Power set-up for new vehicle

Submitted: Wednesday, Dec 30, 2009 at 09:06

ThreadID: 74739 Views:4045 Replies:8 FollowUps:16

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Battery Power

In this article we explain why you might need an additional power source independent of the starting battery installed into your vehicle and we look in detail at types of batteries,

Silkwood

I'm in the process of setting up a Delica for camping/fishing trips etc. For the past seven years I've had a Surf set up which, while okay, had a few shortcomings. This time I want to get it right. I know there are a hundred different systems and a thousand different opinions, but I'm not trying to set up a bun fight. I've done the searches, read the reviews and now.. I'm confused. Is it possible to get some suggestions even if, no, preferably IF they disagree, without everyone getting into P....ng contests? If you disagree can you please just say so, without name calling or dragging your "considerable experience" into play? I know this sounds like a diatribe rather than a pre-emptory statement but I think if we can get some simple, opinions without trying to find "the best" solution (which we all know doesn't exist) then many like myself (who know very little) can benefit.

Right, now I've got that off my chest... I already have a fridge (no I'm not going to say which one, though it is a bit of a power-hog!) and two Unisolar 32W Amorphous panels. I want to add to them (probably two 50W mono panels offered by a member). I am presuming therefore I'll need a controller which best handles this output.

I also want to set up a battery system. At the moment the vehicle has 1 main wet cell battery for starting. I would like 1 x around 100aH deep cycle as a main "recreatiional" power source, and possibly a second (say) 80aH as a removable back-up for longer trips. So I'm going to need some type of isolating system and some way of controlling the charging. What are some good solutions?

Hopefully haven't annoyed anyone being so specific (I have searched, honest) or pre-empted another battle. Wouldn't it be nice to have a thread with simple opinios and suggestions without any adversarial nonsense? ;-)

Hope everyone's having a great break (or at least enjoying the season if you're working).

Cheers,

Mark

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Reply By: Wilk0 - Wednesday, Dec 30, 2009 at 09:26

Wednesday, Dec 30, 2009 at 09:26

Hi Mark,

My only advise is to get rid of the Waeco and grab an Engel lol (sorry had to do it)

Cheer Wilko

AnswerID: 396908

Follow Up By: Silkwood - Wednesday, Dec 30, 2009 at 10:19

Wednesday, Dec 30, 2009 at 10:19

Trust me, Wilco, a Waeco is frugal compared to mine!

Cheers,

Mark

FollowupID: 665644

Follow Up By: Maîneÿ . . .- Wednesday, Dec 30, 2009 at 14:32

Wednesday, Dec 30, 2009 at 14:32

Have to love them Liemack's

at least they work like your fridge at home :)

Maîneÿ . . .

FollowupID: 665670

Follow Up By: Boobook2 - Wednesday, Dec 30, 2009 at 19:01

Wednesday, Dec 30, 2009 at 19:01

Actually Wilco, if you genuinely researched it a little, you would see that Waeco have overtaken Engel some time ago. Engel just charges you for the brand.

Less noise, and power draw, and better insulating performance over 30 degrees. That's from someone that has owned both and currently uses neither, due to the fact that they are both budget fridges with many limitations.

FollowupID: 665717

Follow Up By: Wilk0 - Thursday, Dec 31, 2009 at 17:35

Thursday, Dec 31, 2009 at 17:35

Hi Boobook,

It was said in jest. I dont need to genuinely research it. It comes from getting old, Its called experience. lol

I know they are amongst the budget( although not that cheap) versions of portable fridges.

IMHO Engels are far superior in the construction and strength whilst the Waeco's have the better compressor.

If I had the money I'd get a trailblazer with 125mm insulation and to compressors but alas dont have the readys.

Cheers Wilko

FollowupID: 665874

Follow Up By: Wilk0 - Thursday, Dec 31, 2009 at 17:37

Thursday, Dec 31, 2009 at 17:37

Doh should read "two compressors".See i'm getting old

FollowupID: 665875

Reply By: Von Helga - Wednesday, Dec 30, 2009 at 10:29

Wednesday, Dec 30, 2009 at 10:29

Silkwood,
Does the article on this site re Power and charging not give you the answer.
I'll assume you are going to mount the second battery in your car and your third could be connected via the Anderson plug when required.
I also assume you have done the calculations for current draw and applicable solar cells required for that draw??
With respect to the batteries you buy.
DONOT be frugal with the batteries, buy the biggest AH's you can given the physical size (for mounting) and cost that way you have the power to allow the State of Charge of the batteries to remain as high as possible for as long as possible this combined with the frugal use of power reduces the amount of effort required by the solar panels (or AC charger) to replace that power.
Cheers
Trevor

AnswerID: 396923

Follow Up By: Silkwood - Wednesday, Dec 30, 2009 at 10:55

Wednesday, Dec 30, 2009 at 10:55

Trevor, I know the basics, it's the detail and the selection that evades me. Everyone has a suggestion, but there's always someone telling you why that won't work. Yes I've looked at the sections on solar, power & batteries. I just want to know what type of controller (& size) I need, do I also need some kind of dc-dc charger? Is one type of VSR better than another, but at what cost? Maybe I need to be more specific about each section but to be honest, I thought If I asked genreally I would get a few variations that would allow me to make a decision. I'm not after "the best option", I don't think it exists, just a few options which will work well, with the least problems, for a reasonable cost. Don't want much, hey? But I'll bet that's what most who ask on here are after, not necessarilly the specific details of each amperage won or lost.

FollowupID: 665648

Follow Up By: Silkwood - Wednesday, Dec 30, 2009 at 10:58

Wednesday, Dec 30, 2009 at 10:58

Each Amp, lost, not amperage!! I'll get it right one day. Thanks Trevor, good point about the batteries, more storage equals less need to charge, yes? Will a standard alternator cope with the extra load though, and will I be able to get a system which allows each battery to charge well?

Cheers,

Mark

FollowupID: 665649

Reply By: Alloy c/t - Wednesday, Dec 30, 2009 at 11:20

Wednesday, Dec 30, 2009 at 11:20

PL2020 Steca solar panel regulator + AGM battery /ies of a size to suit your pockets [$$] LARGE. constant drain from your fridge would suggest Fullriver HGL rather than deepcycle..8mm sq wire as a minimum [ core wire, not including sheath] ,50amp Andersons to connect the lot.... Simple /Quality and Cost effective. ....

AnswerID: 396931

Follow Up By: Silkwood - Wednesday, Dec 30, 2009 at 11:57

Wednesday, Dec 30, 2009 at 11:57

Thanks Alloy, that's the sort of info I'm after. Am I right in thinking with ample solar and a decent controller I won't need a separate charger? Also, I was of the understanding the HGL batteries were less suited for regular lower draw? My fridge is high need, but not that bad! Incidentally, it's a Liemack (there, I've said it!). Being a 240v compressor it is less efficient (power wise) than most, drawing more. Mind you, when up north in regular extremely hot conditions it kept fish frozen and beer cold when others were struggling (used a hell of a lot of power doing it though!). That's one reason why I don't believe you can say there is a "best" option. Thanks again for the info, I've heard good things about the Steca controllers.

Cheers,

Mark

FollowupID: 665652

Follow Up By: Alloy c/t - Wednesday, Dec 30, 2009 at 12:55

Wednesday, Dec 30, 2009 at 12:55

With the panels u have now and procuring = 164 watts. Suggest that in favorable conditions you will get upto 10amp input [greatlly variable]. Doubt that your fridge uses that per hr although could be ,LOL, my 15lt Engle+ 80lt Waeco average out at 45+63 amp hrs per 24hrs. I say the HGL rather than DC as even though both are AGM the HGL can be used as a starter and has a quicker recharge capabillity than the same size AGM DC, as for less suited for regular lower draw I only know that my 1st Fullriver 90amp AGM HGL was bought in Dec 2001 and still performs as new.

FollowupID: 665658

Follow Up By: R&J Batteries - Wednesday, Jan 27, 2010 at 15:29

Wednesday, Jan 27, 2010 at 15:29

Fullriver DC series is designed for deep-cycle usage. The HGL series is a general purpose range with a shorter cycle life than the DC range. The new DC120-12B has more than enough current to start most vehicles in an emergency at 820CCA.

Dave

FollowupID: 670623

Follow Up By: Alloy c/t - Wednesday, Jan 27, 2010 at 16:42

Wednesday, Jan 27, 2010 at 16:42

Dave @R+J HGL shorter life cycle ?? Bought in Jan 02 and still going strong. Cost price back then was just under $200 , divide that by the 8 yrs sofar = $25.00 per year , shorter life cycle ,lol , by the way its been under the bonnet in all that time.

FollowupID: 670640

Reply By: Maîneÿ . . .- Wednesday, Dec 30, 2009 at 14:58

Wednesday, Dec 30, 2009 at 14:58

Silkwood,
as a previous 50 Lt liemack F/F user and now a 70 Lt Reefer F/F user
my advise is use two (2) QUALITY 100 ah *DEEP CYCLE* AGM's
as much solar power as required and a quality Solar regulator that has trickle charge and also pulse mode

I use:
200 Watts Solar power
200 Amp Hour *AGM DEEP CYCLE* battery system
15 Amp Steca solar regulator
Rotronics electronic battery isolator
32mm sq battery cable

My AGM's have never run under 12 Volts - at any time :)

Image Could Not Be FoundMaîneÿ . . .

AnswerID: 396960

Follow Up By: Silkwood - Wednesday, Dec 30, 2009 at 15:43

Wednesday, Dec 30, 2009 at 15:43

Thanks Mainey. Is the 15 amp controller enough? Some have advised 20amp. Also, will that allow me to remove one of the AGMs aftert trips and still have the correct charge going to the single "recreational" battery?

Someone else has advised me to go for an MPPT controller, which they valued at around $200. While I've read MPPT controllers are better, I'm not convinced budget units will do the job (90-97% efficiency?). Any info on this?

Finally (for now;-) ) I already have a built in controller on my existing panels. Will it hurt to simply connect htis to the new panels?

Cheers,

Mark

FollowupID: 665679

Follow Up By: Maîneÿ . . .- Wednesday, Dec 30, 2009 at 16:15

Wednesday, Dec 30, 2009 at 16:15

Mark,
A 15 Amp regulator is overkill for your stated proposed system, as it will work with 10 Amp reg.
Yes, you can remove one battery and have all solar charge going to the remaining recreational battery without doing any damage.

I bought my Steca when it was new technology, some yrs ago, I'm still happy with it as it maintains my AGM batteries 100% charged, so no need to outlay more $$ on different technology that will probably give the same result.
My AGM's never get below 12v even when running a 70 Lt F/F that draws ~10 Amps and various other accessories, so they are maintained correctly.

The "builtin controller" has to be able to manage the 4 panels - will it ??
I would (probably) remove it and wire all panels via a solar regulator that has all the benefits needed to maintain the battery system in 100% charged condition.

Maîneÿ . . .

FollowupID: 665685

Reply By: Member - John and Val - Wednesday, Dec 30, 2009 at 18:05

Wednesday, Dec 30, 2009 at 18:05

Mark,

You want direct answers to vague questions!!! Especially we need to know your expected electrical demand. The fridge is obviously your big load, but what current does it draw? (If it's a 3 way fridge, forget trying to run it on 12V batteries.) How long do you want to be away from mains battery charging - hours, days, weeks...??? Suggest read our blog Electricity for Camping which goes into defining your requirements and how to meet them in some detail.

If you can give us a better idea of your requirements I'm sure the expertise and experience on this forum will be much better able to help.

Cheers

John

J and V
"Not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be counted."
- Albert Einstein

Lifetime Member
My Profile My Blog Send Message

AnswerID: 396979

Follow Up By: Silkwood - Wednesday, Dec 30, 2009 at 18:39

Wednesday, Dec 30, 2009 at 18:39

John, you're dead right, I'm being too vague! I sort of did this on purpose, as I've found if I'm too definitive the replies are rigid, absolutely convinced they have "The Answer" and are often bombastic. In fairness many have helped me before and have resisted the urge to tell me what's right and what's wrong (yourself included, so thank you).

I have read (and re-read) your article and it's great, but I often see contradictory information on here so I'm after a bit of varied opinion which will help me make up my mind. For instance you mention the need for a charger, yet many say I won't need one. I'm confused.

I'm not exactly sure of the draw from my fridge but have heard the figure of 62amp hrs (Mainey, perhaps you can help me out on this one). It's not a three way. Judging from your article I'd need around 75amp hrs at the most. Additionally, I'd like to be able to stay out as long as possible. We don't use many gadgets, just fridge & lighting, with the odd camera battery charge. I think I need: another 100w of solar, taking me to 164W; a good controller (15A? MPPT?) to manage the charging and a good VSR system plus one or more (AGM- HGL?) batteries, I thought 1x100a + 1x80A. Does this sound right? I'd love your opinion on the MPPT type controllers as I've been offered one as part of a package but it is one of the less expensive units. Are these still any good? Would you suggest this over other types?

Once again, thanks for your input, I value the opinion of a quite few of the members here, including yourself.

Cheers,

Mark

FollowupID: 665715

Follow Up By: Member - John and Val - Wednesday, Dec 30, 2009 at 19:23

Wednesday, Dec 30, 2009 at 19:23

Mark,

Thank you for your (most flattering!) reply. I understand now where you're coming from.

The key data needed is the likely demand from your fridge. Apart from that, your needs seem pretty similar to ours and the numbers used in our blog should apply. We have 145W of solar panels, similar to what you are proposing. In our case, we use about 35 amphours per day, 2/3 being for the fridge. IF your fridge needs twice as much as our 40 litre Waeko, you'd be looking for about 60 amphours per day.

Your idea of 2 batteries is good, though IF the 60 amphours per day is about right, I'd look for a full 200 amphour capacity to give you a full 2 days supply without sunlight or burning fuel. It will be important to push charge in from the vehicle, perhaps calling for a stepup 12V charger (arrid etc). 164W of solar panels will also make an important contribution. An MMPT controller will make better use of the solar capacity - I don't use one (yet!) so can't speak from experience. There are those on this forum who can offer informed comment, but my impression is that performance and cost are not directly related.

Sorry I can't be more specific. Send me a MM if you'd like to discuss off line.

Cheers

John

J and V
"Not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be counted."
- Albert Einstein

Lifetime Member
My Profile My Blog Send Message

FollowupID: 665721

Reply By: Honky - Thursday, Dec 31, 2009 at 11:21

Thursday, Dec 31, 2009 at 11:21

If you have not already done so try www.delicaclub.com
They should be able to assist in the set up of these vehicles

Honky

AnswerID: 397060

Follow Up By: Silkwood - Thursday, Dec 31, 2009 at 19:19

Thursday, Dec 31, 2009 at 19:19

Thanks Honky. I'm a member of the Delica site, that's where I got all the information on them before purchasing. It's a great site, very knowledgable people and incredibly helpful. For this topic however I think the members here have a broader range of experience.

I have picked up some great ideas from the Delica site though. It's surprising where people take these tall, skinny Tarago-lookalikes! Fantastic vans, exceptional for travelling, particularly anyone with kids who doesn't want to tow. Mind you, there's usually just myself and Lisa, my partner. Guess it leaves more room for beer!

Cheers,

Mark

FollowupID: 665891

Reply By: Member - Mike DID - Wednesday, Jan 27, 2010 at 15:54

Wednesday, Jan 27, 2010 at 15:54

Sizing of the Solar Regulator is easy - if your panels put out a maximum of 9 amps, you need a Regulator rated at greater than 9 amps.

You can get a basic regulator with no display or one that tells you everything - but you'll get exacty the same charge in the battery. Although you really need something that displays panel current so you kearn how to position the panels for maximum current.

One that displays battery voltage or estimates state of charge will help lengthen battery life and prevent warm beer by telling you when to use a Generator or the Alternator to supply more charge.

If you spend lots more, you can get an MPPT regulator which will put up to 20% more current into the battery.

AnswerID: 401319

Reply By: Member - Mike DID - Wednesday, Jan 27, 2010 at 15:56

Wednesday, Jan 27, 2010 at 15:56

For the battery, your first choice is between Wetcell and AGM.

An AGM is dearer, but will charge faster and need less babying for a long life.

AnswerID: 401320

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Power set-up for new vehicle

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Silkwood

Reply By: Wilk0 - Wednesday, Dec 30, 2009 at 09:26

Follow Up By: Silkwood - Wednesday, Dec 30, 2009 at 10:19

Follow Up By: Maîneÿ . . .- Wednesday, Dec 30, 2009 at 14:32

Follow Up By: Boobook2 - Wednesday, Dec 30, 2009 at 19:01

Follow Up By: Wilk0 - Thursday, Dec 31, 2009 at 17:35

Follow Up By: Wilk0 - Thursday, Dec 31, 2009 at 17:37

Reply By: Von Helga - Wednesday, Dec 30, 2009 at 10:29

Follow Up By: Silkwood - Wednesday, Dec 30, 2009 at 10:55

Follow Up By: Silkwood - Wednesday, Dec 30, 2009 at 10:58

Reply By: Alloy c/t - Wednesday, Dec 30, 2009 at 11:20

Follow Up By: Silkwood - Wednesday, Dec 30, 2009 at 11:57

Follow Up By: Alloy c/t - Wednesday, Dec 30, 2009 at 12:55

Follow Up By: R&J Batteries - Wednesday, Jan 27, 2010 at 15:29

Follow Up By: Alloy c/t - Wednesday, Jan 27, 2010 at 16:42

Reply By: Maîneÿ . . .- Wednesday, Dec 30, 2009 at 14:58

Follow Up By: Silkwood - Wednesday, Dec 30, 2009 at 15:43

Follow Up By: Maîneÿ . . .- Wednesday, Dec 30, 2009 at 16:15

Reply By: Member - John and Val - Wednesday, Dec 30, 2009 at 18:05

Follow Up By: Silkwood - Wednesday, Dec 30, 2009 at 18:39

Follow Up By: Member - John and Val - Wednesday, Dec 30, 2009 at 19:23

Reply By: Honky - Thursday, Dec 31, 2009 at 11:21

Follow Up By: Silkwood - Thursday, Dec 31, 2009 at 19:19

Reply By: Member - Mike DID - Wednesday, Jan 27, 2010 at 15:54

Reply By: Member - Mike DID - Wednesday, Jan 27, 2010 at 15:56

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