sort ....
As its already got several merrit type *PLUGS* on the outside, I thought it would be easier to feed straight into the 12v supply of the batts ??"Image Could Not Be FoundThese are the "plugs" Gronk has mentioned are installed and which I've referred to that have to be removed to connect into the 12v system

Remember, the receptacle that holds the "plug" in place is a generally called a *socket* and it remains permantly installed, it's definitely not called a plug which is a portable item and it is removable.

Maîneÿ . . .

FollowupID: 655363

Follow Up By: Member - Andrew (QLD) - Monday, Oct 19, 2009 at 21:32

Monday, Oct 19, 2009 at 21:32

Accidental slip of the terminology....insert "socket" into the above statements and read as advised.

Andrew

FollowupID: 655382

Follow Up By: Maîneÿ . . .- Tuesday, Oct 20, 2009 at 09:17

Tuesday, Oct 20, 2009 at 09:17

You suggest and I also concur Gronk should have said: "As its already got several merrit type *sockets* on the outside, I thought it would be easier to feed straight into the 12v supply of the batts"
In that scenario I would have asked ' what is usually inserted into the socket or is the socket a spare and therefore empty? '
However he didn't, so I’ve replied to what he did say.

I would *never* install a merit plug or similar click in plug on the solar supply cable in the first place as it could be very ( repeat again-> very ) dangerous.

These are better plugs, if not the best plug for solar supply cables.Image Could Not Be FoundMaîneÿ . . .

FollowupID: 655438

Follow Up By: Lex M (Brisbane) - Tuesday, Oct 20, 2009 at 16:38

Tuesday, Oct 20, 2009 at 16:38

"I would *never* install a merit plug or similar click in plug on the solar supply cable in the first place as it could be very ( repeat again-> very ) dangerous. "

Would you like to explain the danger please.

FollowupID: 655501

Follow Up By: Maîneÿ . . .- Tuesday, Oct 20, 2009 at 17:02

Tuesday, Oct 20, 2009 at 17:02

Lex,

(a) it may short out
(b) the battery will no longer recieve any charge from the solar system

Maîneÿ . . .

FollowupID: 655507

Follow Up By: Lex M (Brisbane) - Tuesday, Oct 20, 2009 at 18:06

Tuesday, Oct 20, 2009 at 18:06

Neither of these things I would rate as dangerous.

"(a) it may short out."
Won't hurt the solar panel or the solar regulator.
That's how a shunt regulator regulates the output of the solar panel.
May generate a spark, that's about all

"(b) the battery will no longer receive any charge from the solar system"
Inconvenient if the battery goes flat. Don't rate it as dangerous.

FollowupID: 655519

Follow Up By: Lex M (Brisbane) - Tuesday, Oct 20, 2009 at 18:19

Tuesday, Oct 20, 2009 at 18:19

"These are better plugs, if not the best plug for solar supply cables."

That look like a Jaycar PS2014.
"2 Pin Line Female Microphone Connector"
Where have you seen a claim that it's waterproof?

FollowupID: 655520

Follow Up By: Maîneÿ . . .- Tuesday, Oct 20, 2009 at 19:59

Tuesday, Oct 20, 2009 at 19:59

Lex,
you consider a LIVE power cable that is capable of creating sparks while your driving, possibly for hours, is not dangerous ??

I use a similar type metal connector in roof installations, I use them because they are waterproof and will not shake free, which would then allow the positive cable to contact the vehicle roof and to spark etc.
My own solar connection has been in the roof since 1997, has done 300,000 Klm and have never had a problem.

They may be similar to those from jaycar, BUT they definately are waterproof and shake free proof too.

Maîneÿ . . .

FollowupID: 655540

Follow Up By: Maîneÿ . . .- Wednesday, Oct 21, 2009 at 00:27

Wednesday, Oct 21, 2009 at 00:27

Lex,
just looked up the jaycar PS2014 2 Pin Line Female Microphone Connector, I assure you it is definately NOT the same connector at all.
Agree it looks close but definately is not the same one as it is NOT waterproof.

Maîneÿ . . .

FollowupID: 655582

Follow Up By: Lex M (Brisbane) - Thursday, Oct 22, 2009 at 10:33

Thursday, Oct 22, 2009 at 10:33

"you consider a LIVE power cable that is capable of creating sparks while your driving, possibly for hours, is not dangerous ?? "

not as dangerous as driving with the solar panel on the top of a 3 metre pole.........

FollowupID: 655778

Follow Up By: Maîneÿ . . .- Thursday, Oct 22, 2009 at 11:03

Thursday, Oct 22, 2009 at 11:03

Lex,
I'm disappointed, just thought when I asked you a direct question you would have answered with a definitive 'yes or 'no' instead of simply avoiding the question?
Never mind I'm sure you wanted to say it would be very dangerous :-)

ps, Gronk may not want drive with the solar panel sitting on the pole 3 mtrs in the air, it will bend the pole

Maîneÿ . . .

FollowupID: 655782

Follow Up By: Lex M (Brisbane) - Thursday, Oct 22, 2009 at 14:27

Thursday, Oct 22, 2009 at 14:27

Sorry Maîneÿ

I asumed that this discussion was relating to the original question about putting a solar panel on a 3 metre pole and connecting it to a campervan.

I assumed (possibly wrongly) that the vehicle would not be moving at the time.

It would appear you assumed (rightly or wrongly) by your question
"you consider a LIVE power cable that is capable of creating sparks while your driving, possibly for hours, is not dangerous ?? "
that the vehicle would be being driven with a solar panel mounted on a 3 metre pole.

I stand by my answer, the danger from that sparking plug pales into insignificance compared to the danger and illegality of driving with a solar panel on a 3 metre pole.

FollowupID: 655805

Follow Up By: Maîneÿ . . .- Thursday, Oct 22, 2009 at 23:29

Thursday, Oct 22, 2009 at 23:29

Lex,
here we go again, changing the parameters

I stated: (a) it may short out

I asked you the question "do you consider a LIVE power cable that is capable of creating sparks while your driving, possibly for hours, is not dangerous ?? "

Remember we are talking about the type of plug that is safest and you have said a *live* cable is not dangerous, however I believe it is.

In reply you posted:
Neither of these things I would rate as dangerous. it may short out ........
May generate a spark, that's about all "
Would you drive with a *live* cable rubbing against a body panel ?

Maîneÿ . . .

FollowupID: 655930

Follow Up By: Lex M (Brisbane) - Friday, Oct 23, 2009 at 09:12

Friday, Oct 23, 2009 at 09:12

You changed the parameters from a solar panel on a 3 metre pole to one driving down the road.

FollowupID: 655962

Follow Up By: Maîneÿ . . .- Friday, Oct 23, 2009 at 09:32

Friday, Oct 23, 2009 at 09:32

Lex,
Read this: "I would *never* install a merit plug or similar click in plug on the solar supply cable in the first place as it could be very ( repeat again-> very ) dangerous"

This is the point you are refusing to admit exists and elaborate on.
It does not mention solar PANEL, only a solar panel connection using a merit *PLUG*

As can be clearly read, you have said an *active* power cable is not dangerous when it comes out of the merit socket while travelling because it will only spark.

If you believe a loose *active* power cable that *sparks* is not dangerous then you must be correct :-))

Maîneÿ . . .

FollowupID: 655966

Reply By: Lex M (Brisbane) - Monday, Oct 19, 2009 at 10:42

Monday, Oct 19, 2009 at 10:42

I'd be concerned about the regulator being weather proof. Theoretically it would be less efficient, but unless your using a very large panel it would make little practical difference.

AnswerID: 387709

Reply By: Member -Signman - Monday, Oct 19, 2009 at 10:54

Monday, Oct 19, 2009 at 10:54

What size panel?? Does it 'need' a regulator ??

AnswerID: 387710

Follow Up By: Bob of KAOS - Monday, Oct 19, 2009 at 18:53

Monday, Oct 19, 2009 at 18:53

The panel generates about 17 V in full sunlight. Without a regulator you will fry your battery.

If you are going to experience a voltage drop of, say, 2 V due to the length of wire, I'd reckon it would be better to drop from 17V (at the panel) to 15 V (at the input to the regulator), and then let the regulator produce a controlled 12.8 V or whatever, rather than regulate to 12.8 near the panel, and then drop to 10.8 before it reaches the battery.

But I'm not a solar panel guru so that thinking could be way off the mark.

FollowupID: 655337

Follow Up By: Maîneÿ . . .- Monday, Oct 19, 2009 at 19:03

Monday, Oct 19, 2009 at 19:03

Yes, that's correct ...

your not a solar panel guru and " that thinking could be way off the mark " ha ha ha

I agree with you :-)

Maîneÿ . . .

FollowupID: 655340

Follow Up By: Member - Mike DID - Monday, Oct 19, 2009 at 19:41

Monday, Oct 19, 2009 at 19:41

"panel generates about 17 V in full sunlight. Without a regulator you will fry your battery. "

- it will only generate 17 volts into an open circuit. Connect to a 12 volt battery and it'll drop to 12-14 volts. Connect it to a 6 volt battery and it'll drop to 6-7 volts.

FollowupID: 655348

Follow Up By: Member -Signman - Tuesday, Oct 20, 2009 at 09:09

Tuesday, Oct 20, 2009 at 09:09

Geez there's some 'experts' on this Forum !!
Bob, your comment that "without a regulator you will fry your battery" ??
Where did that claim come from ??
My inquiry was as to what 'size' the panel is. ie- Waht is the 'output'..this is normally the wattage...not the voltage !!
Easy to run (say) a 10w panel direct to a battery without a regulator- without no damage to any battery.

FollowupID: 655434

Follow Up By: Nomadic Navara - Tuesday, Oct 20, 2009 at 18:52

Tuesday, Oct 20, 2009 at 18:52

Solar cells will fry batteries without a regulator. In a portable use like this one It may not happen as there is a fridge load on the battery. The last little bit of being fully charged may never be achieved which will save the battery.

However without a constant load, frying of the batteries is quite common. The voltage of the system may be around 14 - 14.5 V whilst the battery is going through the charging stage. When the battery becomes fully charged and the current drops, the system voltage will rise to over 15 V. This is when the battery commences to boil dry.

The solar panels we use to charge batteries with modest cost regulators have 36 cells in them. Back in the 70s there were panels built with 32 cells that were marketed as suitable for maintaining batteries without having to use a regulator.. These were OK if you used a small enough panel and recharged the batteries with a mains powered charger. Some users attempted to use larger panels to recharge batteries - these proved unsuitable for recharging and tended to destroy the batteries.

PeterD

PeterD
Retired radio and electronics technician

Lifetime Member
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FollowupID: 655525

Follow Up By: Bob of KAOS - Tuesday, Oct 20, 2009 at 22:44

Tuesday, Oct 20, 2009 at 22:44

Mike,

While the battery is charging and drawing current it will keep the voltage down. Once it is charged, the resistance drops and the voltage across its terminal will rise to the full 17V.

Can't be good for the battery.

Signman,

even with a low power panel, I reckon you'd have early battery failure if you left it connected indefinitely, it would just take longer (about 8 times longer than if you had an 80W panel). Wattage is inextricably linked to voltage. It is meaningless to consider one without the other. Wattage(power) = Voltage times Current.

Go ahead and do it without a regulator.

FollowupID: 655574

Reply By: Mandrake - Monday, Oct 19, 2009 at 15:24

Monday, Oct 19, 2009 at 15:24

I have to ask - Why on a 3m high pole ?

Cheers

Mandrake

AnswerID: 387740

Follow Up By: Boobook2 - Monday, Oct 19, 2009 at 16:28

Monday, Oct 19, 2009 at 16:28

Closer to the sun.

FollowupID: 655306

Follow Up By: Maîneÿ . . .- Monday, Oct 19, 2009 at 19:14

Monday, Oct 19, 2009 at 19:14

maybe he did not have a hacksaw to cut it off ??

Maîneÿ . . .

FollowupID: 655343

Follow Up By: Mandrake - Monday, Oct 19, 2009 at 20:18

Monday, Oct 19, 2009 at 20:18

I'd be a bit concerned having a 100 watt panel 3 metres up in the air - Lots of wind vibration up in the higher altitudes !! Even a 50 watter is big enough to
cause problems ..
Keep em on the roof or on the ground as in the photo above ..
Pop the reg under cover near the battery and open a tinny !!

My 20 cents worth ..

Mandrake - Solar is Magic too !

FollowupID: 655359

Reply By: Boobook2 - Monday, Oct 19, 2009 at 16:43

Monday, Oct 19, 2009 at 16:43

It would be better next to the battery but provided all the wiring is reasonable it will work. If you put it where the cable plugs into the camper it will be best. It may take a little longer ( 1/2 hour) to charge fully, that's all. You will only get about 5 A or so out of a 100W panel so the voltage drop won't be extreme. Avoid putting the regulator at the top of the cable up the pole if you can.

If you are charging at 5A with the regulator 2m from the battery and 6mm sq cable you will get about a .15V drop. At 2A the drop will be down to .06V approx. If it was at the top of the pole use 18mm sq cable at least.

AnswerID: 387751

Reply By: Member - Mike DID - Monday, Oct 19, 2009 at 19:38

Monday, Oct 19, 2009 at 19:38

The Regulator may have separate connections for Battery and Load - if so, you would need to run two pairs of wires down from the Panel - at night Load current would flow from Battery up to the Regulator, then down to the Loads !

AnswerID: 387774

Reply By: Gronk - Tuesday, Oct 20, 2009 at 01:31

Tuesday, Oct 20, 2009 at 01:31

Sorry for the wrong terminology........they are merrit type "sockets" on the side of the KK ( narva actually )......I have 5 in total on the outside of the camper and only one gets any sort of use ...the anderson plug at the front drawbar gets used to power the fridge which is in the back of the 4x4...

The batts are 6 x 35a/h which = 210a/h.........

Why on a pole ?? just thought it would be a good idea......that way I could attach it to the trailer ( and also lock it ) on a bracket already there ( reciever for a boat loader ) and it would need to be approx 3M to clear the tent section when erected ( may only need to be 2M )

Now I'm led to believe a good regulator is like a good 3 stage charger ??
But rather than have the regulator permanately connected ( and powered all the time, even when not needed ), I thought having the regulator ( and panel ) as a unit would be less work ( but understand voltage drop may be an issue )

Now if I had the panel on a pole ( or even sitting on the ground ) feeding the regulator 3M ( or 5M ) away which then fed straight into a merrit socket....would that be any different to the Xantrex charger (10A ) inside the KK that feeds into a merrit socket ( both would be approx 2M away from the batts )??

AnswerID: 387829

Follow Up By: Maîneÿ . . .- Tuesday, Oct 20, 2009 at 09:27

Tuesday, Oct 20, 2009 at 09:27

Gronk, forget the merit plug idea, put the panel in the air so it can't be stolen easily and will clear the tent, make it weather proof and make sure it will NOT swing around too, but DEFINATELY put the solar regulator adjacent to the battery system for the reasons stated above.
Yes a *good* solar regulator is the same or better than most 3 stage chargers.

Maîneÿ . . .

FollowupID: 655440

Follow Up By: Gronk - Tuesday, Oct 20, 2009 at 10:12

Tuesday, Oct 20, 2009 at 10:12

Forget the merrit plug idea ??

Mainey, how would you get the power from the panel into the CT and onto the regulator ??.......an anderson plug would be the obvious choice, but don't like the asthetics of one on the exterior of the KK...

What sort of current draw does the average regulator consume ?? ( obviously only worried about it when no panel connected )

Do I have to think about rewiring the battery setup to accomodate a regulator or is it as simple as a charger.......an input ( from a panel ) and a load ( which would be 2 wires going straight to the batteries )

Thanks for any answers to the many questions I'm coming up with .....

FollowupID: 655452

Follow Up By: Maîneÿ . . .- Tuesday, Oct 20, 2009 at 13:54

Tuesday, Oct 20, 2009 at 13:54

Gronk,
Yes forget the merrit plug, look at reply 8 of 8 above.

The plug I nominated (above) will do same as an Anderson plug but is a secure plug

"What sort of current draw does the average regulator consume ??"
* . . depends on the unit you choose, mine is ~12 mA (next to nothing)
some are nil, but they lack many of the recomended benefits available

"Do I have to think about rewiring the battery setup to accomodate a regulator or is it as simple as a charger"
* . . Simple, just an input from panel and an output to battery
Run your accessories direct from the solar regulator - not battery.

Maîneÿ . . .

FollowupID: 655482

Follow Up By: Gronk - Tuesday, Oct 20, 2009 at 14:29

Tuesday, Oct 20, 2009 at 14:29

When you say run the accs direct from the regulator.......??.....the KK is already setup with wiring from the batts to all things 12V ( inside and out..merrit sockets )....can't I just use the regulator as an input to the batts from the panel only and leave everything else the same ??

Why do you need a secure plug ?? is it no good if the plug got accidently knocked out ??

FollowupID: 655486

Follow Up By: Maîneÿ . . .- Tuesday, Oct 20, 2009 at 16:56

Tuesday, Oct 20, 2009 at 16:56

Gronk,
You need a secure plug because the "plug" is LIVE @ ~18v and ~5 Amps :-)

After reading your last post I now believe it's time you took it somewhere and had a profesional 12v specialist do some rewiring for you

Maîneÿ . . .

FollowupID: 655505

Follow Up By: Lex M (Brisbane) - Tuesday, Oct 20, 2009 at 18:32

Tuesday, Oct 20, 2009 at 18:32

"Do I have to think about rewiring the battery setup to accommodate a regulator or is it as simple as a charger"

It's as simple as a charger.

"* . . Simple, just an input from panel and an output to battery
Run your accessories direct from the solar regulator - not battery. "

Running from the regulator is only necessary if the regulator has "state of charge indication" that you want to use, or if you want to use the regulator to control the discharge of the battery and switch things off when the battery is low. Assume you've been doing without that functionality so it's up to you if you need the complexity.

Why do you need a secure plug ?? is it no good if the plug got accidentally knocked out ??
Won't charge will it. :-)

FollowupID: 655522

Follow Up By: oldtrack123 - Tuesday, Oct 20, 2009 at 21:15

Tuesday, Oct 20, 2009 at 21:15

Hi
The reg should be as near as possible to the battery so it senses actual battery voltage [not battery plus voltage drop in cables, connectors,etc]
This ensures the reg is doing its job & responding to "BATTERY "voltage.
The cables need to be the correct size to minimise voltage drop no matter where you have the reg.

FollowupID: 655550

Follow Up By: Gronk - Wednesday, Oct 21, 2009 at 01:04

Wednesday, Oct 21, 2009 at 01:04

Thanks all for your input...

I only need a regulator because its needed with a ( approx ) 100W panel....I don't need one for checking SOC or anything else and if it was near the batts, I wouldn't be able to see it anyway ( under the bed on a KK )

Even though between the 2 of us,( meaning no kids etc ), I couldn't see a merrit style plug being a problem ( as a couple of them are out of the way, so knocking them would be very hard ), I understand if I was to wire in a seperate feed to a regulator, then a secure plug would be best...

FollowupID: 655588

Reply By: Member - Malcolm (Townsville) - Wednesday, Oct 21, 2009 at 10:43

Wednesday, Oct 21, 2009 at 10:43

Gronk

I have KK LE with Platinum upgrades.

According to KK docs, the Solar Panel is plugged in behind the Gullwing on the kitchen side. The "Female Narva"

Image Could Not Be Found

(as referred to by KK), according to the official KK wiring diagram, is then wired back to the batteries througha 15A fuse (inside Gullwing box) and a 30A fuse at the batteries.

A shunt is used to measure current flow to the meter (if installed). See Photo ....

Image Could Not Be Found

I have two 90W panels (one plugs into the other with about 5 metres of cable back to the regulator). I have also plugged in, with no regulator, and watched the KK meter to see when the batteries are fully charged. I finished up using an e-solar K?24 (with its own display panel) that has about 600mm of cable to plug into the Narva Socket back to the batteries. ( 6 x 35AHr ).

I made up a couple of aluminium "carriers" for the top of the camper. I can either have the solar panels facing up or down - depends if I want to charge the batteries. With an Anderson plug back to the dual batteries on the car I think I have most charging options covered. (NOT using generators).

Malcolm

P.S. I would post the wiring diagram EXCEPT KK have a copyright notice on it :-(

living the 'good life'

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AnswerID: 388022

Follow Up By: Gronk - Wednesday, Oct 21, 2009 at 11:45

Wednesday, Oct 21, 2009 at 11:45

Thanks for that Malcolm....I have a KK LE with all the narva sockets as well......but instead of a capacity meter I only have a small LCD voltmeter..

I know about the solar setup with the KK's, but was asking these questions to see if anyone could find any major drawbacks with their way of running it all..

I know a few have said to mount the regulator close to the batts, and from a voltage drop perspective, its a good idea, but access to the batts is tight and the regulator would be out of view as well...hence the questions about doing basically what KK do.....running the panel into an outside stored ( or mounted ) regulator and running that into one of the narva sockets ( or the one "dedicated " for it) ..

Did you have enough room to mount them on top of the gullwing, or on top of the hard floor ??

And where do you put the regulator when using the solar ??

FollowupID: 655631

Follow Up By: Member - Malcolm (Townsville) - Saturday, Oct 24, 2009 at 10:25

Saturday, Oct 24, 2009 at 10:25

Gronk

Something funny here ..... I replied to this last Wednesday with a few photos of my setup on the KK. Did you see it? Maybe it turned into vapourware.

If you want to follow up I'll post again.

Malcolm