Ideal Outback Tourer - Your Dream Car

Submitted: Saturday, Dec 12, 2009 at 09:56
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I'm starting to think about what might be the ideal vehicle for my next outback tourer. It won't need to double as my daily drive. It needs to be frugal with fuel. It needs to be able to be knocked about, scratched, dented, etc without me worrying about its resale value. The interior needs to be pretty spartan so it can be easily cleaned (if not hosed out).

My last vehicle, a Discovery, was virtually driven from the showroom floor and trashed. The interior was largely removed. Additions were made. Suspension modified. The cloth seats became stained with diesel, red dirt and various other fluids. The exterior is deeply scratched and has multiple dings. The result is that as a trade-in it would worth very little despite having been maintained mechanically, and only having 130,000 km on it.

So the next vehicle will be more purpose designed, rather than adapted for the job.

I've liked the idea of the older Hummers, but they are ruled out by their motors and prices.

I like the idea of a Troopy, but the V8 diesel is thirsty, low on power and torque (151kW/430Nm) and only comes with manual transmission.

The Defender would also suit, but is again limited by its engine (90kW/360Nm) in manual only.

The sedan siblings of the above two (Discovery 4 and 200 Series LC) have ideal engines: Disco 3.0 TDV6 180kW/600Nm, Toyo 4.5 Twin turbo 195kW/650nM, and both have auto transmission. However, their bodies are too car like for the trashing I will be handing them. In addition, I think the Disco would need replacement 16" wheels.

So my dream car would be a Hummer with the TDV6 motor.

Its a pity Toyota or Land Rover don't offer offer their best engines and gear boxes in the Troopy/Defender lines. If they did, I'd be out there tomorrow.

So for the time being, I'll get some nice canvas seat covers and stick with the hammered Disco.

I wonder what others would have as their dream car?
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Reply By: Horacehighroller - Saturday, Dec 12, 2009 at 10:51

Saturday, Dec 12, 2009 at 10:51
I find it hard to think that the Troopy is underpowered with the V8.
(But look at what I an driving.)

The option of constant 4 x 4 with the 5 speed auto (which had been worked over by Wholesale Automatics) would be nice.

"No affiliation yada yada!!"

Peter
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Follow Up By: Member - Roachie (SA) - Saturday, Dec 12, 2009 at 11:30

Saturday, Dec 12, 2009 at 11:30
I tend to agree with peter's comments regarding 151kW and 430nm not being enough power???? Although I haven't driven one of these vehicles, I would have to think that they are probably the most powerful 4x4 available at the moment.....in the "agricultural" category that you are referring to as being the type you are seeking.

In any case, could the 4.5TD single turbo in the troopy, be "chipped" and/or have the turbo system changed to more closely mirror the performance of the 200 series? Surely you would be starting with the same basic engine, so I would have thought a few well-made adjustments would get the performance up a bit higher if you deemed that to be really necessary.

If 151kW is not powerful enough for you, then no stock vehicle I can think of will fit your criteria.

What about a VW Toureg (V10 turbo diesel with about 300kw and 800nm) engine in an OKA??? hahahaha

Good luck,

Roachie
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Follow Up By: Member - David G (WA) - Saturday, Dec 12, 2009 at 12:49

Saturday, Dec 12, 2009 at 12:49
youve given me a hot flush roachie lol
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Follow Up By: Geoff (Newcastle, NSW) - Saturday, Dec 12, 2009 at 13:32

Saturday, Dec 12, 2009 at 13:32
Roachie,
I may well be wrong here but my take on upping the ante on the diesel V8 in the 76, 78 & 79 Series Landcruisers is the manual gearbox must be getting close to its maximum torque limit.

The reason I say that is because the 200 Series has twin turbo's and is automatic only. Surely not absolutely every 200 Series owner would if given the choice take an auto.

The 76, 78 & 79 Series are single turbo and manuals. They also have the same manual box as my 78 Series RV with the factory TD6.

At some point Toyota must reach the maximum safe limit of the gearbox!

Geoff

Geoff,

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Follow Up By: Bob of KAOS - Saturday, Dec 12, 2009 at 16:39

Saturday, Dec 12, 2009 at 16:39
If 151 kW is enough, why did they boost it to 195 in the cruiser? Surely what's good for the goose is good for the gander?
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Follow Up By: Member -Tukka (WA) - Sunday, Dec 13, 2009 at 15:35

Sunday, Dec 13, 2009 at 15:35
Something is wrong there if you think the new Cruiser doesnt have enough power. i drive one everyday at work and when off road i almost think it has too much!!

Cant go wrong with the work mate troopie, you could hose that out for sure


Cheers
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Reply By: Ozhumvee - Saturday, Dec 12, 2009 at 10:59

Saturday, Dec 12, 2009 at 10:59
Bob
Can recommend the older Hummers (Humvee's and H1's) pretty much bulletproof off road, with a few mods can be a comfortable long distance traveller. The engine and drivetrain is pretty indestructable as long as like anything it is serviced regularly. They are a hands on type vehicle with owner maintenance and servicing required, parts are cheap and with the alloy body rust isn't a problem.
The other biggie is that they stay under GVM even when heavily laden for extended cross country trips.
The engines in the H1's get a bad rap due to the PCM modules being mounted in the engine V subject to the engine heat and vibration once they are relocated away from there they give no problems. No problems with crook fuel etc like all these modern common rail engines either.
Peter
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Follow Up By: Ozhumvee - Saturday, Dec 12, 2009 at 13:33

Saturday, Dec 12, 2009 at 13:33
The cummins engines are a popular swap for the older Hummers, you need about a 3" body lift as the six is way taller than the V8 and they come with Alison auto and transfer case. Quite a few have been done in the US, buy a wrecked/rolled Dodge ram 4x4 and swap the entire engine and trans in.
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Reply By: Member - Fred B (NT) - Saturday, Dec 12, 2009 at 11:04

Saturday, Dec 12, 2009 at 11:04
Bob,
go for a 62EJ Holden wagon. Check out the video in thread 74319. You can hose it out any time you want, and don't have to worry about resale value... lol...!
regards
Fred B
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Reply By: Member - Doug T (NT) - Saturday, Dec 12, 2009 at 12:16

Saturday, Dec 12, 2009 at 12:16
You can't kill these things...

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Follow Up By: Kumunara (NT) - Saturday, Dec 12, 2009 at 15:03

Saturday, Dec 12, 2009 at 15:03
Doug


I once was the proud owner of a 73 FJ45. 4WD performance brilliant!!!

They are hard to kill - mine just rusted away.

The only problem I had was the need to visit a Chiropracter after a drive.



Tjilpi
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Follow Up By: Bob of KAOS - Saturday, Dec 12, 2009 at 22:57

Saturday, Dec 12, 2009 at 22:57
Doug

I said dream vehicle - not dream time vehicle :-)

Bob
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Follow Up By: Member - Russnic [NZ] - Monday, Dec 14, 2009 at 11:03

Monday, Dec 14, 2009 at 11:03
Got one of those sitting in the shed, tray deck with the spray gear on, trouble is the boys went to Uni and now don't want too know to how or how use the gear. my metallic knees means I can't get the foot on the clutch. for old times sake 2-3 times a year give the battery a boost and that old straight six fires up
The rest is just slowly rusting away.
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Reply By: Member - Mark E (VIC) - Saturday, Dec 12, 2009 at 12:31

Saturday, Dec 12, 2009 at 12:31
I love my HZJ105 as a touring vehicle, though it has the following issues:

Weak gearbox for towing or any sort of 'power-up'.
Weak front diff (can be fixed with solid pinion spacer and diff lock)
Underpowered engine, especially for any sort of towing.

If $$ were no option, I would do the following:

* Purchase a 1HD-FT 24 valve direct injection turbo engine and H150/H151 gearbox from an 80 series wreck, get both rebuilt to new specs, do some turbo and fuel setting tweaks, fit an intercooler and transplant these into the 105. The reason for this engine is that it has no electronics to go wrong or to stuff up my HF radio transmissions and is virtually a straight swap into the 105 series. They go nearly as well as the 1HD-FTE, but are simpler. I have estimated the cost to be below that of fitting an aftermarket turbo (if you do it properly, after the sale of the leftover bits and pieces).

* Fix the front diff issues and fit front and rear diff locks.

* Fit aftermarket seats, console and any other things required for comfort touring.

* Fit cruise control

* Upgrade GVM to reasonable specs for long distance touring

* Slight increase in tyre rolling diameter (285/75x16)

Other than these things I am very happy with it as a tourer.


I have looked at and driven the V8 76 series and whilst it had heaps more grunt than the 105, it is nowhere near as comfortable or quiet. Way overpriced for what is included in my opinion. Just couldn't go back to leaf springs again.

Happy dreaming.

Mark
AnswerID: 394762

Reply By: Member - Doug T (NT) - Saturday, Dec 12, 2009 at 12:31

Saturday, Dec 12, 2009 at 12:31
There was a time when I would have gone for the Hummer but not with a petrol engine, My choice now would have to be the Dodge Ram with a Cummins Engine, and the looks of it are appealing too, the specs are very impressive, and like Toyota, there's a Cummins service in most large towns.

Dodge Ram

CUMMINS

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Reply By: Member - Wamuranman - Saturday, Dec 12, 2009 at 12:56

Saturday, Dec 12, 2009 at 12:56
HI Bob,

You asked what my “dream vehicle “ would be.

Mine would without hesitation be the newly released in Australia (last month I think) 6 litre twin turbo DIESEL V12 Audi Q7. It develops 368 Kw and 1000 Nm (that’s almost 495 HP to you truckies – same as some prime movers!). This diesel is derived from the V12 one in the R10 that has won Le Mons the past 3 years.
But for what it is – its reasonably economical - claimed 11.9 litres per 100Km.
The Q7 is permanent 4x4 (quattro drive) and while it wouldn’t go rock hopping it would be OK for around Oz and on gravel roads.
What an awesome vehicle it would be to drive – and how would it sound with a twin 3” exhaust from Beaudesert Exhausts ?
Other than some specialist classical music (Handel for example) IMHO there is no greater sound to the human ear than the sound of a powerful diesel motor under full throttle….goosebumbs….
The Europeans are streets ahead of the Japanese in automotive diesel technology and Audi diesels are the best of the best in my view.
Behind it I would have a new Vista van.
All I need is about $300K for the combination. Good value really when you think about it…

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Follow Up By: Bob of KAOS - Saturday, Dec 12, 2009 at 23:00

Saturday, Dec 12, 2009 at 23:00
Wamuranman

I'll come and help you hose it out after your first off road jaunt. Can you specify vinyl seats and lino instead of carpet?

Bob
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Reply By: Outbacktourer - Saturday, Dec 12, 2009 at 14:59

Saturday, Dec 12, 2009 at 14:59
Very good question Bob,

What we need is Toyota or Nissan to build a defender style dual cab ute with a decent engine (180-200kw/500-600Nm) and 6 speed Auto.

Because I couldn't buy one of these I did the stretch on my 3.0Di Patrol and until someone comes up with the above it will have to do.
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Follow Up By: On Patrol & TONI - Saturday, Dec 12, 2009 at 15:26

Saturday, Dec 12, 2009 at 15:26
OBT
your car with a 1hd-fte slotted into it would be as close to pefect as anyone would get.
LOL Colin.
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Follow Up By: Outbacktourer - Saturday, Dec 12, 2009 at 15:48

Saturday, Dec 12, 2009 at 15:48
Agreed. I followed your project with interest, should 'you know what' happen then it could be in for an upgrade. May have to be buried with it then!

OT
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Follow Up By: On Patrol & TONI - Saturday, Dec 12, 2009 at 16:10

Saturday, Dec 12, 2009 at 16:10
OT
I want to be buried with mine, letting Er Indoors have it would be like strawberries to swine.

If she sees this I will be using it as a coffin, LOL.
Colin.
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Follow Up By: Bob of KAOS - Sunday, Dec 13, 2009 at 17:36

Sunday, Dec 13, 2009 at 17:36
Good answer OBT.

So much of what is available is a compromise.

I think there is a big opening for a serious dedicated outback tourer along the long lines you suggest.

Hello Mr Nissan/toyota/LR are you listening?
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Reply By: Member - lyndon NT - Saturday, Dec 12, 2009 at 15:21

Saturday, Dec 12, 2009 at 15:21
A bit of a load of rubbish I think, if a T/d V8 Troopy or 4 door cruiser is under powered! I have a D'tronic in my TD 6 Troopy and I’m guessing it will get up to about 165km/hr or so, a chipped V8, 175-185 ?
I just can't agree that these vehicles are underpowered! What do you intend to do with it that would rate them as underpowered?
Have you seen the STUPID Gall boys with their Kedron’s and the Cruiser?

Regards Lyndon
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Follow Up By: Bob of KAOS - Saturday, Dec 12, 2009 at 16:36

Saturday, Dec 12, 2009 at 16:36
I guess I should have been clearer.

If other manufacturers can get similar figures from a 3.0 L V6, then why should you troopy drivers have to lug a stonking V8 around to get the same performance. The cruiser isn't underpowered with 195kW from a 4.5 L V8. The troopy with 151 kW from the same size donk is.
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Follow Up By: Richard Kovac - Saturday, Dec 12, 2009 at 21:52

Saturday, Dec 12, 2009 at 21:52
Bob Hi,
do you under stand how you get horse power or kW's ?

Cheers

Richard
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Follow Up By: Madfisher - Saturday, Dec 12, 2009 at 21:57

Saturday, Dec 12, 2009 at 21:57
Bob like truck engines the troopy engine is detuned in the interests of engine and driveline longlevity. Thats why our 5.2 l Isuzu truck motors are governed to 3000rpm and only put out 155hp.
Cheers Pete
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Follow Up By: Bob of KAOS - Saturday, Dec 12, 2009 at 22:48

Saturday, Dec 12, 2009 at 22:48
All I'm asking is that Toyota and Land Rover put better engines and gear boxes in their Troopies and Defenders.

The Troopy engine is too big, and inefficient, and the Defender engine is too small. And I like auto transmissions.

In Toyota's case even the engine out of a Prado with its lighter weight and auto transmission would be more attractive to some buyers. In LR's case the current Defender motor is a 2.4 L 90 kW but creditable 360Nm dog. Why not drop either the 2.7 or 3.0 L TDV6 into it?

Richard, my knowledge of thermodynamics and the theory of the internal combustion engine is pretty crude, but I guess it could be stated as follows. How much power you get is determined by how much fuel you can burn, and how efficiently you convert the resultant heat into torque at the driven wheels. Major determinants are the swept volume, engine revolutions, turbo/super charging the air entering the engine (and using otherwise wasted exhaust gas energy to do that). Also important are metering the fuel efficiently, ensuring air can get into the combustion chamber and exhaust gas can get out easily, and that friction losses are kept to a minimum. Do I pass?

Bob
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Follow Up By: Richard Kovac - Saturday, Dec 12, 2009 at 23:09

Saturday, Dec 12, 2009 at 23:09
Sorry Bob, it wasn't a test.

In my world (Hydraulics)

Work = force times distance
Power = work divided by time

as in these small engines with all the power have little torque but heaps of power, because they spin fast. If the 4.5 TD out of the Troopy spun as fast it's power would increase.

Fuel, turbos, supercharges only make more force the formula is proportional, ie. change one part another part has to change the opposite way.

I have read on this site to many times, people getting confused about Power, stating that a petrol engine has more power than a certain diesel, but most of us don't drive at 6000 rpm.

horse power was invented by James Watt to sell he's steam engine, he basically made up a fugue and doubled it.. ;-)

But your answer was good..

Cheers

Richard
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Reply By: Willem - Saturday, Dec 12, 2009 at 21:36

Saturday, Dec 12, 2009 at 21:36
Nissan GQ diesel


Unbreakable

Stick a supercharger on it

With your money you could buy 10 of them for the price of one of those flash 4bies the others mention and that should see you out.



LOL
AnswerID: 394824

Follow Up By: Bob of KAOS - Saturday, Dec 12, 2009 at 23:10

Saturday, Dec 12, 2009 at 23:10
Ha ha Willem. My 4B is a decrepit veteran of some merciless hammerings over six years. My other car is nearly nine years old.

I love that photo - is that a short cut to the Gobi desert you've found? (I do know where it really is)

Bob
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Reply By: Member - Russnic [NZ] - Sunday, Dec 13, 2009 at 05:46

Sunday, Dec 13, 2009 at 05:46
Hi Bob
I have my dream truck
Check out the photo.
You have a few things wrong about the Troopy,
I don't know why you would need more power, it is low rev torque that counts in a genuine 4WD, just tick along at 12-1400 revs put the foot down if needed suddenly, and you get all the response you need.
Thirsty? only if you thrash it on a highway, but then most genuine 4WD would be.
The only improvement I would make would be to up grade the shocks, after 600ks of gibber and corrugations the factory models get tired, give them a rest for an hour or so, they will revive.
I was at Birdsville getting the oil changed in the front diff, (new ARB diff-locks).
While I was waiting the Mechanic was fitting OME shocks onto a local tray-back.
He opened a carton of shocks and got out a set of OME shocks, when I asked are they any good, he said all the locals use them, I guess he was right as 4 cartons had just arrived in. Each carton would have held 10 or a dozen sets of shocks. So I guess that will be the way to go.
Any bigger wider vehicle you will have problems on some tracks with trees, overhanging branches, wider wheel track and the like.
Horses for courses I suppose.
AnswerID: 394842

Follow Up By: Crackles - Sunday, Dec 13, 2009 at 15:12

Sunday, Dec 13, 2009 at 15:12
As a touring vehicle Russ, I agree the V8 Troopy is hard to beat or a tray back with camper for that matter as well.
"got out a set of OME shocks, when I asked are they any good, he said all the locals use them"
Maybe if the locals were fitting a better quality shock there would only be one carton not four ;-) If Birdsville Auto are an ARB reseller then quite possibly OME would be the only brand available. For what ever reasons they still are the worst performing shock of any brand on outback trips I've been on. (Leaks/breakages/fading) This year one guy pulled his top of the range LTR's off after only 400km of rough travel. Very dissapointed.

Cheers Craig.............
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Follow Up By: Member - Russnic [NZ] - Sunday, Dec 13, 2009 at 15:35

Sunday, Dec 13, 2009 at 15:35
Thats interesting Crackles.
I don't think there was any affiliation with ARB though the mechanic said he had worked with ARB, in Brisbane I think.
The shocks he took off were battered to death with the Gibber stones, they looked as though they might have been OME, bit hard to tell by the state of them.
I am open to recommendations, what would you suggest and what are your affiliation's?.
Perhaps they all do the same after 600ks of bad road, I do know the last 100-150 ks always seem to be the worst.
When you stop and climb in the back it is a bit like standing up in a dinghy, an hour later or so when the oil cools it is quite stable again.
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Follow Up By: Crackles - Sunday, Dec 13, 2009 at 21:30

Sunday, Dec 13, 2009 at 21:30
From my observations in the outback & speaking to various "experts" in the industry (Including the techs at ARB's shock testing facility), one's that I'd recommend at the moment are Procomp for a cheap big bore unit, Koni for long life & Bilstein for a firmer high performance. If moneys no object then Fox shocks are possibly one of the best. No associations.
Cheers Craig................
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Reply By: Bob of KAOS - Sunday, Dec 13, 2009 at 17:40

Sunday, Dec 13, 2009 at 17:40
The other feature I would add would be double rear wheels: either side by side or better still, in series (like a train bogey).

This would reduce the load on each rear tyre, and in the case of 'in series', smooth corrugations.
AnswerID: 394908

Follow Up By: Member - Russnic [NZ] - Sunday, Dec 13, 2009 at 17:52

Sunday, Dec 13, 2009 at 17:52
yeah right,
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Reply By: westozal - Sunday, Dec 13, 2009 at 22:57

Sunday, Dec 13, 2009 at 22:57
Hi,
Lyndon I actually don't agree with your description of the Gall Boys as being stupid.
Adventurous yes, I find there DVD's quite entertaining personally.
Regards AL.
AnswerID: 394951

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